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Epson R-D1 Leica M mount Digital Rangefinder A dedicated forum to the first Digital Leica M mount rangefinder camera.

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Old 12-22-2016   #41
anselwannab
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My point is that as camera phones move up in quality and start to squeeze the lower end DSLRs, there is actually an increasing market for something that is more artful and experiential. The reason why people still buy, prefer and covet Harley bikes and mechanical watches. DSLRs are becoming the F22 of cameras- all computered up capable, but the crowds still come to see P51 Mustangs.

So you have three currents coming together.
The technology is mature and flattening its cost curve.
Photography has pushed into the fully computerized mode that automates everything.
There are crowd based funding and technology assets available.

Canon 6Ds sell for $1000 now, so it isn't the sensor that is keeping the economics out of touch.

The real price target is the used price of an M9. You hit that with a recent FF sensor in a Zeiss Ikon body and you have a winner. Open source the firmware for the minimum complexity and future updates. You crowd source the funding to reduce the risk.

I'm really looking for who the "you's" are.
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Old 12-22-2016   #42
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Or, is it living off something else? Like it's lens lineups?
Sure. I dont see a reason to prefer Voigtlander over Leica except for price.
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Old 12-23-2016   #43
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Cosina or Zeiss need to do a digital bessa/ikon. Put whatever the cheapest current prod 35mm sony sensor in it is (they're all excellent anyway), copy either leica or fujifilms current design/layout on the back, cheapest available decent res LCD and don't worry about video or spending too much time making JPEG output good. Just super basic, super focussed.

I'm pretty sure they would sell a LOT more than the film equivalents ever did. It would boost their lens sales tenfold too. And it's not just Cosina/zeiss that would benefit - the more people try rangefinders with these products, the more people are going to shell out for a leica when they realise how fun they are.

These niche products are the exact products that have a future in digital imaging, not DSLRs or compacts. See fujifilms success with their analog-controls niche.
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Old 12-23-2016   #44
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Cosina or Zeiss need to do a digital bessa/ikon. ... Just super basic, super focussed.
Not going to happen - you need to grasp the basics of product manufacturing.

1. The development and production costs for even a basic camera will be immense. Many people think you can just knock up a product, but the work and time needed is huge. Such a camera will be a niche product - not only because most people don't want their camera to be an optical rangefinder but also because of the costs that will need recouping. Expect to pay $2000 upwards.

2. See my previous post on how the RD-1 came to be and why Cosina will never make a digital rangefinder themselves: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...7&postcount=39

Come on people, stop dreaming!
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Old 12-24-2016   #45
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We are talking about a rangefinder, right? For the cost let's take the Sony Rx1 II as a basis. That's roundabout 4000 EUR currently. You have to fit all this into an appropriate housing that you have to build. The new housing, the rangefinder and a modified sensor that really works with Leica-M lenses adds probably 1000-1500 EUR. 5000-5500 EUR for a sony or cosina branded rangefinder. A big success? I don't think so.
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Old 12-24-2016   #46
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Originally Posted by gavinlg View Post
Cosina or Zeiss need to do a digital bessa/ikon. Put whatever the cheapest current prod 35mm sony sensor in it is (they're all excellent anyway).
The cheapest sony sensor does not really work with a leica m lens. Corner sharpness is really bad.
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Old 12-24-2016   #47
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In my opinion it is really a pity that there is no successor to the RD1, which I was interested in but in that time out of my budget. By the way it was when doing research about the RD1 that I stumbled into RFF !
I'm now ready to pay around 4k eUR for an digital alternative to Leica but as it seems also from some of the post in this thread it is not a realistic possibility, due to huge development cost and a limited market.
So it only remains the dream...
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Old 12-24-2016   #48
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Originally Posted by tom.w.bn View Post
The cheapest sony sensor does not really work with a leica m lens. Corner sharpness is really bad.
This is not a matter of the sensor, but of the sensor stack - the thick cover glass used in the first generation Sony FF cameras was not suitable for short register lenses. But this is not part of the sensor, but of the camera design, and the easiest part on a digital camera to modify, with many companies now offering after-market changes to the filters and cover glass. There is no good reason why a company designing a camera for short register legacy lenses would use the awkward cover of the first A7 series (or even the fair-to-middling covers of the second), given that there are several available ultra-thin glasses to pick from.
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Old 12-24-2016   #49
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Originally Posted by robert blu View Post
I'm now ready to pay around 4k eUR for an digital alternative to Leica but as it seems also from some of the post in this thread it is not a realistic possibility, due to huge development cost and a limited market.
So it only remains the dream...
robert
You can buy a used M240 in very good shape with a low actuation count for less than that.
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Old 12-24-2016   #50
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Thanks tom I know...maybe next year...or stay with film...
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Old 12-24-2016   #51
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Digital cameras with analog, mechanical rangefinders are a niche market. And, that thin slice of the new camera market-share pie is well-served by Leica.

Game over.
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Old 12-24-2016   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichC View Post
In short, the RD-1 was a PR exercise, and Epson never intended to sell it as a mainstream product.
Around the time the last version, the R-D1x, was finally discontinued in 2014, there was a page on the Epson home-market website explaining that the motivation for the R-D1 when it was introduced around ten years previously was to draw attention to the potential of Epson's then-emerging lineup of photo-quality inkjet printers.

Perhaps that was an after-the-fact rationalization, but it's plausible and more or less consistent with the story that Rich tells.
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Old 12-24-2016   #53
anselwannab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom.w.bn View Post
We are talking about a rangefinder, right? For the cost let's take the Sony Rx1 II as a basis. That's roundabout 4000 EUR currently. You have to fit all this into an appropriate housing that you have to build. The new housing, the rangefinder and a modified sensor that really works with Leica-M lenses adds probably 1000-1500 EUR. 5000-5500 EUR for a sony or cosina branded rangefinder. A big success? I don't think so.
You are double dipping. The RX1 series already has a high cost viewfinder system built in a specialized housing. The FF Sony cams are a far better starting point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tom.w.bn View Post
You can buy a used M240 in very good shape with a low actuation count for less than that.
This and used M9 cameras are the price point that the new cam would have to meet. Kind of like how Hyundai cars at first completed with used Hondas.
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Reality is just a shadow of four-dimensional space-time.
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