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View Poll Results: Poll: Has Leica alienated photographers?
Yes, I feel alienated by Leica's High Prices 144 40.91%
Maybe, sometimes yes, sometimes no 68 19.32%
No, I want Leica quality and that means Leica prices 93 26.42%
YES, I am alienated by Leica targeting bling marketing (late poll addition) 47 13.35%
Voters: 352. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-27-2016   #641
airfrogusmc
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Originally Posted by BlackXList View Post
And that user experience that means a lot to you/the way you see and are comfortable working, is something that tips the scale in the value proposition towards Leica.

Like I said about the GR in another post, it's a camera that has a design credo of taking all but the essential out, and that's one of my favourite things about it. so I do get it, and there's something indescribable about a camera that feels like it gets out of the way when you're using it.

My whole "value proposition" argument is a balance of the cold hard specification, AND the user experience, and the weighting will be different for everyone.

For me personally, they're an absolute non starter, because they don't match up. I honestly don't think it's too much of a controversial statement to say that the number of working photographers using Leica vs other brands is much smaller.

The next question is "why?" and to me that's straight to the value proposition.
I know that I do business differently, I see and work differently and I know Leica isn't the choice most pros make. To me that's a great thing.

In my opinion if you have cameras that do not match the way you see and work then you are not getting the work you are full capable of. Even though they might be inexpensive compared to others it's no bargain. Finding equipment that allows you to work at your fullest potential, no matter what the cost, is the real value. I am fortunate that my work pays for it all so I can buy and use exactly what I need. it just so happens to be Leica M at this point in time.

And did you want to know why I prefer Leica M? It's not all that complicated. First it's a true rangefinder. I like the way I can easily see and anticipate what is coming into the frame and leaving it and the camera is not blocking that process. After some time with one it helps in the intuitive nature of me seeing the moment. I also like the fact the shutter dial is on the top of the camera and the aperture ring in on the lens. I only shoot manual so it makes it easy and very effortless. Also I like lenses with really useful depth of field scales. They are very much an important part of the way I work. I also found focusing with a rangefinder to be rather effortless. The cameras are also smaller and a lot quieter that most DSLRs. Especially the ones in the Leica price bracket. The lenses are a fraction of the size of DSLR auto focus lenses and for the most part sharper and have a better overall look. Again that just depends on the lens but I am speaking in a generalization. The fact you can use almost the entire Leica lens library on one also is a plus. I shoot with Leica's that don't have video, a lot of automation, no EVF, because all of those things really, for me, defeat the reason for a rangefinder. If I were to shoot video for a client (which I wont) I would use a video camera and surely not a rangefinder. These reasons are all suggestive and many wouldn't pick a Leica for the very reasons I do. But the one thing that is for sure is if you need true digital rangefinder and especially one that only shoots B&W the options are limited to one.
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Old 12-27-2016   #642
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There is a distinction between guarantee and guaranty, look it up on the internet. But I'm a bit alienated by the language discussion here. A huge part of the forum is the group speaking EFL (english as foreign language). Do we really need the discussion that includes correction of spelling/grammar? Most of the time we know what others mean even with language mistakes.
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Old 12-27-2016   #643
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Originally Posted by creenus View Post
And it's guarantee, not guaranty.
Actually "guaranty" is correct if used as legal term or when referring to a document.

As tom.w.bn said, let's not go to word nitpicking, it is rude, this is an international site. International English in particular, should not be confused with native English, which is often out of sync with the more common international version.
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Old 12-27-2016   #644
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I don't believe Leica has alienated photographers at all. If you happen to be a photographer for Nat. Geo. Magnum, or the NFL you don't go buy a Canon Rebel XT. You pay a premium price for the best bodies, best & fastest lenses.

Leica is & always has been for most part geared toward artist like HCB, Winogrand, Joel Meyerowitz, Friedlander, & Ralph Gibson, just to name a vast few. If you want a Leica equivalent to a Canon Rebel you buy a Panasonic.
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Old 12-27-2016   #645
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Well I feel alienated!
But I sent a letter.
"Dear Sirs;
Why don't you make a line of inexpensive lenses for all us po folks?"

They sent back a envelope with a bit of aluminum foil and a pin.

Now that's class.
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Old 12-28-2016   #646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airfrogusmc View Post
...First it's a true rangefinder. I like the way I can easily see and anticipate what is coming into the frame and leaving it and the camera is not blocking that process. After some time with one it helps in the intuitive nature of me seeing the moment. I also like the fact the shutter dial is on the top of the camera and the aperture ring in on the lens. I only shoot manual so it makes it easy and very effortless. Also I like lenses with really useful depth of field scales. They are very much an important part of the way I work. I also found focusing with a rangefinder to be rather effortless. The cameras are also smaller and a lot quieter that most DSLRs. Especially the ones in the Leica price bracket. The lenses are a fraction of the size of DSLR auto focus lenses and for the most part sharper and have a better overall look. Again that just depends on the lens but I am speaking in a generalization. The fact you can use almost the entire Leica lens library on one also is a plus. I shoot with Leica's that don't have video, a lot of automation, no EVF, because all of those things really, for me, defeat the reason for a rangefinder. If I were to shoot video for a client (which I wont) I would use a video camera and surely not a rangefinder. These reasons are all suggestive and many wouldn't pick a Leica for the very reasons I do. But the one thing that is for sure is if you need true digital rangefinder and especially one that only shoots B&W the options are limited to one.
You've hit the nail on the head, at least for me, in why I use rangefinders, specifically Leica.

There is no way that I can afford any of the new Leica cameras, in fact I can't really afford any of the Leica cameras or lenses made in the last 50 years, BUT I can afford those cameras and lenses made earlier. So I currently own a IIIf and an M2 plus a small clutch of Leica lenses made in the early 1950's. (I also own a small selection of Voigtlander lenses, most obtained 2nd hand)

What am I trying to say? Well, I know that Leica is an expensive brand and unless I win the lottery I won't be buying anything new from them but that doesn't stop me from still owning and using Leica, it's just that I have to start from a lower rung so to speak. Leica don't alienate me as I've never been able to afford to buy new but I'm still a member of the 'club' even though I own equipment 60+ years old.

As for pro-use, I guess it all boils down to the right tool for the job to suit any particular photographers style. Each to their own. We shouldn't get worked up about this, really...

Regardless of what or however many special edition cameras Leica produces, we all know it's just to make them money, raise their profile and generate more sales of their regular line of cameras and lenses. It doesn't bother me. If it bothers others so much, well, there are many other camera manufacturers out there willing to sell to you....

Just my thoughts on this matter.
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Old 12-28-2016   #647
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Originally Posted by airfrogusmc View Post

In my opinion if you have cameras that do not match the way you see and work then you are not getting the work you are full capable of. Even though they might be inexpensive compared to others it's no bargain. Finding equipment that allows you to work at your fullest potential, no matter what the cost, is the real value. I am fortunate that my work pays for it all so I can buy and use exactly what I need. it just so happens to be Leica M at this point in time.
This is the absolute heart of what I'm saying about the value proposition.

This emotional (not saying that in a negative way, just as opposed to purely technical) side of the equation is as important as the solely technical side.
I understand that, I feel that way about a number of things, even certain straps, they just work for me.

On a solely technical level, they are not competitive, and then you add in the difference between the likes of CPN Canon servicing (I haven't used Nikon's so I can't comment) and Leica servicing, and there's several strikes against them in the technical column

This sentence is the one that jumps out at me though, towards the crux of what I've been trying to get across

"I can buy and use exactly what I need. it just so happens to be Leica M at this point in time"

You've bought the tools to do the job the way you like to do it, in your case, and currently the rangefinder experience has at least as much value as any of the purely technical considerations. I completely support that, even in the phrasing though it's the correct tool to do the right job at the right time.

That's the crux of what I'm saying, and with no ill will whatsoever, Leica lag behind on the technical side, and that makes them less of an option to many photographers.

I'd like to see them competing, on the technical side as well as the user experience, and seeing what work people can do with them then.
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Old 12-28-2016   #648
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Originally Posted by BlackXList View Post
On a solely technical level, they are not competitive
Really? DXO has another opinion.:

Quote:
Comparing the Leica SL with two rivals that are capable of delivering a similar-sized 16-bit TIFF file, the Sony A7 II and Nikon D750, the Leica performs very competitively.
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Old 12-28-2016   #649
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That is indeed a fact, but that is a matter of appreciation of the camera as a whole. I was responding to a false assertion. DXO is talking about sensor technology here.
In fact, comparing the graphs on the DXO site between the Nikon D810 and Leica SL is illuminating. Despite the MP difference the sensors are so close that it cannot make a real-world difference, which, I must admit, came as a surprise to me as well.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Comp...810___1058_963 (go to "measurements" and compare the five graphs)
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Old 12-28-2016   #650
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Originally Posted by BlackXList View Post
This is the absolute heart of what I'm saying about the value proposition.

This emotional (not saying that in a negative way, just as opposed to purely technical) side of the equation is as important as the solely technical side.
I understand that, I feel that way about a number of things, even certain straps, they just work for me.

On a solely technical level, they are not competitive, and then you add in the difference between the likes of CPN Canon servicing (I haven't used Nikon's so I can't comment) and Leica servicing, and there's several strikes against them in the technical column

This sentence is the one that jumps out at me though, towards the crux of what I've been trying to get across

"I can buy and use exactly what I need. it just so happens to be Leica M at this point in time"

You've bought the tools to do the job the way you like to do it, in your case, and currently the rangefinder experience has at least as much value as any of the purely technical considerations. I completely support that, even in the phrasing though it's the correct tool to do the right job at the right time.

That's the crux of what I'm saying, and with no ill will whatsoever, Leica lag behind on the technical side, and that makes them less of an option to many photographers.

I'd like to see them competing, on the technical side as well as the user experience, and seeing what work people can do with them then.
Well when you are talking B&W the old MM 18mp, because there is no color, is very comparable to a 36 MP camera. Ming Thein did a piece on that a few years back
https://blog.mingthein.com/2012/05/2...hrom-vs-d800e/

And that's the original MM. The new one ever better if that's what you are looking for. I have no reason to upgrade because of all the stuff the new one has that I don't need or want and I find the original MM to be fully capable of handling all of my needs.

But to me that's all fine because anything over 18mps is plenty so then it gets to what best fits me.

Yes Leica's repair service here in the US is not good and something that Leica should seriously address. CPS is a great service. With them being local (Itasca) I would call and they would have loaner equipment waiting while I dropped off my repairs and the repairs would usually only take a couple of days.
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Old 12-28-2016   #651
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Well, if you derive comfort knowing your $7450 camera can hold its own with cameras costing $1500, your an easy man to please.
According to DXO those two cameras have the best 24 MP sensors on the market. What camera should it hold its own with then?
If a camera is just a sensor to you...
Put them side by side and you will see the price difference. If the total camera is of no interest to you, be happy and save thousands.
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Old 12-29-2016   #652
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One would hope so. The Leica SL costs $7450; the Sony A7II and Nikon D750 are each under $1500. Talk about damning with faint praise.
And both cameras it's compared to are 2 years old by the time the SL came out.

So like I said then, they're at least a couple of years behind with each product.

And we're justifying the additional 5 grand by an oversized body (that Leica users tend to criticise in other cameras), and by getting rid of all the knobs and dials for a fancy interface, (which Leica users tend to criticise in other cameras...).

Yeah I can't be bothered with this nonsense being passed off as "appreciation for the camera as a whole" any more. Some people simply refuse to see what's in front of them.

airfrogmusic: I'm glad you've got what works for you, especially as I enjoy seeing your work with it.
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Old 12-29-2016   #653
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Be happy with your Sony or whatever. I don't grudge you your bliss. For me it is a decent backup camera, and the camera that I take on a daily basis is an M or Monochrom. I agree that the SL would not be my first choice, but for others it is. Happy New Year.
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Old 12-29-2016   #654
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The MM original MM was several years behind the Nikon d800E.

But for me the image and getting the image is what's important and I have worked on all kinds of files and I prefer my Leica files over currant cameras and those things that most want on a camera are all things I don't want and that certainly makes cameras like the M 262 and MM perfect choices for me. I actually really like the M-E also.So called latest and greatest doesn't always = best. Just the latest.

I remember in early 1990s I was shooting a job with my 500 C/Ms and some guy was there at this event I was shooting. He had the latest EOS 1 whatever it was at the time and he said to me I can't believe a pro would be shooting with what i was shooting with and not a EOS 1 whatever. I jokingly said that I needed to get one of those.

Even through all the automation and auto focus of the big 2 I still shot with M 4s, Canon F-1s, Nikon F-3s and 500 C/Ms. No need to upgrade to the stuff with more bells and whistles. Those features in my opinion and for the way I work made those cameras less intuitive and more cumbersome. I feel that way about those kinds of features today. Those things tend to get in the way of me making photographs. I know many can't live without that stuff but I search out cameras that avoid that stuff

And I agree with jaapv enjoy what you have whatever it is especially if you have found things that match your vision but to say the equipment I shoot with is lacking because it's not the latest because maybe all the latest is what floats your boat. But you will always be chasing the perfect camera because there is always something that is going to be so called better. When instead you should be chasing your vision with equipment that you have spent a lot of time with. Like Weston was pointing out that if you are constantly changing gear you never master it and at what point is it all good enough. It is there now and has been there like Haas said they are all capable of capturing what you are seeing, you just have to see.

To me Leica is M. It is what separates them for the herd. But there are a lot of photographers I respect that do not agree with that and thats quite alright. Nice to have choices I say.
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Old 12-29-2016   #655
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Originally Posted by tom.w.bn View Post
It's dentist, not laywer. If you want to be accepted by the other guys of the leica haters league you have to use the carefuully prepared arguments correctly.
1) Not a Leica hater.
2) Lawyers/etc was what all the old Curmudgeons in the camera shop I used to work at would refer to. (Guessing you say Dentist in the sense of microscope cameras etc).
3) Mark's Photos near here became a shop because it was a lawyer hoping to get retailer discounts on the Leicas he liked
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #656
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Sean Reid's review of using the new Leica M10 that will come out soon suggests a winner with a thinner - more M7 size body. Sounds like Leica is beginning to catch up with the real world, but their market is now broader than photographers. Photographers buy their cameras or they'd have gone out of business. I think they are VERY effective at selling the intangibles and slowly beginning to get it with the tangibles. From what I read, they're now following Fuji's X-PRO2 ideas.

The VERY good news in this is that it will likely mean a number of Leica-owners dump their cameras on the market and enable the photographers to buy them at cheaper prices. Price I saw for the M10 body seems to convert close toe $8,000 some. If even fan-boys, and have to trade up at these prices, this means the sale prices for 2ndary ownership should fall. Looks to me that the upward price pressure on new models is intended to provide some bouyancy to the used market. This is the way cars used to work in the 1980's. We'll see.

Aside from the fact that Sony just gets the job done, Leica is still an appealing camera. Does it promise to fight obsolesence for any of us? Absolutely not. Used cameras will still be good values, but not like the film versions which are still good after 50 years. I don't think a digital Leica is made with the sort of tech ruggedness we could expect from the film versions. Military grade... bullet proof tech fits into two categories: Enormously expensive and rugged, or infinitely replaceable and disposable, but available in high volume. Leica doesn't fit either, but no other does either. Fifty years from now, it will be ubiquitous throw-a-way cameras that are still chugging.

Different question isn't about alienation camera companies do in their ads that annoys you? With Leica... there was an ad on the website a few years back celebrating Hannah Montanna's purchase of a Leica. I couldn't close my browser fast enough.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #658
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With Leica... there was an ad on the website a few years back celebrating Hannah Montanna's purchase of a Leica...
Is that like a male version of Justin Bieber?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #659
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I'll tell you who Leica has not alienated: Reporters
I thought it was newspapers that had done that!
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #660
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The new M10 is $6600. That's about $400 less than the M-P typ 240, and about $600 more than the M-D typ 262.

I'm not alienated at all by that price, or by the M10. Or by the brilliant incremental development that Leica is achieving in the M line. When they release the M-D10 with all those improvements (the better viewfinder optics, better sensor, better buffer performance, etc) in the simpler body, I could even be convinced I should upgrade.

Could ... I remain quite satisfied with the M-D just as is, and could be shooting with it for a decade.

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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #661
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The new M10 is $6600. That's about $400 less than the M-P typ 240, and about $600 more than the M-D typ 262.

I'm not alienated at all by that price, or by the M10.
Yeah, but you have $$$$...
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #662
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Yeah, but you have $$$$...
I'm alienated by my lousy finances.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #663
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Yeah, but you have $$$$...
LOL! You are so wrong. :-)

I don't have $$$$ ... in fact, I'm retired and on a fixed income now.

What I have is priorities: I value the qualities in a Leica more than most any other camera so I put the money together and buy that to do my photography with. I don't do a lot of other stuff that people spend money and time on.

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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roscoetuff View Post
... there was an ad on the website a few years back celebrating Hannah Montanna's purchase of a Leica. I couldn't close my browser fast enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Is that like a male version of Justin Bieber?
Hannah Montana was a fictional character on the Disney Channel, from 2006 to 2010. I believe the actress who played the part, was shown with her new camera, an M8, in 2009, when she was 16.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #665
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Hannah Montana was a fictional character on the Disney Channel, from 2006 to 2010. I believe the actress who played the part, was shown with her new camera, an M8, in 2009, when she was 16.

Gosh, don't those guys know? Billy Ray Cyrus is her dad. That will make it better!
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