Another agitation thread

[Lauffray]

Alright I'm now sure it's my agitation technique (and not something else) that I need to perfect if I want to get the exact look I want from my negatives

Ideally, I would like to see grain, contrast but controlled highlights. For this is it better to agitate gently but more frequently ? More aggressively but less frequently ? Is this combination of contradictory characteristics even possible ?

Lately I've been using mostly Xtol and/or Rodinal, TriX and HP5@800 and @1600

[John Bragg]

Hi Lauffray.
What you are describing is achievable with Rodinal. Dilute at 1:50 and agitate for the first 15 seconds then for 5 seconds at every 5 minute interval. Long and gentle development like this produces regular honest grain with no clumping. D.F.Cardwell on the apug forum has long been advocating this method and it works. 25 mins at 20 c as a starting point for ei400 with Tri-X. I do 20 minutes @ ei200 as I prefer it rated at 200. Highlights are very well controlled and scan or print with ease. It is just one way with Rodinal but it works for me.

Good luck.
John

[Lauffray]

Thanks for the recipe John, do you know of any similar starting guide for pushed film ? I hear Rodinal isn't so great for that (except for stand dev)

[John Bragg]

I am not so sure but I guess just extending the time appropriately should work. The old rule of thumb was add one third of the time again for each stop. There is no reason why it shouldn't work although times would be getting long and it could be interesting to try a test roll. Somewhere about 40 minutes for 800 speed? ?

[zauhar]

Not to take a tangent here, but do you agitate by inversion, or spinner?

I have no choice but to use the spinner with the tanks I have. I have been assuming that 10 sec spinning equals inversions of the same duration, but not sure.

In any event, exccept when stand developing, I have been agitating the recommended 10 sec every minute , much more than John's protocol. I will also give it a try .

Randy

[mbdiesel]

In my experience, agitating using the stick for Paterson tank is not the same as inversion when rodinal is involved. Spinning the reels with a sticks for the same amount of time used for inversion produced about one paper grade less of a contrast for me. Your mileage may vary.

[john_s]

Expose for the shadows, develop for the midtones and agitate for the highlights.

[Lauffray]

Originally Posted by john_s

Expose for the shadows, develop for the midtones and agitate for the highlights.

That's precisely my question, how does one agitate to get contrast without exploding the highlights ?

I agitate by inversion btw

[charjohncarter]

This is my formula for controlled contrast, grain and held or separated highlights. For me TriX you could use any other 400 ISO traditional film, Rodinal, 35mm, agitate by inversion for 30 seconds, then 3 inversions every 3 minutes. Correct your total time for contrast you want. Use normal temp. around 20 degrees C.

[John Bragg]

Hi Lauffray.
As I suspect you are getting a bit caught up in the concept of the perfect negative with a contrast in the mid tones and restrained Highlights, just consider that as long as the negative holds enough information and the highlights are not blown, a print of any contrast can be made. The negative is the key but is just one step in the process whether you wet print or scan. The upshot is that you can expand the tones on a softer negative with good shadow exposure but one that is over contrasty to start is near impossible to recover. Develop to hold highlights and dial in contrast at the printing/ lightroom/Ps stage and you will not go wrong.

[nextreme]

Originally Posted by charjohncarter

This is my formula for controlled contrast, grain and held or separated highlights. For me TriX you could use any other 400 ISO traditional film, Rodinal, 35mm, agitate by inversion for 30 seconds, then 3 inversions every 3 minutes. Correct your total time for contrast you want. Use normal temp. around 20 degrees C.

Do you increase time to increase contrast (and less to lower it) ?

i've always just followed the suggested times from massive dev chart, but sometimes I find my negatives too contrasty.

Cheers
Steven

[charjohncarter]

Originally Posted by nextreme

Do you increase time to increase contrast (and less to lower it) ?

i've always just followed the suggested times from massive dev chart, but sometimes I find my negatives too contrasty.

Cheers
Steven

Yes! Or you can greatly increase agitation, (to increase contrast) but I would recommend a time increase or decrease in your case.

Someone above said meter for shadows, develop for mid tones, and agitate for the highlights. I agree with this and I do it all the time. But when doing a portrait I would meter for mid tones, develop for shadows and agitate for highlights. But that is in the craziness realm, so I hardly ever suggest a two tier method of development, just keep it to myself.

[nextreme]

Originally Posted by charjohncarter

Yes! Or you can greatly increase agitation, (to increase contrast) but I would recommend a time increase or decrease in your case.

Someone above said meter for shadows, develop for mid tones, and agitate for the highlights. I agree with this and I do it all the time. But when doing a portrait I would meter for mid tones, develop for shadows and agitate for highlights. But that is in the craziness realm, so I hardly ever suggest a two tier method of development, just keep it to myself.

But there's a point where decreasing time will lead to under development, i guess you have to test to find the absolute minimum time, or is there another way ?

[Lauffray]

Yeah that was my next question, nextreme was faster.
Ideally I don't want to spend too long developing, 40min for Tri-X@800, I might as well do stand dev, no ?

[charjohncarter]

Originally Posted by nextreme

But there's a point where decreasing time will lead to under development, i guess you have to test to find the absolute minimum time, or is there another way ?

You don't want absolute minimum or under development. You want contrast that is acceptable to your tastes.