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RFF Subject Organization
Old 09-21-2016   #1
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RFF Subject Organization

Quote:
I noticed that there is no Leica SL dedicated section on RFF forums.
I must confess that I struggle to see the relevance of an SL section on a Rangefinder Forum. As good a camera as it may be, it is an EVIL camera only linked to the M system by an adapter, as many cameras are.
Maybe the Bartender can lump it into the QXT subforum, but it begs the question: where is the S section and Leica Cine section, what about Panaleicas and shouldn't Sinar be included as well, and shouldn't each Leica system have its own section?
IMO that would rather dilute the forum brand and interest.
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Old 09-21-2016   #2
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Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
... it is an EVIL camera only linked to the M system by an adapter, as many cameras are.
an those many cameras have their sub forum on RFF
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Old 09-21-2016   #3
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Well, if RFF wants to become a general camera forum , like for instance GetDpi forums, it should change its name.
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Old 09-22-2016   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
I must confess that I struggle to see the relevance of an SL section on a Rangefinder Forum. As good a camera as it may be, it is an EVIL camera only linked to the M system by an adapter, as many cameras are.
Maybe the Bartender can lump it into the QXT subforum, but it begs the question: where is the S section and Leica Cine section, what about Panaleicas and shouldn't Sinar be included as well, and shouldn't each Leica system have its own section?
IMO that would rather dilute the forum brand and interest.
J,

I see your point, but then again why the huge Sony A7 section?

You are correct: it is an evil camera. LOL.

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Old 09-22-2016   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
I must confess that I struggle to see the relevance of an SL section on a Rangefinder Forum.
This is only a rangefinder forum in name at this point. If you want it to be RFF only, this site will not do as well.
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Old 09-22-2016   #6
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Yep - I know. But is it not diluting its relevance and USP this way? I mean, we have GetDpi Forums, Fred Miranda, DPreview, LuLa, etc, This way it becomes one of many.
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Old 09-22-2016   #7
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Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
Yep - I know. But is it not diluting its relevance and USP this way? I mean, we have GetDpi Forums, Fred Miranda, DPreview, LuLa, etc, This way it becomes one of many.
Jaap,

Again I see your point. Understand that I'm in the middle here, where the line has been crossed, but do we want to further dilute a great forum.

I think the strongest asset of RFF is that it is kind of a "Safe Place."

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Old 09-23-2016   #8
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Maybe the forum should be structured more, like an RF part and a general part.
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Old 09-23-2016   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
I must confess that I struggle to see the relevance of an SL section on a Rangefinder Forum. As good a camera as it may be, it is an EVIL camera only linked to the M system by an adapter, as many cameras are.
Maybe the Bartender can lump it into the QXT subforum, but it begs the question: where is the S section and Leica Cine section, what about Panaleicas and shouldn't Sinar be included as well, and shouldn't each Leica system have its own section?
IMO that would rather dilute the forum brand and interest.
Natural progression I guess.
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Old 09-23-2016   #10
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Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
Maybe the forum should be structured more, like an RF part and a general part.
Jaap,

This makes sense to me. I would not want this forum to lose its soul.

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Old 09-23-2016   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
Maybe the forum should be structured more, like an RF part and a general part.
RFF used to be more strictly for rangefinder topics. And there was a companion forum called DSLRXchange. It was never as busy as RFF, and was eventually retired in favor of broadening the focus of RFF (so to speak!). While still strong on rangefinders, we're pretty inclusive now, and try to remain a friendly polite place to hang out.
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Old 09-23-2016   #12
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Yes, well, if it is to remain so, there should be a clear view of the target audience, which seems to be missing now. Just expanding without defining one's mission is prone to fail in the end, which would be a pity.
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Old 09-23-2016   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
Yes, well, if it is to remain so, there should be a clear view of the target audience, which seems to be missing now. Just expanding without defining one's mission is prone to fail in the end, which would be a pity.
Jaapv,

I find it best to let the RFF owner, Stephen, ponder the intangibles of the RFF mission and what is apropos or not. If you must muse upon these things, please do so in a thread dedicated to that subject and leave this thread to share Leica SL usage information for those to whom it is a vital subject, lest there arise the usual dogmatic debates and this thread become useless.

thanks,
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Old 09-25-2016   #14
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The point being that such information is better found in dedicated forums. Red Dot Forum comes to mind for real in-depth analysis. If it is vital (vital? for a camera? that comes with an owner's manual?) for you I would advise looking there. http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2...orless-camera/

Information on rangefinders is better found in this forum. It's a different world.

Thus it would be best, IMO, to regain focus by creating a rangefinder part and a general camera part.
Without user feedback, where would Stephen be?
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Old 09-25-2016   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
The point being that such information is better found in dedicated forums. Red Dot Forum comes to mind for real in-depth analysis. If it is vital (vital? for a camera? that comes with an owner's manual?) for you I would advise looking there. http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2...orless-camera/

Information on rangefinders is better found in this forum. It's a different world.

Thus it would be best, IMO, to regain focus by creating a rangefinder part and a general camera part.
Without user feedback, where would Stephen be?
I'm helping others, including on Red Dot Forum, to understand and learn the SL, Jaapv. Because I have more experience using it than most. Some of those users are here.

But I'll leave further musings of this nature to you and others on this thread. I'm not concerned about this topic.

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Old 09-25-2016   #16
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
(...)While still strong on rangefinders, we're pretty inclusive now, and try to remain a friendly polite place to hang out.
This.

I kinda like this place the way it is, talking about mission, target and focus destroy the fun part- you can share your passion with other maniacs while drinking morning coffee.
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Old 09-25-2016   #17
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From my perspective, I use rangefinder cameras for a lot of things. I own a number of Leica cameras as well as other rangefinder cameras.

But I also enjoy other types of cameras and the ability to discuss these as well makes this forum very useful as well as very interesting for me. I do suspect that others feel the same way I do because this forum is a very busy place.

Lots of people are discussing lots of things on this forum and to limit its reach may limit the amount of interaction and discussion. To me that would be far more fatal to the forum's health than allowing it to expand a bit beyond its original charter.

I commonly visit and participate in another forum, which I won't name, that has stayed as true as possible to its original charter. There are a number of self-appointed moderators, well intended I'm sure, attempting to police the strict adherence to that charter. For me it introduces an element of tension and occasional bickering that I find off putting. I personally would hate to see that begin to happen here.

Of course, you could always limit the participation of those Nikon fan boys without breaking my heart... .

I say that in jest gentlemen. I own two or three or four Nikon cameras myself.
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Old 09-25-2016   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
Yep - I know. But is it not diluting its relevance and USP this way? I mean, we have GetDpi Forums, Fred Miranda, DPreview, LuLa, etc, This way it becomes one of many.
i see it more like, 'the best of many'...
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Old 09-25-2016   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
Yep - I know. But is it not diluting its relevance and USP this way? I mean, we have GetDpi Forums, Fred Miranda, DPreview, LuLa, etc, This way it becomes one of many.
One of the strengths of this forum is how helpful / friendly people are ....
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Old 09-25-2016   #20
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As long as the dialogue is as interesting and civil as it's been in the past, who cares about subdivisions?
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Old 09-25-2016   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by back alley View Post
i see it more like, 'the best of many'...
Hi! haven't seen you around for a while! Yes, it is a friendly place, has always been. I have been hanging around for over a decade, but the thing that keeps it together is the subject matter. If the forum would switch to embroidering I would not visit any more, to illustrate in the extreme.

The times , they are changing. The division is no longer between DSLR and rangefinders.

On one side the DSLR is being pushed out by EVIL cameras - believe me, the Leica SL is only one of the early fully professional EVF cameras- on the other side the general-public photography is by smartphones instead of by compacts -and Leica is starting to define the high-end there by associating with Huawei.
That leaves the middle ground to rangefinder inspired cameras, from the fully electronic ones, like the Leica X-Vario and many others, to the pure optical Leica M. One interesting part will be the cameras like the Fuji and Sony X-Pro that offer varying degrees of manual and optical experiences.

I think this forum should specialize in that middle ground, and it will continue to attract the kind of members that make it an attractive place to be. Leave the rest of the spectrum to DPReview and the like.
It is defining one's core business that keeps an enterprise going.
I would suggest a clear division in three:
Firstly rangefinders and rangefinder-inspired cameras. I know, a category with fuzzy edges.
Secondly general non gear-related photographic subjects,
Thirdly,as a kind of service to the members - all the photographic rest.
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Old 09-26-2016   #22
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I believe that it's the participants and not the camera that really defines the forum. Case in point. I started off as a Rf user - Leica1,111c,111f,1c with a small collection of lenses - the uncoated 90mm being a star. However old age and declining eyesight has overtaken me. I can't read the calibrations on the lenses anymore without switching glasses and that makes using such equipment a pain not a joy. So I went digital to maintain my dubious ability to make pictures. Now I find the complete mix in RFF posts of interest.
In the purest sense should I leave RFF and not contribute to postings?
Surely if just one of my submissions strikes a chord with just one reader, I've been able to make a positive contribution. And if one member's posting impinges on me, the forum is working.
Inevitably the forum will go where Stephen wants it to go. If he wants to rein in various interests he will, that is his right. IMO there is sufficient structure here to cater for the multitude of interests members have. It's a gentle place with Mods, usually out of sight, moving threads on very smoothly.
Surely 'if things ain't broke, don't fix them'.
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Old 09-26-2016   #23
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I do favor this forum because it is rangefinder centric, even though I own and shoot lots of different cameras. I also kinda like that this forum is Leicacentric, and that people who are passionate and have knowledge about Leica gear have a strong presence here.

The SL perhaps IMHO is underrepresented here. Perhaps condense the A7 section(s) into a broader mirrorless section and throw the SL there to give it a place.

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Old 09-26-2016   #24
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I like the people who participate on this forum.

Pure and simple.

Smiles!
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Old 09-26-2016   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
From my perspective, I use rangefinder cameras for a lot of things. I own a number of Leica cameras as well as other rangefinder cameras.

But I also enjoy other types of cameras and the ability to discuss these as well makes this forum very useful as well as very interesting for me. I do suspect that others feel the same way I do because this forum is a very busy place.
Exactly. Mirrorless was a game changer for many. Prior to those cameras, a RF was the only mirrorless (I know there's a mirror in there somewhere).
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Old 09-26-2016   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
I must confess that I struggle to see the relevance of an SL section on a Rangefinder Forum. As good a camera as it may be, it is an EVIL camera only linked to the M system by an adapter, as many cameras are.
Maybe the Bartender can lump it into the QXT subforum, but it begs the question: where is the S section and Leica Cine section, what about Panaleicas and shouldn't Sinar be included as well, and shouldn't each Leica system have its own section?
IMO that would rather dilute the forum brand and interest.
Jaap
From my view, I just don't see a disservice to anyone or any system and especially,.. interest in Rangefinder photography.
Every visit to this site improves the exposure of Rangefinder cameras and usage.
If some non-RF user is searching info on the Leica SL and finds the site via the thread Godfrey started, doesn't that benefit rangefinders and RFF?
More traffic here is a good thing.
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Old 09-26-2016   #27
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I like the people who participate on this forum.

Pure and simple.

Smiles!

Agreed .....
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Old 10-25-2016   #28
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Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
I must confess that I struggle to see the relevance of an SL section on a Rangefinder Forum. As good a camera as it may be, it is an EVIL camera only linked to the M system by an adapter, as many cameras are.
Maybe the Bartender can lump it into the QXT subforum, but it begs the question: where is the S section and Leica Cine section, what about Panaleicas and shouldn't Sinar be included as well, and shouldn't each Leica system have its own section?
IMO that would rather dilute the forum brand and interest.
Leica SL section just added.

While the title RangeFinderForum was originally 100% accurate, photography moved on with mirrorless to add many other cameras that are now capable of shooting rangefinder glass.

While we are still primarily focused on rangefinders, there are so many great body alternatives now that it makes little sense to exclude non RF cameras.

Many members have a broad realm of knowledge and experience far beyond rangefinders. I made the decision to include that viewpoint at RFF.

Yes, organization is a bit problematical, but still far more logical than the nonsensical and illogical system that Leica corporate now uses to name their cameras (a kind of running joke conversation between jaapv and myself). He loves it, I loathe it.

And we we find ourselves in a complicated camera universe and we do our best to make sense of it.

Best,
Stephen
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Old 10-26-2016   #29
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For me the essential part of photography is the shot I take not the gear I use.
Obviously I want the gear to be user friendly to me i.e. I want to like the cameras I use, they must not get in the way of shooting. Technically stunning results make the photos even more enjoyable.

Consequently I really find it troubling that the gallery participation is going down steadily. I remember (still) time when the week was up to 30 pages of submissions in the gallery and a lively participation in the weekly picks on 3 -4 pages. Now we are down to 6-8 pages of submission and a measly 1 page thread for the weekly picks. I guess priorities have shifted to social media sites for instant sharing of cellphone snaps and selfies.

Just talking gear about the latest and greatest gear without taking pictures is like talking about cooking and not eating. Showing these shots get feedback and get inspired by what others have captured is what makes me stay here.

Marketing speak about "mission" and "vision" and "USP" gives me the creeps for that matter
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Old 11-07-2016   #30
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I think the gallery participation would be better if the upload procedure were a bit more straightforward. But it would probably use far more server memory in that case.

BTW, Stephen must be ecstatic: Leica just registered an M10 in China...
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Old 02-17-2017   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug View Post
Iíve moved the most recent 14 posts in this thread (having to do with RFF subject organization) to a new thread here:

Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Rangefinder Forum > Help / Feedback forum > RFF Subject Organization
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...d.php?t=157839

Thank you, Jaap, for raising an interesting subject that will be happy in the new location!
I like the Leica section's new layout.

I noticed that you have "Leica M10, 240 family, M-P, M60" ... you should add the 262s to that ("M/M-D 262 family" perhaps) to get all the designators in.

G
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