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Just picked up a Canon 7, moved from a P
Old 4 Weeks Ago   #1
kb244
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Cool Just picked up a Canon 7, moved from a P

Few years back I sold my P which I absolutely loved but needed the money.

The only rangefinder I kept around for a while was a Fed 2A and three russian lens. (though I really should have kept my CVs and vintage Canon LTMs ... but money... )

So when I went to reacquire a P, it seemed like the price was still up there considering. So I decided to see how I would like the 7, seeing as it's basically a P upgrade with a meter and different style viewfinder.

This one I picked up, while it did have a dent in the back corner by the rewind (possibly dropped, especially with a little ding by the lever), which was quickly resolved by the seller with a price adjustment.

Fortunately everything else appears to work, shutter speeds, meter, timer, advance, rangefinder coupling, viewfinder frames, etc. And I just adjusted the vertical alignment ever so slightly (was mainly lined up at less than 3 feet, but vertically off elsewhere, now it's spot-on for everything a little under 3 feet up to infinity, with only a sliver off the vertical under 3 feet). Coupling seemed good when I checked against a ground glass.

I haven't had a chance to go out and about with it just yet, but I have a feeling I'm going to like it just as much as the P. The P will always have a special place in my heart, but I think the 7 will grow on me just as much.

Right now I just have :

- Fed Industar-10 50/3.5 Collapsible (gaffer tape just behind the front to keep it from going back in too far when adapted on my olympus, fits the 7 collapsed as long as I mount extended first, and keep the "FED" logo at 12'clock when collapsing)

Was super-hazy and very very low contrast when I had it for a few years, the just recently decided to go ahead and open it up (very easy, two elements thru the rear spanner, cleaned up, no haze, good sharpness, decent out of camera contrast). Seems to work best on my Fed 2A.

- Industar-61L/D 55/2.8 which doesn't have the greatest focus ring gets a tad stiff going down to 2m or closer. Originally I thought there might be some kind of growth inside the lens, so like the I10 I disassembled it thru the rear pretty easily as before, cleaned which mostly seemed like dust, re-assembled and seemed fine. (Seems to have better contrast than the I10, but not as sharp).

- Jupiter 11 135/4 My favorite telephoto even on my Olympus E-M5 (micro-4/3rd) sharp as a tack at f/4 and good contrast.

But soon I'll have a Canon Serenar 35mm f/2.8 Mk I to cover my wide angle need on the LTM (would love to get the CV Ultron 35/1.7 back, but $$$, so I'll see how the Canon 35/2.8 does, least aesthetically it'll match the 7 like a charm)

Just thinking if I continue down the path of re-acquisition if I should try to get the Canon 50/1.8 Serenar I originally had with my P, or maybe look at getting a post-1950s Summarit 50mm, or perhaps some other variant of a faster 50 (f/2 or faster).

Without further ado, some pictures I shot of the 7 with the Industar-61L/D attached (Will do the same bit different setting once I get the Serenar).











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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #2
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Looks good Karl. If you want genuine and appropriate Canon lenses from the period of the 7 I can recommend the Canon 50/1.4 (1959-1971). I have one and it's an excellent lens which would suit the size and look of the 7.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #3
Jake Mongey
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Welcome to the world of the canon 7. Ive been using mine for 3 years now and its reliable and fun to shoot with every time.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcfingon View Post
Looks good Karl. If you want genuine and appropriate Canon lenses from the period of the 7 I can recommend the Canon 50/1.4 (1959-1971). I have one and it's an excellent lens which would suit the size and look of the 7.
Hrm, certainly looks it. http://global.canon/en/c-museum/product/s46.html

Looks to be a tad lighter than the 50/1.8 Serenar. They replace some parts with plastic?

Seems to be averaging around 100 more than the 50/1.8 (both the Mk 1 and 2)

This one seems a little confusing, they say serenar, but it's not chrome. Looks like a Mk II... but it has 8 aperture blades. Not 9.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXC-Canon-Se.../132035998582?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #5
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I moved from a Canon 7 to a Canon L2.
I miss the projected frame-lines but the Canon 7 is a bit to large for me. Plus the meter on mine was busted.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nukecoke View Post
I moved from a Canon 7 to a Canon L2.
I miss the projected frame-lines but the Canon 7 is a bit to large for me. Plus the meter on mine was busted.
I would probably go P if went backwards, but that L2 does seem like it's lighter/smaller than either.

I'm looking at 495 grams for my Fed 2A (without lens) and and 640g for the Canon 7 (without lens).

Funny enough, the Canon 7 is heavier than my Universal Mercury II (with the Tricor 35/2.7 lens, it's a 1945 half-framer that still works accurately), which weighs in at 590g. Bigger too when I put em side by side, outside of the hump on top going taller than the 7.



That reminds me. I need to get a strap onto my 7. On my P I used to use a rather 70-ish strap ( was kind of the way to go for me lol).
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #7
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Noticed that some of the wiggling from the I61 was not cuz of the lens, the bayonet/screw mount ring on the body itself was loose. I tightened down the screws. Hopefully no more surprises on this "excellent condition" body.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #8
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I'm using a P now, but I really did enjoy using my old 7, a black repaint that somebody had removed the meter from. Shouldn't have sold it...

Enjoy yours, it looks great!
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabelsound View Post
I'm using a P now, but I really did enjoy using my old 7, a black repaint that somebody had removed the meter from. Shouldn't have sold it...

Enjoy yours, it looks great!
A repaint sounds cool. The loss of a meter would kind of irk me.

Funny thing is, I think I would feel more irked at a meter removed, than just simply dead. (weird how that goes).

What are you pairing with your P currently?

And for general audience : Any suggestions on an 85/90? (like maybe the Jupiter-9 80/2?)
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #10
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The chrome 85/2 Canon can be found for a low price. They are heavy and slow to focus but good optics. The late black 85/1.8 is good but no better than the Canon FL 85/1.8 which it shares optics with.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #11
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In response to a few questions that you've asked along the way:

1) The Canon 50 1.4 is all metal and glass. There is no plastic on the lens (except the rear lens cap, the original one is similar to bakelite).

2) If the lens mounting flange is loose, even though you've tightened it down, inspect your images closely. You need to know if the image is in focus or not (film to flange distance may be affected), or if one corner or corners are sharp (flange is not square on the body, but canted).

3) The Leitz Elmar 90mm f/4 is a common, good, inexpensive 90mm lens. Due to age, some may have haze, but these aren't difficult to clean out.

Canon lenses are good, but the old chrome ones are VERY HEAVY!. I have the 85mm f/1.9. I hardly use it due to weight.

I've never had luck with a Jupiter 9. Often they are meant for a different film to flange distance than Leica LTM. They may be in focus at infinity, but then as you focus closer they get more out of focus. Some experts such as Brian Sweeney and Kim Coxon have managed to cure this by internal shims, but I'd pass on this lens.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #12
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Used to have the 50/1.8 Serenar, so I know heavy.

Well... ran into a disappointing situation, but not all that unexpected.

Had a couple test color rolls (for the mercury, fed, and 7) , and it used to be I would just drop it off at Meijer like I did last year for "negatives only" and pick it up later in the day.

None of the stores locally seem develop 35mm locally anymore they don't even have the little fujitsu processors anymore. Not even most of the drug stores, just they send it out and wait a week.


As I said, unexpected, but not that surprising, and usually I only use some cheap left over C41 rolls for quick tests, before I bother with B&W.

In regard to the mounting flange, it appears level across, but I can measure each sides/corners depth off the body with my digital calipers to be sure. (the ground glass/loupe test seemed ok).

But unless there's a place locally that can develop my C41 rolls, it'll be a little while longer before I can see results.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #13
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the P looks sleeker.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #14
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Quote:
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the P looks sleeker.
Can't disagree with you from an aesthetic standpoint.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #15
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Quote:
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Hrm, certainly looks it. http://global.canon/en/c-museum/product/s46.html

Looks to be a tad lighter than the 50/1.8 Serenar. They replace some parts with plastic?

Seems to be averaging around 100 more than the 50/1.8 (both the Mk 1 and 2)

This one seems a little confusing, they say serenar, but it's not chrome. Looks like a Mk II... but it has 8 aperture blades. Not 9.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXC-Canon-Se.../132035998582?
It's not a Serenar, but according to the book I have (Kitchingman - Canon M39 Rangefinder Lenses) it has the same optics as the 50/1.8 Serenar did. He lists 8 versions of the 50/1.8 from 1951 to 1975. The big change was the alloy body in 1956, which the 50/1.4 also has. That's why it's lighter than the earlier Serenars.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #16
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Here is my 1950 Serenar 50/1.9 on my 1951 Leica IIIf with Kitchingman's book as a background. It's a lovely lens in spite of not having as good a reputation as the 50/1.8 Serenar. My recommendation is only buy lenses that the seller specifically says have no haze or fungus. If the aperture oil sits on the glass of these lenses for a long time it can etch them and they can't be cleaned easily.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcfingon View Post
Here is my 1950 Serenar 50/1.9 on my 1951 Leica IIIf with Kitchingman's book as a background. It's a lovely lens in spite of not having as good a reputation as the 50/1.8 Serenar. My recommendation is only buy lenses that the seller specifically says have no haze or fungus. If the aperture oil sits on the glass of these lenses for a long time it can etch them and they can't be cleaned easily.
That's what I been doing to date. My feeling is, if I get something with fungus... fungus is alive... fungus can migrate.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #18
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By the way, side note : who in this day and age could CLA a working Canon 7 into tip-top shape?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb244 View Post
By the way, side note : who in this day and age could CLA a working Canon 7 into tip-top shape?
Youxin Ye.
http://www.yyecamera.com/
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #20
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Noted. Not sure where the 7 would fall on the price list. But seems like either way it's gonna be at least twice what i paid for the 7 if I need it. (but then it'd be like new again in a manner of speaking)

http://www.yyecamera.com/price_list.html

Sent him an email to inquire on approximate pricing in case I want it to be looked over and fine-tuned.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #21
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Quote:
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I don't believe Youxin Ye works on the Canon 7 or 7s. His website suggests he only works on earlier Canons.

Jim B.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinaw View Post
I don't believe Youxin Ye works on the Canon 7 or 7s. His website suggests he only works on earlier Canons.

Jim B.
Though the P is mentioned. Which aside from the light meter, in theory could be addressed in a similar manner to checking shutter accuracy and RF coupling.

But course I'll find out soon enough when he returns my inquiry.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #23
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Mark Hama is the go-to canon RF guy, right? Is he still active?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #24
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Both my 7 and L2 came with working and accurate shutter, despite that they haven't been serviced for decades, that's what I like about those Canon RF. For shutter speed accuracy you can do the display test if you can find Andy old CRT display/TV.

The only problem those two cameras had was fungus in finder, which is quite common in unserviced cameras from Japan. I opened top plates and cleaned myself, and in the end they became fine shooters and were joy to use. 7's finder is easier to clean than the V series models. There are detailed images showing how to remove top plates on 7 somewhere on Flickr if I remember right.

For rangefinder focus accuracy test you can do the ground glass/matte-finish tape + magnifier trick.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nukecoke View Post
For rangefinder focus accuracy test you can do the ground glass/matte-finish tape + magnifier trick.
I have a split/micro focus screen out of an old Minolta X7000 (shutter all froze up etc, I also stole it's lug rings for the 7), I did check that briefly (with gaffer tape to hold it) against the two russian lens I have that seem to coincide with the double image though the matte fresnel isn't' that easy to see depending on my angle of view with my 30X loupe.

I'm wondering though, if I get my viewing angle just right on the tripod, if the split/micro ring would function as intended to checking focus.

edit: The Serenar 35/2.8 should be here tomorrow.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #26
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Not much distance in here, but I figured I would try the close focusing check (the Industar-61L/D can focus a little closer than it's 1M mark).

I stuck the camera on a tripod, bought it up to about eye level (sitting), leveled it,
measured off exactly 100cm (from black surface to the film plane line on top of the camera).

For the first bit I focused on "4x5" on the magazine since I could clearly see the font's edges and adjusted the vertical double image.
I didn't mess with horizontal because it seems that the RF merged image coincides with the ground glass.



Then I focused on the left edge of the ruler since it was the easiest to see for horizontal merging (and flatter up against the black) roughly near the corner of the magazine.



While the focus screen and RF seem to match up, the focus scale on the lens is a little off seeing as it's supposed to be 1M.
I know I can adjust it, I just can't remember the details on how, only that it required disassembling the lens a bit just to correct the helical, but I'm not going to worry about it since the RF coupling seems to be accurate. (it'd be another matter if it was correctly at 1M, and showed focused in the RF... but then was actually out of focus).

And a comparison to a purposely out of focus screen, where it shows two rulers side by side in the rangefinder, and can see the split/micro prism at work.



My guess is when I get the 35/2.8 Serenar tomorrow, I'll get the same results, but at least the focus scale on the lens will match up with what I see.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #27
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If the focus scale on the Canon doesn't match up with the actual distance, and the rangefinder is wrong too, then the problem may be that there is a shim missing from inside the lens. My 50/1.9 Serenar was missing a 0.28mm (from memory) shim, presumably lost when the lens was cleaned before my ownership. I replaced it with a shim from a Jupiter-8 lens which was surprisingly exactly the right dimensions.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcfingon View Post
If the focus scale on the Canon doesn't match up with the actual distance, and the rangefinder is wrong too, then the problem may be that there is a shim missing from inside the lens. My 50/1.9 Serenar was missing a 0.28mm (from memory) shim, presumably lost when the lens was cleaned before my ownership. I replaced it with a shim from a Jupiter-8 lens which was surprisingly exactly the right dimensions.

Well here's to fingers crossing when I get the Serenar tomorrow.

It seems that the distance on both the I10 and I61L/D appear to be the same when focused in the rangefinder with a confirmed distance of 1 meter from the focus plane (the I10 doesn't have a 1,1m mark, but it's a little over 1m, but not yet 1,25m, the I61L/D shows as above).

Since it's two russian lens that have nearly matched scale readings, but the RF and ground glass match (which means if focused with the RF it'll be focused on the film), then I'm wondering if it's an FSU thing. Basically means when scale focusing I would be off from accurate.

It'd be easier to check if I had a 50/1.8 or 1.4 when doing the ground glass method. Down the road I guess.

Edit:

Just thought I'd try the same thing on my old 1955 Fed-2A. Though a little harder to do since there's no tripod mount when you take the back of the camera off. So I used the tripod as a guide to how fall away I should have the camera, focused on the ruler in the rangefinder (much smaller rangefinder spot to see), then louped the ground glass.

Seems the lens when RF focused , the lens shows exactly 1M as expected... but the focus on the ground glass is slightly off. Seems my FED might actually be off and when it was serviced they simply matched the RF to the lens distance (probably assumed the lens scale was already accurate), rather than checking the result off the ground glass.

Are there local places that sell strips of decent quality frosted glass that can be used as a ground glass? (probably higher quality than the fresnel rings around the minolta focus screen).

edit #2:

My 135mm framelines are off. When trying my jupiter-11 (which doesn't correctly focus compared to the rangefinder double image, ie: RF focus = ground glass not.) I noticed that the edge of the frame line in the viewfinder don't match the image I get on the ground glass. Seems like the 135mm frame is about 20% too far to the right, and 15% too far down. meaning if I put something at the top left corner of the frame line, it'll be 15% further into the picture vertically and 20% further into the picture horizontally.

I noticed the same framing issue with the I61 (55mm using 50mm frame lines) and I10 (50mm), the shift isn't as bad as the 135 frame line but noticeable that it doesn't match up to what's on the film plane.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #29
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Confirming Jim B's comments on Youxin Ye's work on Canon 7s. Just had an internet chat with him about this earlier this month. He will not work on 7s.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #30
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To visually illustrate what I was saying in my last post :



I was curious if the seller had experienced this (Since it arrived to me selected to 135, so thought *maybe* he could have used it with a 135) I asked mainly three questions, 1) what lens was usually on the camera when he was using it, 2) if he noticed that the frame in the viewfinder was off by about 25%-ish meaning someone on the edge of the frame would be cut in half. and 3) if he knew anyone in the US that could CLA a 7.

His answer to all three was : "I'm really not sure on any of your questions. I'm sorry. "

Quote:
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Confirming Jim B's comments on Youxin Ye's work on Canon 7s. Just had an internet chat with him about this earlier this month. He will not work on 7s.
Yep, he responded to my inquiry a little bit ago stating such.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #31
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Got the 35/2.8 Serenar today. Seems rather clean, not too heavy, kind of tiny looking (compared to what I would normally have). Only issue I saw when I got it is the geared ring right next to the focus knob was loose where it was freely rotating/unscrewing, til I tightened it back clockwise. So in theory I could do two finger focus on that ring, but if it gets stiff (like it does around 10-15 feet on the scale) it could start unscrewing instead of continuing to turn.



I also picked up a set of screwdrivers for the smaller precision heads, and decided to go ahead and adjust the rangefinders horizontal alignment to the Serenar's. (since I trust that more than I trust two russian lens that sort of wobble when turning the focus).

Final results (based on the focus screen/ground glass off back):

Canon Serenar 35/2.8 : spot on when focused in rangefinder

Industar-61L/D 55/2.8 : spot on

Industar-10 50/3.5 : off a little (requires a slight counter-clockwise turn to get it spot on, making the RF double image slightly slivered)

Jupiter-11 135/4 : nada, too much out of focus to use on the 7. Wondering if it's one of those FSU oddities where it was designed for a LTM-mount SLR or something.

After the horizontal adjustment, also went back over and re-did the vertical alignment. The Serenar isn't *perfect* in terms of what shows up on the distance scale, but it's within margin. For example focused to something exactly 3.5 feet away, it shows up on the scale as closer to 4 feet. Or something about 25 feet it shows as roughly 20 feet on the scale. But at least the focus screen check is spot on when the RF is focused.

Which the combination of horizontal and vertical alignment may have adjusted the parallax at the same time.

Cell phone shots of the frame lines versus the coverage out of the film window.





The ground glass above is tad fuzzy only because I set the ground glass into the opening rather than flush against the chrome rails (which puts it closer to the lens than the negatives would be), so it was only to check the composition versus the frame lines. Can see they're still off, but not too terribly bad.

A shot of the focus screen as I would normally have it when checking the focus, angled so that it's level against the chrome lines making it the same distance from the lens as the negatives would be. (I need to get a ground glass strip, or make something bigger).



Managed to find a store local to develop the test color rolls I shot previously, so will have those tomorrow. (mostly tested off the FED and Mercury, with two rolls of the 7... which I expect will be out of focus especially on the jupiter-11 before I realized just how off it was).

Side Note : I noticed that the Serenar when adapted to my Olympus via a LTM to Micro-4/3rd adapter (same one I use for my J-11) kills off my close focusing capabilities, the shortest distance I can focus is about 6 to 7 feet from a subject. And something that is off to infinity shows up as around 25 feet on the scale (or saying something 20 feet away is 5 feet from me).

At least
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #32
AlwaysOnAuto
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You're going to like that little 35mm Canon lens. I have one like it and use it all the time on my Sony's. Great little lens.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #33
kb244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysOnAuto View Post
You're going to like that little 35mm Canon lens. I have one like it and use it all the time on my Sony's. Great little lens.
On my Olympus the focusing distance is much too great of practical use unless all my subjects are further than 7 feet from me (it won't focus closer than that). Though not quite as bad as my Jupiter-11 which can't do closer than 12 feet (the lens minimum focusing distance is 2.5 meters, roughly 8ft, so not getting closer than 10~12 adapted seems normal... but going from 3.5 feet to 8 seems off-ish).

Funny thing is when I was doing some non-scientific testing of it earlier today in a car ride. Focusing on something way off in the distance (ie: something that infinity should have caught on the lens), anything past 20 feet is out of focus, seems like 20 feet is the infinity mark when adapted.

For example focusing on this trash can while waiting for them to pick up chinese food, the lens said it was 8 feet away... that would only be to the front of the hood at best.

Rather crisp though.

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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #34
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... shutter clicks makes my framelines jump. Made my 50 jump a bit to the left on one of the test clicks.

edit: if I look thru the viewfinder and slowly rotate from landscape to portrait frame lines (all of them) will sort of jitter over a little, and getting over into portrait mode (right side of the camera facing down), I saw the 35mm frame line shoot up towards the left. o_O

added video :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGmnMZIx2sI

EDIT

I self repaired it. It was a prism knocked loose as shown at the end of this thread. http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...d.php?t=159013

I also went ahead and fixed the shutter selection knob so that the film speed doesn't slide when trying to set it. (it was missing one of the two short screws, so I stole one of the three screws off of the A[dot]R dial).
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