New word on M9 sensor from Leica
Old 06-30-2015   #1
uhoh7
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New word on M9 sensor from Leica

From Leica:

"Latest information on the CCD sensors of the Leica M9 / M9-P / M Monochrom and M-E camera models
Since the recognition of a corrosion-related problem on the cover glass of the sensors of the above-mentioned camera models (see information from 10.12.2014), we have been working with our sensor supplier on a long-term technical solution.

The development phase of a new generation of sensors has now nearly been completed. In the next phase, independent users will be testing the new sensor in practical situations to guarantee that the imaging characteristics of the cameras remain unaltered.

After completion and evaluation of this testing phase, we will begin the replacement of corroded sensors by the new-generation sensor.

As the goodwill arrangement for the replacement of affected sensors applies irrespective of the age of the camera, and also to sensors already replaced in the above-mentioned camera models, repairs will continue without interruption until the new sensors are available.
Please understand that sensor replacement can only be offered for cameras affected by the concrete problem and that preventive replacement is not possible."

http://en.leica-camera.com/World-of-...on-CCD-sensors
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Old 06-30-2015   #2
Calzone
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Thanks for the thread and update.

More than 2 1/2 years of MM9 ownership and so far no corrosion.

Cal
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Old 06-30-2015   #3
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I had the sensor replaced on my M9, but it was not due to any corrosion. The board was defective.
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Old 06-30-2015   #4
uhoh7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
Thanks for the thread and update.

More than 2 1/2 years of MM9 ownership and so far no corrosion.

Cal
Me either, but it's very nice to know they will be ready.

The impatient can always travel to the South Pacific LOL
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Old 06-30-2015   #5
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LOL, start to wet clean your M9/MM now as they will not replace the sensors on a prophylactic basis unless the problem is "concrete".
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Old 06-30-2015   #6
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Over 5 years and still working great. Nice to know there is a replacement in the works if needed.

Thanks for the link.
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Old 06-30-2015   #7
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""Latest information on the CCD sensors of the Leica M9 / M9-P / M Monochrom and M-E camera models"

Is the heading referring to the CCD sensors that will be replaced, new CCD sensors that are being developed, or both?

Will the newly developed sensors be CCD or CMOS ?

If CCD, I wonder if there will be a new M's with the new CCD sensor?

Stephen
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Old 06-30-2015   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
""Latest information on the CCD sensors of the Leica M9 / M9-P / M Monochrom and M-E camera models"

Is the heading referring to the CCD sensors that will be replaced, new CCD sensors that are being developed, or both?

Will the newly developed sensors be CCD or CMOS ?

If CCD, I wonder if there will be a new M's with the new CCD sensor?

Stephen
My interpretation: Current problem CCDs will be replaced with stock on hand: last gen. Soon a new replacement will be available. Once it is, that will go on the problem CCDs. But you can't get a new gen if you don't have delam.

With the release of the M246 I thought CCDs would phase out, but who knows?

They tried hard to make the Q as punchy as M9/ 28 cron, and it looks pretty good. I'm also getting better with the Sony files and my A7.mod, to the point where sometimes I need to look to see what body took the finished shot.

Nevertheless, M9 Raws at base iso are very very clean, and the blacks come up fine if needed. Much better than the Sony raws.
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Old 06-30-2015   #9
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My thinking is that if demand is strong for the current M-E then it may continue with the new CCD sensor but you won't see a new M body with CCD, there just isn't high enough demand.
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Old 06-30-2015   #10
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Wow, I hope this pans out. I love my M-E just the way it is and if the sensor does ever develop the corrosion issue, I would like it to be replaced, I have no interest in an M240 or any of the CMOS M body cameras.

Currently in the Southwest where the temps are 100ºF plus outside where I'm shooting, and quite a bit cooler in the air-conditioned car and hotel room. Hate bringing the camera in and out of the different temps, but I need to get the job shot. I worry about the sensor corrosion issue, but hopefully what is written above will solve the problem.
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Old 06-30-2015   #11
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Intriguing ambiguity in the announcement as to whether this "new generation" of sensors is CCD or CMOS, and its source manufacturer. Maybe the same as the mysterious Q sensor? Since as I understand it the whole sensor board assembly is changed as a unit, they're pretty well free to use whatever...
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Old 06-30-2015   #12
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Since all the guts of the camera are set to run one particular sensor, it's not going to be any radical change.

Brian has found the new part numbers and makes some informed speculation:
http://www.leicaplace.com/threads/1232/

Tim, for what it's worth, I take my M9 from 20 to 70 degrees and back many times per day all winter long with no adverse effect, and no delamination.

Brian also suggested single shots might be easier on the sensor, which may get hot with multiples and precipitate the issue.

That said I often had to wait on my buffer, but again it was usually cold. I finally broke my shutter after over 100K shots, which was replaced and the sensor confirmed to have no corrosion, last february.
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Old 06-30-2015   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
Brian has found the new part numbers and makes some informed speculation:
http://www.leicaplace.com/threads/1232/
From that link "BG55" is a Schott IR cover glass, the original glass was S8612. SO- I believe that ONSEMI has replaced the S8612 cover glass with BG55 cover glass."

And that too so long??
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Old 06-30-2015   #14
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Thanks for the update: great to know.
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Old 06-30-2015   #15
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Yes, super to know that the M9 will continue to be supported with a new sensor if necessary. Huge props to Leica for developing the solution and replacing defective sensors at their cost.
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Old 07-01-2015   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMQ View Post
LOL, start to wet clean your M9/MM now as they will not replace the sensors on a prophylactic basis unless the problem is "concrete".
Jean-Marc,

After owning my MM9 for over 2 1/2 years I just decided to wet clean my sensor for the second time. Not that I'm asking for corrosion, but I discovered some stubborn dust...

Cal
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Old 07-01-2015   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
""Latest information on the CCD sensors of the Leica M9 / M9-P / M Monochrom and M-E camera models"

Is the heading referring to the CCD sensors that will be replaced, new CCD sensors that are being developed, or both?

Will the newly developed sensors be CCD or CMOS ?

If CCD, I wonder if there will be a new M's with the new CCD sensor?

Stephen
Stephen,

My hope is that the sensor remains a CCD because I love the midrange I can achieve that resembles medium format tonality.

I would love a M-246 for the different look and the updates.

Cal
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Old 07-01-2015   #18
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Greetings Cal, I wet cleaned my M9 several times over the years to get rid of the pesky grease spots...and have not used my M9 for about a year+ (thanks to you and Klaus for tempting me with me MM). I took it out recently and lo and behold, severe corrosion on the sensor. I just sent it off to Leica NJ for sensor replacement. The MM is fine.....Enjoy your long week-end.
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Old 07-01-2015   #19
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Greetings Cal, I wet cleaned my M9 several times over the years to get rid of the pesky grease spots...and have not used my M9 for about a year+ (thanks to you and Klaus for tempting me with me MM). I took it out recently and lo and behold, severe corrosion on the sensor. I just sent it off to Leica NJ for sensor replacement. The MM is fine.....Enjoy your long week-end.
Jean-Marc,

I have a Nikon D3X as a backup digital. I'll be testing out a 28 F1.4D on the D3X later today.

Really amazing how important the MM9 has become to me. I'm hoping to get a 24 inch printer soon because an Epson 3880 isn't big enough.

Cal
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Old 07-01-2015   #20
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Intriguing ambiguity in the announcement as to whether this "new generation" of sensors is CCD or CMOS, and its source manufacturer. ...
I doubt they would do such radical change. even this "new sensor" probably was expensive lesson for Leica, redesign such old tech at this stage.

as others mentioned, good demand for M-E might justify it.
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Old 07-01-2015   #21
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Jean-Marc,

After owning my MM9 for over 2 1/2 years I just decided to wet clean my sensor for the second time. Not that I'm asking for corrosion, but I discovered some stubborn dust...

Cal
I wet cleaned my M9 several months before sending camera in for shutter. No corrosion. They also wet cleaned it.

I won't hesitate to clean again as needed, though of course with care.

There are good videos on youtube about proper wet cleaning.
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Old 07-01-2015   #22
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I wet cleaned my M9 several months before sending camera in for shutter. No corrosion. They also wet cleaned it.

I won't hesitate to clean again as needed, though of course with care.

There are good videos on youtube about proper wet cleaning.
I practice really good maintenance, and for the most part a blower ball was all that was required because I'm not a frequent lens changer, and I rarely or seldomly change a lens in the street (meaning not at home).

Hadn't a need for many cleanings. BTW I bought the Invisible Dust kit that includes the LED illuminated magnifier.

Cal
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Old 07-01-2015   #23
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The thing that I am wondering about with this new replacement sensor, is what Brian (see Uhoh7's post above) has discovered about the pigments in the CFA being '2nd gen', and Leica's words in their official statement about 'independent users will be testing the new sensor in practical situations to guarantee that the imaging characteristics of the cameras remain unaltered'.
Does this mean we are going to get a whole new look out of this sensor? That could really upset us M9 owners.
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Old 07-01-2015   #24
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The thing that I am wondering about with this new replacement sensor, is what Brian (see Uhoh7's post above) has discovered about the pigments in the CFA being '2nd gen', and Leica's words in their official statement about 'independent users will be testing the new sensor in practical situations to guarantee that the imaging characteristics of the cameras remain unaltered'.
Does this mean we are going to get a whole new look out of this sensor? That could really upset us M9 owners.
This is a great reason to own the M-A (MP, M7, etc). I am installing a new sensor every day.
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Old 07-01-2015   #25
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This is a great reason to own the M-A (MP, M7, etc). I am installing a new sensor every day.
That's quite a commitment! 😀
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Old 07-01-2015   #26
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Originally Posted by pyeh View Post
The thing that I am wondering about with this new replacement sensor, is what Brian (see Uhoh7's post above) has discovered about the pigments in the CFA being '2nd gen', and Leica's words in their official statement about 'independent users will be testing the new sensor in practical situations to guarantee that the imaging characteristics of the cameras remain unaltered'.
Does this mean we are going to get a whole new look out of this sensor? That could really upset us M9 owners.
Well it could be better, so why get ahead of ourselves and assume the worst LOL

We will know in a few months I bet.
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Old 07-01-2015   #27
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Originally Posted by pyeh View Post
The thing that I am wondering about with this new replacement sensor, is what Brian (see Uhoh7's post above) has discovered about the pigments in the CFA being '2nd gen', and Leica's words in their official statement about 'independent users will be testing the new sensor in practical situations to guarantee that the imaging characteristics of the cameras remain unaltered'.
Does this mean we are going to get a whole new look out of this sensor? That could really upset us M9 owners.
Leica just wants to make sure that sharpness and color closely mimic the current M9
output. Reading between the lines, it won't be identical, but it will be pretty darn close. Who knows they may still offer a n M24x upgrade for the truly fussy.
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Old 07-01-2015   #28
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I sent my MM in for a routine sensor cleaning a bit less than 2 weeks ago (to NJ)…. my first since buying the camera new 1.5 years ago. I received a call 3 days later, and the camera is diagnosed with sensor corrosion (here in the midwest humidity is a problem). Sensor replaced and on its way back, all told, will be exactly 2 weeks since sending it in. Leica received a large shipment of the original ccd sensors and are able to catch up a bit. Was told the replacement "new " sensor is still some time out. My MM has a new 3 yr. warranty on the sensor. Could not be more pleased.
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Old 07-01-2015   #29
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Of course I'm pretty pleased that Leica have developed or co-developed this new non-corroding CCD (presumably) sensor, and that they offer to replace corroded sensors for free, which arguably they needn't have beyond warranty repairs, but if the new sensor has a quite different colour profile to the current sensor, then I predict the sh!t's going to hit the fan, even if the new colour profile is somehow 'better' than the old one.
I suppose though, having a completely different sensor fitted into our old cameras is the tech dream of many: to upgrade a good body with up-to-date innards.
Uhoh7, I AM hoping for the best, but fearing the worst.
Kwesi, I know what you mean, but an M240 is not an upgrade - it's a side-grade. I have one of those too. It's functionally much better to use than an M9, but I don't find it nearly as nice.
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Old 07-02-2015   #30
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That is why Leica is Leica!

It has survived for many years and will continue to strive. I had my M9 sensor changed last month. It is working perfectly. However, it makes me feel good that it the problem appears again, it will be solved.
Good for Leica.
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Old 07-02-2015   #31
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I sent my MM in for a routine sensor cleaning a bit less than 2 weeks ago (to NJ)…. my first since buying the camera new 1.5 years ago. I received a call 3 days later, and the camera is diagnosed with sensor corrosion (here in the midwest humidity is a problem). Sensor replaced and on its way back, all told, will be exactly 2 weeks since sending it in. Leica received a large shipment of the original ccd sensors and are able to catch up a bit. Was told the replacement "new " sensor is still some time out. My MM has a new 3 yr. warranty on the sensor. Could not be more pleased.
That's the fastest turnaround from NJ I have ever heard. My shutter took 6 weeks this winter, and I was relieved not more.

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Old 07-02-2015   #32
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All (link... see slide 13) digital cameras sensors use CCD detection (p-dopred MOS capacitors).

However some use CCD detection and incorporate all of the other electronics required to record a raw file on a single chip. These are CMOS sensors. There are differences in timing circuit designs as well. The chip manufacturing processes are dissimilar. But the conversion of light to electrical charge is always via charge-coupled (CCD) pixels.

The preferred rendering of the M9/M8 is not due to a CCD sesnor because all sensors are CCD devices. However the sensor assembly unit when viewed as a data recording system composed of many components engineered with excellence as the highest priority is a completely different situation.

All of the technologies before the CCD pixel array – IR filter properties, color filter-array bandwidths, micro-lens design – play a role in image aesthetics.

After the data is recorded the parameters used in Bayer demosaicing interpolation algorithms must closely model the properties of the CFA bandwidths to insure rendering and tonality are optimal. It is reasonable Leica cooperates with Adobe to produce the best possible Camera Raw rendering Profile. After all all M9s ship with LR and Lica wisely adopted the DNG file standard.

So eliminating the IR filter cover glass delamination defect was only one aspect of the developing a new sensor assembly.

There is no reason to worry that Leica will not apply the very best system engineering to the new sensor assembly. After all isn't Leica all about delivering the highest possible quality? Differences in CFA, IR and other technical details could be well-within manufacturing tolerances. It may be impossible to tell the difference between the old and new sensor assemblies.
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