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Old 06-14-2017   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
One thing you can do is while in LiveView, before you take the 'scan' of the negative, is manually adjust the white balance in camera. You would obviously shift it to the blue/cyan end of the temperature scale until you feel that it has compensated for the orange film base.
Then take the 'scan' and process from there on.
Hi Huss -- Thanks for this note. If I'm doing a camera-scan, I'll shoot RAW, and pick the WB at the time of RAW conversion in LR or PS/ACR.

With my Cyan/Magenta illumination, I get a clean WB on the unexposed film at 4350K with very little tint (-7 in LR).
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Old 06-14-2017   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
Godfrey - you must understand color science basics. Is Curve/Levels complicated just two steps?

Here is inversion curve from gamma 2,2 image into log space so you can apply in any Adobe application and set black/white point. Two steps only.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By...Uxsend6LTl2eGc
I'm pretty well educated in color theory/science, but I'm unfamiliar with the jargon you are using. What does it mean to apply an "inversion curve from gamma 2.2 into log space", for instance? What's an "inversion curve" ... specifically? I presume some form of transform but don't know what measures you're referring to or what your inverting. Etc. I've never heard these expressions in any of my color science/theory books or courses. I don't quite understand your question "Is Curve/Levels complicated just two steps?" either .. sounds to me like that should be two sentences or needs some punctuation.

Please explain. Thx
G
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Old 06-14-2017   #83
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He told you exactly what he was doing, Godfrey. Why do you keep acting like he didn't? Just trolling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
My workflow is very simple. First you debayer your RAW image from digital camera which is linear to luminance (dark on screen). Then you apply LOG curve because this is how film store luminance so then image is linear to image recorded on negative. Then you do simple inversion and set black point (orange mask removal) and white point using levels.
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Old 06-14-2017   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
This is completely irrelevant if you are capturing raw files. White balance is set in the raw conversion. Raw converters simply use the setting that the camera embeds in EXIF to get something representative of the scene.

G
If it was irrelevant you would not have the ability to set WB in RAW in camera.
Of course you can then edit WB any way you want in your PP program, but this step gives you an option to view 'corrected' WB before you shoot and adjust it there, or shoot and adjust it later.

It's just another option.
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Old 06-14-2017   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
Hey, friends and fellow shooters --

My aim in starting this thread is to understand what's going on. I have learned that the orange mask is not uniform; it's strongest in unexposed areas of the color negative and weakest where the negative is darkest. I cannot tell yet if this makes a difference.

My original question was much more limited: Is there an advantage in using Cyan/Magenta illumination vs. white light when doing the camera-scan? It seemed intuitive to me, but I'm still not sure I've seen a difference. Will do a comparison soon.

Again, I'll say that the options in PS Curves "Auto" seem like a breakthrough to me.
I suggest that tuning the light color so it neutralizes the orange mask is the breakthrough, that makes the simple 'auto' curves work. People have been inverting and running auto color since time immemorial, but Your result above is much better than what I've seen out of such a process. More data is needed, though, I agree.
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Old 06-14-2017   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
If it was irrelevant you would not have the ability to set WB in RAW in camera.
Of course you can then edit WB any way you want in your PP program, but this step gives you an option to view 'corrected' WB before you shoot and adjust it there, or shoot and adjust it later.

It's just another option.
Sure, but know that you've not actually changing the capture at all, you're just changing how the camera displays it and telling the raw converter a number to use in its default processing. I don't see much point to that. I don't need to filter the mask out while I shoot, I take it out afterwards when I do the inversion and color balancing.

I don't know how many people can look at WB 'corrected' inverse color and know what they're going to get when the turn it into a positive.

G
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Old 06-14-2017   #87
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My apologies, but I don't understand your question. I don't pick a neutral point in ColorPerfect.

In any event, whenever I pick a neutral point that does give OK colour. I've just chosen not to edit colour too much in CP because I prefer to do as much of my editing as possible in one piece of software.

br
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Originally Posted by stompyq View Post
In your workflow that pick neutral point in CP step. That's where the entire thing falls apart since everything changes depending on where you pick as a neutral point. It works for some images very well. for others, it fails spectacularly. Sorry. I've done what your doing and it doesn't work
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Old 06-15-2017   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranchu View Post
I suggest that tuning the light color so it neutralizes the orange mask is the breakthrough, that makes the simple 'auto' curves work.
We will see soon. Will post trial comparison today.
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Old 06-15-2017   #89
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Quote:
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brbo's color is super clean though, Godfrey, you stopped before you got to that point, with the massive cyan cast still there.
Exactly. For all the cross-criticism of each other's workflows in this thread, the best, and most neutral version so far is brbo's. Other people telling him that he's doing it 'wrong' (ironically I've accused him of saying this to other members in the past), in view of his vastly superior result that discussion seems essentially moot to me.

FWIW that workflow is almost exactly what I do in CP (apart from adjusting saturation and gamma). Nowadays I spend about 10 seconds in ColorPerfect: if the WB isn't correct, I adjust it by clicking a neutral area. If no neutral area is available I use the Ring CC interface to fine-tune the color parameters by eye. When I was using Vuescan I'd also need to adjust the Highlight and BP Tails a bit, but with Silverfast I can even skip those settings totally.

When you simply begin to understand the very unique interface, ColorPerfect is fast, consistent and usually very, very good.
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Old 06-15-2017   #90
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Originally Posted by philipus View Post
My apologies, but I don't understand your question. I don't pick a neutral point in ColorPerfect.

In any event, whenever I pick a neutral point that does give OK colour. I've just chosen not to edit colour too much in CP because I prefer to do as much of my editing as possible in one piece of software.

br
Philip

I think stompyq referred to your post mistakenly assuming brbo's workflow was yours, Philip.

btw while I can theoretically agree with the general philosophy of keeping all your transforms of an image in one program, my workflow now includes pretty much a bit of everything: linear negative scan in SilverFast --> import to Photoline --> transform in ColorPerfect (and Save-As to keep the original negative intact) --> Photoshop for dust spotting --> Nik Viveza2 for some very slight and subtle local tweaks --> export yet another smaller version with Save-As to keep the big 16bit TIFF --> import to Lightroom to do some last tweaks and curves --> Blurb book output.

This probably sounds like a lot of work, but I do stuff in batches, and most of it is very fast and semi-automated with Actions and custom keyboard shortcuts. The best thing is that (esp since I switched to SilverFast) the whole process is much more consistent.
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Old 06-15-2017   #91
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All can be done in Photoshop or similar app in two or three simple steps using proper curves/histogram or scopes. No matter if image is linear on non-linear.
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Old 06-15-2017   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
All can be done in Photoshop or similar app in two or three simple steps using proper curves/histogram or scopes. No matter if image is linear on non-linear.
Jack thanks for the posts and especially for the link. So if I get this straight the most important thing is to get a linear gamma conversion of the raw file? Is that correct? Is there a way to do it other than cmd line software like dcraw?
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Old 06-15-2017   #93
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Linear (gamma 1) is nice but increase storage. Scanners via VueScan delivers such files
Once I get RAW image from you I will propose easy and fast solution in ACR. I have done gallery with drumscanned negatives using my plugin - google jzagaja flickr.
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Old 06-15-2017   #94
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Linear (gamma 1) is nice but increase storage. Scanners via VueScan delivers such files
Once I get RAW image from you I will propose easy and fast solution in ACR. I have done gallery with drumscanned negatives using my plugin - google jzagaja flickr.
I"scan" using a Nikon D610 and macro lens. I gave up using scanners long ago.
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Old 06-15-2017   #95
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Ok so post RAW files.
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Old 06-15-2017   #96
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Quote:
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Ok so post RAW files.
I'll upload a raw file once I get home. Just found rawtherapee does linear gamma conversions of NEF files
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Old 06-15-2017   #97
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Why is getting a linear gamma so important?

It's easy to get a linear gamma from a scanner, or by using a raw converter that allows you to set the base correction curve. But what advantage does it give you? You only have to apply a gamma curve again in order to properly place the values where you need them to be for proper display.

G
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Old 06-15-2017   #98
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Friends, I'm going to look at the illumination, using the DiChro head to illuminate the color neg with Cyan/Magenta light. I am interested in the "linear" question and Jack's approach, and I'm going to send Jack one of my raw files.
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Old 06-15-2017   #99
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First the illumination.

Here's the camera scan of image and unexposed film, flash illumination, 5000k, no filter. The orange we are used to seeing. Note the histogram: Red is in a good area, green/blue will require more severe adjustment. If we believe ETTR, we would want the g/b histograms to be further to the right.



Here's the same image, correcting the unexposed film to neutral color, using the Lightroom ("LR") eyedropper. Notice the degree of correction needed to get neutral (2300K and a tint change of 47).



And, finally, here's the camera-scan using +50 Cyan and +15 Magenta filters ("CMFilter"), again with flash, correcting color with LR eyedropper, as with previous image. Note this balances at 4350K with a small tint (-8). That's what I was seeking. All histograms in a good position.

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Old 06-15-2017   #100
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Next, I do "Edit in... Photoshop" for each of these. I use the Action set in Huss's article, linked in #2 way above. All automatic, no manual adjustment except as noted above. Here are the automatic results:

With No Filter:



With the CMFilter:



Some differences in color casts, and neither is a finished product. The question is, with reasonable touch-up, which will be more free of unwanted residual casts?
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Old 06-15-2017   #101
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Next, I did a little bit of manual adjustment. I'll show the adjustments in the next post, but the most important is color. I know the granite steps are quite neutral, so I corrected, working again in LR. In the photos, X marks the eyedropper spot.

With No Filter:



With CMFilter:

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Old 06-15-2017   #102
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Here are the adjustment required to get to the "final" images just above:

With No Filter:



With CMFilter:



Histograms are good in both. The final color correction (eyedropper on the X) are about the same. But, other adjustments are more severe in the NoFilter image.
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Old 06-15-2017   #103
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Finally, a side-by-side comparison of the final adjusted images:



My conclusions:
1. Not very different in results. Either could work, with some more touch-up.
2. Both are better than the mini-lab print I got in 2010.
3. The flash+filter illumination produces the result with less severe adjustments. Many advocate ETTR; this approach gives a file with better placed Green and Blue histograms. I have long believed that severe adjustments produce artifacts, so I'll favor the Cyan/Magenta filter version.
4. I think the new-to-me option in PS Curves-Auto is a break through. I've tried various auto adjustments in the past without much success, this one is different. Hit Auto with the option key, "Find Dark and Light Colors," and "Snap Neutral Midtowns."

Looking forward to your thoughts. For Jack and anyone else who wants to play, here are the RAW files:

I suggest starting with this one
No Filter, Flash illumination: 2under.net/images/160712-Steps-Flash-NoFilter-DSC0007.ARW

CM Filter, Flash illumination: 2under.net/images/160712-Steps-Flash-CMFilter-DSC0005.ARW

No Filter, 3000K illumination: 2under.net/images/160712-Steps-3000k-NoFilter-DSC0004.ARW
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Old 06-15-2017   #104
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Pretty similar. I guess I was wrong, but the bluish bricks in the filtered version look more accurate to me than the other. Could just be bias from knowing which is which. Still, filtering the light to remove as much mask as possible couldn't hurt. I appreciate the additional investigations! In all, a really nice histogram for full sunlight and shadows!
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Old 06-15-2017   #105
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If you want get maniacal, you could filter to compensate for the relative sensitivities of the RGB filters on your sensor, plus the mask. Hit the 'Color Response' tab ..



https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Cano...--Measurements

I believe the trial version of Rawmagick lite has a check box to show the three channels before they're manipulated by the profile..

http://www.rawmagick.org/
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Old 06-15-2017   #106
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I told you what I did and why. Telling me it isn't a finished rendering so therefore brbo has a better methodology is just stupid ... I told you it wasn't a finished job that when I posted it. It proves nothing other than that you want to try to put me down. I don't give a rat's patootie what you think.

You can carry on blathering all you want. I'm done with this stupidity. Now you all should delete the copies of my photo from your computer .. it is copyrighted and all rights reserved, like all my work.

G

Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post
Exactly. For all the cross-criticism of each other's workflows in this thread, the best, and most neutral version so far is brbo's. Other people telling him that he's doing it 'wrong' (ironically I've accused him of saying this to other members in the past), in view of his vastly superior result that discussion seems essentially moot to me.

FWIW that workflow is almost exactly what I do in CP (apart from adjusting saturation and gamma). Nowadays I spend about 10 seconds in ColorPerfect: if the WB isn't correct, I adjust it by clicking a neutral area. If no neutral area is available I use the Ring CC interface to fine-tune the color parameters by eye. When I was using Vuescan I'd also need to adjust the Highlight and BP Tails a bit, but with Silverfast I can even skip those settings totally.

When you simply begin to understand the very unique interface, ColorPerfect is fast, consistent and usually very, very good.
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Old 06-15-2017   #107
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lmao. The guy's colors are cleaner right out of the raw converter, where you still had the cast. Then you wanted to jam him up and act like you didn't understand what he was saying. Then you start crowing about how everyone else's was so 'complicated' when you hadn't even finished doing the work on yours.

Get a grip, you're talking to people who are serious about this.



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Old 06-15-2017   #108
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Quote:
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Pretty similar. I guess I was wrong, but the bluish bricks in the filtered version look more accurate to me than the other. Could just be bias from knowing which is which. Still, filtering the light to remove as much mask as possible couldn't hurt. I appreciate the additional investigations! In all, a really nice histogram for full sunlight and shadows!
Yes, more similar than I expected. Frankly, hard to choose in a blind test, looking only at the processed images.

And, thanks. I chose the negative for the full range of tones.
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Old 06-15-2017   #109
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Quote:
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I told you what I did and why. Telling me it isn't a finished rendering so therefore brbo has a better methodology is just stupid ... I told you it wasn't a finished job that when I posted it. It proves nothing other than that you want to try to put me down. I don't give a rat's patootie what you think.

You can carry on blathering all you want. I'm done with this stupidity. Now you all should delete the copies of my photo from your computer .. it is copyrighted and all rights reserved, like all my work.

G
Well that escalated quickly.

As so often on the internet, someone mistook the tone of what was meant as an innocuous statement and ran with it... FWIW I wasn't trying to put anyone 'down' in my comment post about ColorPerfect. I just felt it was worth reiterating what brbo was saying: the workflow with Cp is very fast and very simple. It's also consistent, once you get the hang of the very weird interface.

Very impressed otherwise with the seriousness and thoroughness of the techniques being discussed in the thread. Can't help thinking there's such a massive hole in the market for the continually-growing interest in film photography: when it comes to capturing/scanning and post-processing, we're left to find our own techniques and solutions - which is both exciting and frustrating.
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Old 06-16-2017   #110
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Will no one rid us of this meddlesome orange mask?

A plug-in? A camera calibration?

Invert followed by PS Curves with "Find Dark and Light Colors," and "Snap Neutral Midtones" does well enough for some images, but we know it's technically flawed and these flaws will show sometimes.
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Old 06-16-2017   #111
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Hue shift (more greenish) and saturation/clipping depends on output color space. I can set dcraw to no clipp (camera space) but image is not nice. I can set sRGB and no color balance and again get no clipping. Conclusion - all depends on RAW converter. My advice:

- use RPP with LAB Tiff output, convert in PS to RGB and apply levels, nice colors
- use dcraw syntax -T -o 1 test.arw then import into PS and set levels
- try balance orange mask with 80A filter

from drum scanners I get nice colors, from digicams it is difficult
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Old 06-16-2017   #112
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Below is Kodak Ektar exposed with two different shutter speeds, drumscanned (some red clipping occurs due to UV-IR cut filter), linear+log+levels no grey balance or any other color correction.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 12757268433_1fb2cf4ce3_o.jpg (40.1 KB, 16 views)
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Old 06-16-2017   #113
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Quote:
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2) My plugin for inverting negatives: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By...3pPNGZZR2hIZU0

it applies log curve, linearize image if needed, applies levels, applies Schlick curve for contrast fine tune, changes midtones balance through film gamma settings.
Woha! This is super-interesting! Is your plugin working with Photoshop CC? It should be easily applicable to 16-but RAW output (they are always linear, right?) TIFF scans from VueScan.

I wish I was at home to test this!

EDIT: Ah, now I see that it works only up to PS CS6
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Old 06-16-2017   #114
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If your Photoshop requires installator for plugin then no. It was written 15 years ago in Filter Meister, some functions not implemented. New interface has histogram, ctrl+M switches off clipping markers.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By...W9PR2k4Zmlkazg

Vue outputs linear gamma 1 files too that can be used. Nonlinear can be used too if you write file gamma in the plugin.
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Old 06-16-2017   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
My advice:

- use RPP with LAB Tiff output, convert in PS to RGB and apply levels, nice colors
Using Jack's suggestion:
- Working from the Cyan/Magenta Flash illuminated camera-scan
- RPP with LAB 16 bit Tiff output, adjusting to put the histogram in the middle, and a full stop away from clipping at either end
- Open in PS, crop, invert, convert to RGB
- Then run Curves, Auto, with "Find Dark and Light Colors," and "Snap Neutral Midtones"
- Back in Lightroom, Clarity +13, one more color correct with eyedropper, same spot on last step
- Slightly reduce exposure -0.10

Here's the result:



Good result, a bit different, more pop in the red flowers I like, green tint on sunlit granite I don't like but could easily correct.

Note that none of the images I've shown do I consider fully finished.

My conclusion for Camera-scan of color negs:
- RAW converters are different, as we knew.
- The PS Curves Auto-with-options continues to look good.
- I'll continue to illuminate with the CMFilter and 5000K flash; offsetting the mask can't hurt.
- I'll probably stay with ACR for RAW conversion
- ... but will watch for images that might work better with something else
- Still will be some color casts to correct

Thanks all for the comments! At this point, I'll stop experimenting.
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Old 06-16-2017   #116
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Summarizing my color neg camera-scan workflow:
- Illuminate the neg with +50 Cyan +15 Magenta on Beseler Dual-Mode Duplicator
- Shoot with 24MPx digicam, good macro lens, RAW capture, tethered shooting, RAWs go right into Lightroom
- Get a WB from film rebate, adjust histogram to be broad and a full stop away from clipping at both ends; use for all shots on the roll
- Crop as needed
- Edit in... Photoshop
- Run the Action in Huss's suggested article (Invert, then Curves Option-Auto "Find Dark and Light Colors," and "Snap Neutral Midtowns")
- Save in PS, creates a big tiff file
- Back in Lightroom, make final adjustments
- Export in desired format and resolution

Lightroom manages the RAW, the positive tiff, and the final adjustments
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Old 06-16-2017   #117
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Many thanks for the investigation, Colonel!
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Old 06-17-2017   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marekvesely View Post
Woha! This is super-interesting! Is your plugin working with Photoshop CC? It should be easily applicable to 16-but RAW output (they are always linear, right?) TIFF scans from VueScan.

I wish I was at home to test this!

EDIT: Ah, now I see that it works only up to PS CS6
I believe you have a Scanmate 5000, correct? Then I'm afraid that 16 bit RAW won't work, as QC has a bug that corrupts the SM5000 16bit RAW files. The single issue I've with this otherwise wonderful scanner.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #119
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Below please find logarithmic drumscans: (desribed by me earlier, very simple)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By...0ZfdDQwa2ZCMGc

this is same as Cineon/Cintel Millenium scanner log dpx file output but with applied levels. Now see this image on HDR OLED (LG B7) or any quality bright display in the dark and you will see a beauty of the fillm capture and how easy it is with good scanner or make positive copy in cine laborathory (cheap) and project on wall.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
Workflow for scanning negatives is very easy - you make a photo or scan in linear gamma 16 bit and apply log curve (I can send) then invert and set black/white point convert to 8 bits. For most films this is all so only three steps. Some films require midtones correction with levels or curves eg. Ektar has too much magenta. All depends on scanner spectral response too. If your photo is in gamma 2,2 space (windows) then log curve approx. is gamma 3 so you need add gamma 0,8 (lighten image). I wrote plugin in 2004 for that that works in older PS.

Orange mask removal through mixing light or exposure is a good thing that maximize bit depth and prevent banding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
Here is inversion curve from gamma 2,2 image into log space so you can apply in any Adobe application and set black/white point. Two steps only.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By...Uxsend6LTl2eGc
Jack, thank you for comments on gamma vs log and your offer of the custom curve. I have been thinking about this since your first comments.

My concern had been that the gamma transformation of digital data would mess up the inversion from negative to positive.

Your comments raise a different hypothesis: that gamma in digital is not a problem, but the non-linearity of film IS a problem.

Here's a line I think is suggested by your comments:
- Film has a very non-linear response to light. While the characteristic curve has a segment linear in log-log space, even in that range it's quite non-linear in the base variables (scene brightness vs. light transmission of the resulting negative).
- My camera scan of the negative is linear. RAW capture counts photons linearly, even though all our software applies gamma when displaying an image.
- If we invert the camera-scan directly, we'll get unwanted tonal changes.
- The "righter" way is to apply a non-linear transformation to the camera-scan RAW file before or during the inversion.

Jack provided us a Photoshop curve that applies a non-linear transformation and inverts. I haven't tried to validate the curve, instead I've simply tried using it on images.

Jack's curve looks like this (the red channel curve is shown, blue and green are similar, ignore the black line).



Here's a process that would follow from above:
- Illuminate a color neg with +50 Cyan +15 Magenta using 5000K flash
- WB from rebate (it is 4350K and -8 tint with my setup, with one typ film)
- RAW conversion with default settings
- Set White and Black points in PS (Levels)
- Transform and Invert with Jack's curve
- Curves Option-Auto with Huss's options: Find Dark/Light, Snap Neutrals

Over next couple days will make some comparisons, but initial tests appear promising, possibly better than the other's I've tried.

Thanks Jack and Huss for the tips.
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