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Fuji Digital Medium Format Fasten your seat belts medium format fans, the status quo is in for a bumpy ride!

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Old 09-21-2016   #81
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Originally Posted by SaveKodak View Post
I can think of exactly 1 scenario where Leaf shutters are very important to have. That is outdoors, trying to beat the sun, wide open. Feel free to outline another situation for me where a 2 stop improvement in shutter speed would be important enough to you to make you spend $25k on a Hasselblad.

And this is assuming that Fuji never makes CS lenses in the future.
I like leaf shutters also.

*High flash sync speed.
*Low light handhold ability (leaf adds a couple stops over FP shutter in my experience).
*Silence. They are quiet.

Fuji built many for decades. There will be some for this system eventually.
Hopefully they would even make one for the small cameras.
Having a higher flash sync is a major boon of leaf shutters even for aps-c.
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Old 09-21-2016   #82
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Originally Posted by f16sunshine View Post
I like leaf shutters also.

*High flash sync speed.
*Low light handhold ability (leaf adds a couple stops over FP shutter in my experience).
*Silence. They are quiet.
Agreed... .
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Old 09-21-2016   #83
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Leaf shutters are mucho good.

Sometimes I nail a shot on a Rollei or Fuji (Texas Leica) at 1/15 second.

On my Rollei 3.5F I have to advance the film to confirm that I took the shot because I often don't hear the shutter. It is that quiet.

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Old 09-21-2016   #84
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Originally Posted by f16sunshine View Post
I like leaf shutters also.

*High flash sync speed.
*Low light handhold ability (leaf adds a couple stops over FP shutter in my experience).
*Silence. They are quiet.

Fuji built many for decades. There will be some for this system eventually.
Hopefully they would even make one for the small cameras.
Having a higher flash sync is a major boon of leaf shutters even for aps-c.
*Low light hand-hold advantage came from no-mirror slap, not from some inherent advantage of the leaf shutter.
*You have not yet heard the shutter in this camera. FPS cams can be remarkable quiet. Is the Leica MP loud now? I recall that the K-3 was marketed as being quieter than an M4. The Canon 5D3 in quiet mode was surprising silent. All of these cameras may not be as quiet as a GF670, but none of the above are loud enough to bother anyone, even in a quiet church which is where I do my work frequently.

*Yes, you have a higher sync speed. But again, are you going to now spend 25K on a Hasselblad so that you can use strobes to beat the sun while shooting wide open in daylight? Is that one situation so important to you? Cause in the studio 1/125th of a second causes no problems.
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Old 09-21-2016   #85
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Also, you can all relax now:

"There will be a range of adapters to connect third-party lenses to the GFX 50S, including leaf shutter lenses for studio and flash work."

Source: http://www.fujirumors.com/fujifilm-g...d-sensor-more/
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Old 09-21-2016   #86
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Everybody raving about "lightweight body" but with MF the lenses are often more weight than the body. And if you go "on a set" with MF then the cart with the camera and lenses could well be lighter than the make-up...
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Old 09-21-2016   #87
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Some talk of a "global shutter" possibility in the Luminous Landscape interview with Fuji.

https://luminous-landscape.com/photokina-2016-day-one/
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Old 09-21-2016   #88
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Since the flange is so short, I'm assuming we'll see:

-- lots of adapters for obsolete MF systems
-- possibly tilt/shift adapters to better utilize the larger image circle in those 6x4.5, 6x6 and 6x7 lenses
-- we might also get "speedboosters" to mitigate the crop size of the sensor

It's going to be a fun few years for MF gear heads! Better start stocking up on those choice MF lenses... if the trajectory is anything like when mirrorless cameras first hit the market, I foresee a steep price increase for those special MF lenses in search of a system!
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Old 09-21-2016   #89
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The Fuji cries mobility.

Contax 645, Pentax 645(N, D, Z), Mamiya 645 AFD(I, II, III), all have focal plane shutters. Few had complained. In fact only the Bronica and Hassy H had leaf shutters.

It's just a feature. They can even build one or two leaf-shutter lens like Mamiya-Leaf did for those who want the best of both worlds.
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Old 09-21-2016   #90
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Hm, I am not fully convinced. But more for economic than technical reasons.
The camera looks good by data / tech sheet. No question.
But will it become an economic success?
I don't think so.
Because I well remember an interview with the Hasselblad CEO concerning the size of the global digital medium format market. He said that the whole global market is only about 5,000 sold units p.a.. And it is significantly declining, too. As the whole digital camera market.
That market size is extremely tiny. A niche in the niche in the niche market.

And now we have lots of (too much) competitors in the market: Hasselblad, Phase One, Leica, Pentax and now Fujifilm.
And we have increasing competition from FF / 35mm sensor cameras with 42-50 MP sensors, which cost much less.

Don't forget: The price of "less than 10,000$" is only for the camera with standard lens. To fully exploit / using this system you need more lenses. And then you will be in the 15,000 - 20,000 $ price range. You can buy a new car for that amount of money. Or significantly decrease your house debt.
Only a tiny fraction of photographers is so rich that they could afford that. And now 5 companies are fighting against each other in that market......extremely difficult for any of them to be profitable.

If you've looked at Fujifilm's financial data over the years you see that their X-system has not been very profitable.
Meanwhile Fujifilm is making more money again with their silver-halide products compared to their digital products.

Cheers, Jan
This was interesting. Price expectation for the body only is between $7000 and $9000...and with a set of lenses between $15,000 and $20,000....and your feeling is that it is therefore not economically viable with a limited market.

How much is Leica's latest body and a set of lenses again?

Thought so.
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Old 09-21-2016   #91
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There have been options in the $8000 price range that are useable in the same situations these systems will be? That is a straight up lie. Systems in that price range have been relegated to studio duty because anything above ISO 200 looks terrible for most purposes.
??? Don't tell me a liar! I know what am talking about, in contrast to lots of users here in this thread who have never worked with digital medium format, but make armchair expert comments I've worked with lots of these options in the past. Mamiya AFD II and III, Pentax 645D and Z. They have all offered the much lower (compared to Hasselblad and some PhaseOnes) price range similar to the Fuji price range and the faster shutter. It's been there.

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Originally Posted by brennanphotoguy View Post
And no, you won't have to invest $15,000 into a kit to get a system. You don't use MF like you would 35mm. You can get 1 or 2 lenses and be set.
Sorry, with all respect, but that is again complete nonsense. I am using medium format for decades, and only 1-2 lenses have never been sufficient to use the system to full satisfaction.
The main advantage of MF is the flexibility of changing lenses with a bigger format than 35mm.
And all medium format users I know who use ILC MF cams (enthusiast and professionals) have much more than two lenses.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 09-21-2016   #92
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You're not going to change his mind, his favorite topic is the collapsing of the digital camera market.
No, not at all.
But in contrast to lots of naive dreamers I look at the market realities: Hasselblad have had lots of troubles over the years and needed several new investors to survive. Mamiya, Leaf and PhaseOne had to merge to survive. Jenoptik left the market. The market for digital medium format cameras declined over the years. Despite cameras like the Mamiya AFD II / III, Pentax 645D and Z which were offered in the price range about 10,000 bucks.

And now the competion is even harder because of the 42-50 MP 35mm alternatives form Canon, Sony and Nikon.
All are going in this high-end enthusiast market. They are taking away customers from each other.

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Old 09-21-2016   #93
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it's soooo big!

i wish i really wanted it but if it don't fit in my pocket... well, i wish i wanted it.
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Old 09-21-2016   #94
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Originally Posted by Faintandfuzzy View Post
How much is Leica's latest body and a set of lenses again?
And how much are they selling of it?
I talked to a Leica rep. about it, the volume is tiny.

Again, I've said it above: The Fuji looks good, certainly a nice camera.
But Fuji has not made a big profit from their APS-C X-system so far. And in the tiny niche market of digital medium format it is even much more difficult to be profitable.

In my daily job I often have to do cost analysis. So probably I am more sensible to that topic.......

Cheers, Jan
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Old 09-21-2016   #95
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it's soooo big!

i wish i really wanted it but if it don't fit in my pocket... well, i wish i wanted it.


I think it looks a bit bigger by itself because it's angular, but next to a DSLR is seems to be pretty similar if not a little smaller!
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Old 09-22-2016   #96
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Originally Posted by HHPhoto View Post
??? Don't tell me a liar! I know what am talking about, in contrast to lots of users here in this thread who have never worked with digital medium format, but make armchair expert comments I've worked with lots of these options in the past. Mamiya AFD II and III, Pentax 645D and Z. They have all offered the much lower (compared to Hasselblad and some PhaseOnes) price range similar to the Fuji price range and the faster shutter. It's been there.



Sorry, with all respect, but that is again complete nonsense. I am using medium format for decades, and only 1-2 lenses have never been sufficient to use the system to full satisfaction.
The main advantage of MF is the flexibility of changing lenses with a bigger format than 35mm.
And all medium format users I know who use ILC MF cams (enthusiast and professionals) have much more than two lenses.

Cheers, Jan
The early Mamiya/Phase offerings are the ones with terrible ISO above 200 that I was mentioning. The Pentax 645D upon release was $10,000 before the price of lenses. The 645Z bested that when it released at $8,500 but again, before lenses. And the Pentax offerings are not as compact as the Fuji kit. I also have professional friends who have been shooting digital MF for a decade and most of them own 2-3 lenses at the very most because they own MF for specific reasons whether it's head shots, architecture, interiors, etc. They have this very specific tool for their work and don't need to buy everything under the sun for a "complete kit for everything" because you don't need a complete MF kit for everything. Not everyone is a gearhead photographer out there who just wants to have this stuff. Some people buy the stuff because they need it solely for work.
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Old 09-22-2016   #97
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Originally Posted by HHPhoto View Post
And how much are they selling of it?
I talked to a Leica rep. about it, the volume is tiny.

Again, I've said it above: The Fuji looks good, certainly a nice camera.
But Fuji has not made a big profit from their APS-C X-system so far. And in the tiny niche market of digital medium format it is even much more difficult to be profitable.

In my daily job I often have to do cost analysis. So probably I am more sensible to that topic.......

Cheers, Jan
Since you've seen inside Fujifilm's books I'd love to know your data on that. I'll keep waiting.

Your failure to understand the market adjustment that is happening within photography is what is coloring the doom/gloom narrative you're pushing. Fujifilm is not Hasselblad, Mamiya, Leaf, or Phase. They could operate the X system on a loss, and it would still be worth it for them to do so because they don't 'need' it, anymore than Rioch needed to make the GR series, or now Pentax. Fujifilm could just break even on the GFX and it would make the whole project worth it for them. However, IMO, the market adjustment that has you so sour has more to do with the consumer market than the professional market. If professional camera sales have slowed it's because the perpetual upgrade cycle is less necessary. Plenty of photographer still use the 5D Mark II. There is PLENTY of room for advancement in medium format digital. This camera is fundamentally different from what's come before.
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Old 09-22-2016   #98
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Originally Posted by Harry Caul View Post
Since the flange is so short, I'm assuming we'll see:

-- lots of adapters for obsolete MF systems
-- possibly tilt/shift adapters to better utilize the larger image circle in those 6x4.5, 6x6 and 6x7 lenses
-- we might also get "speedboosters" to mitigate the crop size of the sensor

It's going to be a fun few years for MF gear heads! Better start stocking up on those choice MF lenses... if the trajectory is anything like when mirrorless cameras first hit the market, I foresee a steep price increase for those special MF lenses in search of a system!
Harry,

Thanks for posting this. I have mucho Pentax 67 glass including the 75/2.8 AL.

Hmmm.

Cal
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Old 09-22-2016   #99
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If people really want some (huge) leaf shutter lenses Fuji can always release some, like Hassy did for their V, Pentax did for their 645 and 67, and what Leaf currently is doing with their 645DF cameras. All these cameras use focal plane shutters, yet Leaf managed 5 LS lenses covering focal lengths from 35mm to 135mm, all with top/sync speed up to 1/1600 second.

This displays the versatility behind Fuji's decision. On the other hand, mod2001 complained about the lack of Tilt/Shift lenses early on in the thread. The chance of him being pleased would forever be lost should Fuji decided to go with the leaf shutter route, like Hassy H did...
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Old 09-22-2016   #100
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Harry,

Thanks for posting this. I have mucho Pentax 67 glass including the 75/2.8 AL.

Hmmm.

Cal
I swoon for the 75mm AL. SWOOOOOOON!
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Old 09-22-2016   #101
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Talking about GFX being profitable, let's remember that Fuji is a big company that doesnt have all its eggs on a single basket. It can afford to loss some or not gain that much on GFX because of his other products. On the other hand, GFX gives Fuji a spot light, and on a competitive market thats a pretty big asset.
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Old 09-22-2016   #102
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I swoon for the 75mm AL. SWOOOOOOON!
SK,

It is a crazy lens.

Currently my friend Mike who is a pro fashion photog is interested in my Pentax 67II kit which includes the dedicated AFZ-500 dedicated flash, the "Z" shaped cable for the grip, and the AE prism to enjoy TTL.

While the 105/2.4 is a great lens, Mike used the 75 AL in the studio to shoot slow speed slide film for that saturated old school look.

Back when they still did "Fashion Night Out" I used the Pentax 67II rigged out with the 75 AL and flash to blind people on 5th Avenue when shooting the last of Velvia 50 in 220.

Oh what fun. Too bad the crowds and underaged drinking put a stop to a great night of shooting.

I remember the model in a Berdorf window taking exception to one photographer who was paying more attention to me and my rig than her. LOL.

It seems I also ran into "Nellie" the bar maid from Puck Fair that night who I have known for years because Puck Fair is where we have had the NYC Meet-Up for many years. I was unaware that she also was a model, and she introduces me to her four other model friends. Of course I took advantage of having 5 models on Fifth Avenue.

I ended giving the slides to Nellie at the next Meet-Up. The Pentax 67 II with the AE prism and TTL nailed every exposure. I loved the strong contrast and the saturated colors. Anyways the look was profound. The 75 AL is truely a great lens.

Cal
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Old 09-22-2016   #103
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SK,

It is a crazy lens.

Currently my friend Mike who is a pro fashion photog is interested in my Pentax 67II kit which includes the dedicated AFZ-500 dedicated flash, the "Z" shaped cable for the grip, and the AE prism to enjoy TTL.

While the 105/2.4 is a great lens, Mike used the 75 AL in the studio to shoot slow speed slide film for that saturated old school look.

Back when they still did "Fashion Night Out" I used the Pentax 67II rigged out with the 75 AL and flash to blind people on 5th Avenue when shooting the last of Velvia 50 in 220.

Oh what fun. Too bad the crowds and underaged drinking put a stop to a great night of shooting.

I remember the model in a Berdorf window taking exception to one photographer who was paying more attention to me and my rig than her. LOL.

It seems I also ran into "Nellie" the bar maid from Puck Fair that night who I have known for years because Puck Fair is where we have had the NYC Meet-Up for many years. I was unaware that she also was a model, and she introduces me to her four other model friends. Of course I took advantage of having 5 models on Fifth Avenue.

I ended giving the slides to Nellie at the next Meet-Up. The Pentax 67 II with the AE prism and TTL nailed every exposure. I loved the strong contrast and the saturated colors. Anyways the look was profound. The 75 AL is truely a great lens.

Cal
The last wedding I shot with the P67II had me employing all the techniques you mentioned and yes, it was glorious. The Pentax TTL worked great, and the close focus of the 75 AL allowed me to capture fantastic detail shots. In a moment of stupidity I sold my P67II kit.

I recently bought an old Pentax "6x7" and am having it overhauled. It came with the 150/2.8 and 105/2.4. Just waiting for a good deal on an AL, but they're hard to find!
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Old 09-22-2016   #104
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The last wedding I shot with the P67II had me employing all the techniques you mentioned and yes, it was glorious. The Pentax TTL worked great, and the close focus of the 75 AL allowed me to capture fantastic detail shots. In a moment of stupidity I sold my P67II kit.

I recently bought an old Pentax "6x7" and am having it overhauled. It came with the 150/2.8 and 105/2.4. Just waiting for a good deal on an AL, but they're hard to find!
SK,

Thanks for sharing.

I just bought a Leica SL so you know the deal of culling down and raising cash, but this tread and the reminder of how great the P67 II works with the AE prism and 75 AL tells me that I should realize that I presently own treasure I should never get rid of.

The 75 AL is a rare find. Good luck in finding a replacement. In the studio Mike found the 105 to be too long BTW.

Cal
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Old 09-22-2016   #105
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The Pentax 75mm AL should show its excellent character on the new Fuji, given an adapter of course. I use mine on the Leica S2 with very pleasing results. The lens's diaphragm lock-open/stop down switch makes it effectively a "pre-set" lens for more convenient use than a straight manual diaphragm.
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Old 09-23-2016   #106
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And in the tiny niche market of digital medium format it is even much more difficult to be profitable.
If this is any indication, they will be fine:

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/hass...ted-sell-year/
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Old 09-23-2016   #107
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The Pentax 75mm AL should show its excellent character on the new Fuji, given an adapter of course. I use mine on the Leica S2 with very pleasing results. The lens's diaphragm lock-open/stop down switch makes it effectively a "pre-set" lens for more convenient use than a straight manual diaphragm.
Doug,

Thank you so much as always.

I just bought an expensive new digital camera, and now I need another. LOL.

Please state more about the 75 AL and S2 experience.

I know of one event photographer who uses the Pentax glass on a Nikon. To work around not having autofocus he uses focus bracketing and continuous together to nail the shot.

The S2 or S likely has the fast processor speed and big buffer required.

Cal
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Old 09-23-2016   #108
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...
Please state more about the 75 AL and S2 experience.

I know of one event photographer who uses the Pentax glass on a Nikon. To work around not having autofocus he uses focus bracketing and continuous together to nail the shot.

The S2 or S likely has the fast processor speed and big buffer required.

Cal
Hi Cal -- The Fuji is likely to have an AF focus-confirmation indicator light in the viewfinder, as the Leica S2 does. This should continue to work even with manual focus lenses, as a handy focus aid. The S2 meters fine with the manual-diaphragm setup, hopefully the big Fuji will too.

For some juicy 75mm AL photo samples...
Go the RFF Gallery... choose Gallery Search on the gallery menubar, choose Advanced Search, look down to the popup menu labeled Select Lens Used, click and hold on it and scroll down to the Pentax 67 section and choose the 75mm f/2.8 AL. You’ll find three pages of photo thumbnails of pics shot with this lens. Oddly, they’re all mine! The first 26 pics, the most recent ones, were made with this lens on the Leica S2.
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Old 09-24-2016   #109
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Anyone else disappointed it isn't an X-trans sensor? I hope they do go to an x-trans layout somewhere down the line with these MF cameras. I've come to love the smoothness of the x-trans output.
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Old 09-24-2016   #110
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Anyone else disappointed it isn't an X-trans sensor? I hope they do go to an x-trans layout somewhere down the line with these MF cameras. I've come to love the smoothness of the x-trans output.
No. I belong to those 50% who can't get a satisfying output out of x-trans files. I wouldn't even look at the GFX if it had this type of sensor.
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Old 09-24-2016   #111
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I think it looks a bit bigger by itself because it's angular, but next to a DSLR is seems to be pretty similar if not a little smaller!
It does look more reasonable next to the DSLR. With that said i havent used a DSLR in many, many years so that might bring my comment into perspective.

I do wonder how big the market is for such a camera? I mean there are applications where absolute resolving power is high on the priority list. No doubt about it. But with the A3 prints i see from 1 inch sensors, i would hazard a guess that sheer pride will be the predominant purchase influence for most.

PS hope all is well Gavin
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Old 09-24-2016   #112
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i would like to be able to afford one...at least then my choice as to buying or not would be real.
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Old 09-24-2016   #113
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This comment doesn't add anything to the thread but man I am lusting over the GFX.
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Old 09-24-2016   #114
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My friend, Kai and Locke reporting from Germany;

https://youtu.be/rgWoz-e8oZk?t=1m37s

May have to sell my new toy FR-S to fund a newer toy...only one third the price...and as handsome but not as big...

fr-s photo by t a i p e i-metro

naaa, I'll keep both...
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Old 09-25-2016   #115
unixrevolution
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Originally Posted by Taipei-metro View Post
My friend, Kai and Locke reporting from Germany;

https://youtu.be/rgWoz-e8oZk?t=1m37s

May have to sell my new toy FR-S to fund a newer toy...only one third the price...and as handsome but not as big...

fr-s photo by t a i p e i-metro

naaa, I'll keep both...
The FR-S/BR-Z is a dynamite little car. I wouldn't sell it to buy a camera.

Might sell it to buy an MX-5 though. But I have this sickness where I'm allergic to a steel roof.
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Old 09-25-2016   #116
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Originally Posted by gavinlg View Post
Anyone else disappointed it isn't an X-trans sensor? I hope they do go to an x-trans layout somewhere down the line with these MF cameras. I've come to love the smoothness of the x-trans output.
I would prefer XTrans. There was a recent interview with Fujifilm executives some where out on the WWW where they hinted XTrans MF may be down the road. Or, maybe it was just a translation issue (i.e. they are thinking about it instead of doing the R&D).
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Old 09-25-2016   #117
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Here we go.
When I asked yesterday at Photokina for availability, they said "Unknown", could be early 2017, could be mid of 2017, which would be 3-4 months too late for me, sadly.

It was not possible to try it or even touch it (at least, if you were not some very special person, which I am not), but it looked very interesting behind the glass. Especially with the lens-selection it is very interesting for me, and I would love a kit with the wide-to-normal-zoom.

On the other hand, the Hasselblad is already available and they let me play around a while with it. For some reason, it was not allowed to put in your own SD-card, but they said, if I go to my local Hasselblad-Dealer, they would probably let me test it for a few hours. And strangely, although I live in a not so big city with nearly no real photography shops, there is a Hasselblad-dealer just a 5 minute walk away... Anyway, that camera was a joy to hold. Since the Fujifilm GF670 I never saw anything that was remotely as street-able as the Hasselblad, what an incredible camera! Sadly, the price-tag is even worse than the rumored price of the Fuji. Also for some other reasons I would probably prefer the Fuji over the Hasselblad, but this threads title says "its here". Sadly, this is by far not true... I would buy it right away, and I'm on my preferred camera dealers waiting list since the first rumors. It seems, that it will arrive just a little too late for my big three months photography adventure, where I would have wanted it for.

Damn you, you #*!$§! Kumamoto-earthquake...

PS: Funny thing was: The Pentaxians with their 645Z did let me try their camera with my own SD-card as if it were a standard cheapo-cam... They had plenty of it behind the counter, and nobody was interested..
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Old 09-25-2016   #118
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Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
I would prefer XTrans. There was a recent interview with Fujifilm executives some where out on the WWW where they hinted XTrans MF may be down the road. Or, maybe it was just a translation issue (i.e. they are thinking about it instead of doing the R&D).
You have a link to that interview in Japanese? I would like to read on my own, what was said.
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Old 09-25-2016   #119
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You have a link to that interview in Japanese? I would like to read on my own, what was said.
Was 901 the one who tell you to clean the 'lens contact' on x-100?
No xtrans on the road or down the road...
Click cc if you have hard time understanding Japanese English...

https://youtu.be/jLBwh485q8M?t=3m40s
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Old 09-25-2016   #120
krötenblender
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Originally Posted by Taipei-metro View Post
Was 901 the one who tell you to clean the 'lens contact' on x-100?
No xtrans on the road or down the road...
Click cc if you have hard time understanding Japanese English...

https://youtu.be/jLBwh485q8M?t=3m40s
Thanks, I knew that one before. I thought, there was another interview. The only hint to X-trans, if you like, would be, that he said, at this time (emphasis also in the interview) they decided for several reasons to use Bayer-pattern. But I don't think, you could take that as a hint for anything.

Personally I don't care. I just viewed my RAW-test shots (DNG) of the Pentax 645Z from Photokina, which has a very similar sensor, and they are incredible. So I MUST HAVE!!! the Fuji...
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