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Old 07-29-2013   #81
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Old 07-29-2013   #82
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I have to add my admiration for the work here of tsiklonaut - inspiring and amazing.

Tsiklonaut, did I come across some other amazing work of yours using a Sigma DP1?

Thank you very much for sharing.

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Old 07-30-2013   #83
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tsiklonaut, thank you so much for sharing those pictures, they are nothing but awesome and impressive. This is my favourite thread right now!
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Old 07-30-2013   #84
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The Iguazu SFX rendition is amazing. Please keep them posting, Margus.

I hope you have taken one in colour - because imho, that rainbow would look amazing. Perhaps I can't see it in 'colour' B&W because I'm viewing them on a 13 inch laptop.

Bests,

A
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Old 08-03-2013   #85
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I already posted some comparisons between a Nikon8000 and a drum scanner.
But since we now have this excellent thread (many kudos to the OP!), I'll add some picture here as well.

This is a 645 scan (Provia 100 slide); not my sharpest original, but already demystifies all the web-babbles about Nikon & Co. being more than enough for extracting every detail from film (Nikon on the left, ScanMate 11000 on the right)

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Old 08-03-2013   #86
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Nikon comparison media isn't particulary sharp trannie indeed, but the difference is definitely there. I'm surprised how many "faulty" pixel areas Nikon has. I thought ScanMate creates sometimes those barely noticable little "lines" around sharp highlights at 11K which sometimes annoy me, but those are nothing compared to the faults of Nikon.

I also just got a 645, the Fujifilm GA645i rangefinder. I put through the first roll of film just few days ago and after inspecting those I can tell it definitely beats my Pentax 67 SLR sharpest lenses in terms of detail resolving per same square of film. It probably rivals 67 SLR when you compare the overall info recorded on film frame. Makes my Pentax SLR, which I thought was very decent (and proven the same quality as Hasselblad), look rather soft . Although SLRs have many of their own advantages but if you want particulary those very sharp media for comparisons, a decent rangefinder is a way to go.

Cheers,
Margus
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Old 08-04-2013   #87
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what about the Imacon 646? is near in terms of quality?
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Old 08-04-2013   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno Gracia View Post
what about the Imacon 646? is near in terms of quality?
IMO Imacons/Hasselblads are very capable scanners for a CCD technology. Mechanically solid: incredibly fast and easy to use compared to any true drum scanner. But the tests I've seen it still doesn't touch elite drum scanners when the latter is calibrated and operated to their actual capability.

Imacon/Hassy "virtual-drum" scanner's biggest downfall is medium format or larger media scanning limits - they're mostly then capped to 3200ppi or less or 2050ppi for 4x5", which in modern times can be a show-stopper for many clients who need larger prints. Drum scanners and even most other high-end flatbed CCD-scanners (Creo, Kodak, Fuji etc) offer better PPI over bigger scanning areas than 35mm film. (Note this is talking about true PPI - don't even try to compare those common Canon, HP or Epson flatbed scanners DPI/PPI specified numbers that are largely ballooned over reality or just flat-out cheated as I've discussed in the first page of this thread). I know many Imacon operators stich scanning MF film as 35mm film in multiple stages to push out more PPI over larger than 35mm formats, but software stiching of different parts creates it's own set of banding/blending and overall geometry problems that can have visible faulty areas or spots later on.

Then comparison-wise if you forget the numbers is the "feel-factor" of the scans - no CCD scanner looks like a well made PMT scan, from smalles details to overall tonality rendering. A well made PMT scans just tend to "feel" better than any high-end CCD, IMHO at least. This can be largely a taste thing, but PMTs just give much more of that "analog-like" rendering to the scanned images.

One test I've seen various PMT drum scanners compared to various CCDs is here. It's not a perfect comparison, but at least giving you some glimpse when you switch between scanners on the list and compare the sharpened/unsharpened versions.

I'm hoping they could add a ScanMate 11000 to the list as well, when calibrated and focused correctly I'd roughly guess it'd be somewhere between Aztek Premier and Heidelberg Tango in detail- and DR rendering wise.

Margus
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Old 08-04-2013   #89
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The Imacons are at odds for anything larger than 35mm.
Take the top-line Hasselblad/Imacon X5: it reaches 8000 spi on 135, but only 3200 on 120 strips. Even worse at 4x5" where it stops at 2048.
3200 spi for a good 120 original are not nearly good enough to extract every detail, not to mention grain aliasing issues.
And shelling out $$$$ only to have ultra-high-quality for 135... well, it's not my cup of tea.

Fernando
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Old 08-04-2013   #90
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First of all Margus: your shots are BEAUTIFUL!
Really inspiring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsiklonaut View Post
I'm surprised how many "faulty" pixel areas Nikon has.
Those are not faulty pixels.
There were a few dust spots on the original, and the ICE interpolated over them (not visible in print).
The drum scan was wet-mounted so between my abitual pre-mounting cleaning pass and the wet mount itself, dust was not visible anymore.

Quote:
I thought ScanMate creates sometimes those barely noticable little "lines" around sharp highlights at 11K which sometimes annoy me
When it starts doing that, it means it needs some maintenance.
Typical causes for those small "jaggies" or "honeycomb" are a dirty encoder or a "tired" cylinder motor.
Been there, done that; I sent the scanner for maintenance and after that had to replace the motor myself anyway (special order from Maxon, Swiss).
Now it's perfect.
The comparison I posted was from before this maintenance; now it would be quite better.

Quote:
I also just got a 645, the Fujifilm GA645i rangefinder.
...
Although SLRs have many of their own advantages but if you want particulary those very sharp media for comparisons, a decent rangefinder is a way to go.
I don't know the GA645i, but when I properly shoot my P645, it can easily reach 100 lp/mm on slides (not talking about exotics hires BW film), which is as high as today slides go (maybe the first V50 could do a bit more).

But those Iceland shots were all done in a hurry, handheld, with strong wind, polarizer on (- 2.5 stops) and fast manual focus, so it's not really a P645 shortcoming.

That said, they are very nice printed at 60x80cm.
Wet-mounted drum scans sampled at 11'000 and resampled down at print size take a sizeable amount of sharpen without showing grain, something CCD scanners just can't offer.

Fernando
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Old 08-04-2013   #91
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Ah, ICE was turned on, makes sense then.

Lines: actually I had a lot of SCSI transmission issues in the beginning trying to get a working computer+SCSI card combo and this created some clearly visible lines, this I got sorted out.

I've measured the ScanView's specified limits @5000ppi and it's still within the factory spec (less than 1pixel of variation over the target line's length) so the encoder and/or DC motor should be all good on mine.


Keep on posting those drumscans guys!
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Old 08-04-2013   #92
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One more from the same series, a very long exposure & 45mm wide-angle 6x7 frame of Fuji Provia 400X scanned at 3200 ppi:


I was surprised you can almost read out the small number plate from a presumably grainy ASA400 film, "abused" with 3 filters in front of the lens (polarizer, GND and ND) giving very long exposure (3 minutes) and positioned on the edge of wide-angle lens where the optical distorion is already apparent. Considering the conditions - pretty good for an ASA400 film! Just pity Fuji decided to discontinue RXP.
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Old 08-04-2013   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando2 View Post
Those are not faulty pixels.
There were a few dust spots on the original, and the ICE interpolated over them (not visible in print).
I thought those looked strange. Nothing like the Nikon 9000 scans I've been making.

To do a proper comparison I suppose you need to have someone who's mastered all the little tricks of using the Nikon 8000/9000. And for the drum scan as well -- you'd want someone who knows how to get the best out of it.

Then we'd have a better comparison.

I find my Nikon 9000 scans, once I masted Vuescan and use glass carriers, have a very high quality.
The only other CCD film scanner that comes close (or tops the Nikon) is the Minolta 5400 mark I -- but it's much harder to coax a good scan out of the Minolta than the Nikon, i.e. low hit ratio.
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Old 08-04-2013   #94
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@Margus:
Excellent then! The SM11000 delivers tons of quality, expecially at 11'000, at a very nice price point. It's a very good buy.
I also have a couple of DainipponScreen 1030AI but can't touch the SM with a pole.

Let's keep us posted.

Fernando
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Old 08-04-2013   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbrooks View Post
To do a proper comparison I suppose you need to have someone who's mastered all the little tricks of using the Nikon 8000/9000. And for the drum scan as well -- you'd want someone who knows how to get the best out of it.
That's me.
I don't think someone on Earth can extract something better from my machines, so to speak.

I'd just need more spare time and better originals, but I'm too busy for that.

Fernando
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Old 08-04-2013   #96
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I know resolution charts are boring, but hey, once in a time...

ScanMate 11000 BEFORE maintenance (chart shows line pairs/mm directly):




After maintenance:

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Old 08-04-2013   #97
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For comparison: Nikon 8000 after full overhaul by Nikon:

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Old 08-04-2013   #98
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Thanks for your response dear Margus.

So... I've been reading about the SM11000 pretty hard to get, and Imacons and Creo scanner, which is the close in quality scanner to the ScanMate?

Here in the EU is difficult to find..
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Old 08-04-2013   #99
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Bruno,
I'm guessing that you are located in the EU?
There is a PrePress dealer in Germany that sells many different brand of scanners. I think its Brennek? I was looking for replacement bulbs for my Scitex Jazz+ and Scitex Eversmart Pro II. Eventually I bought a dozen bulbs to keep me going for a long while.

If you are stateside, I would recommend buying from Genesis Marketing Equipment. http://www.genesis-equipment.com/

I sold (2) of my Scitex Jazz + to them awhile back. I have just the Eversmart Pro II remaining along with my Imacon Precision II/III.

The SM11000 would probably be better any of the Imacon. I would think that the Scitex Eversmart Supreme II would be its match, provided that its been tweeted by a technician prior to any test comparison.

Evan
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Old 08-04-2013   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno Gracia View Post
Thanks for your response dear Margus.

So... I've been reading about the SM11000 pretty hard to get, and Imacons and Creo scanner, which is the close in quality scanner to the ScanMate?

Here in the EU is difficult to find..

If you ask my personal opinion as an artist who's fanatical about analog photography - none of those CCD scanners even touch the ScanMate 11K. CCD just can't beat a well designed PMT-equipment in terms of analog-like or fineart-like results - it's the unique PMT-rendering with adjustable apertures that no CCD can emulate or simulate. That being said the later Creos/Eversmarts are very capable scanners in class of their own and probably among the best CCD scanners you can buy - flatbed ease with Imacon quality on larger formats - it's much easier to use than any drum scanner for sure.

Yes, ScanMate's are difficult to find in EU, I've seen more in US. ScanMate 5000 and 4000 apparently are also very capable PMT scanners when overhauled, if you find them. Note most of older non-overhauled ScanMates require mainboard modification, which costs around 400EUR.

A couple of months ago guys at Denmark had one completely overhauled SM11000 for sale. Not sure if it's still available.

Cheers,
Margus
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Old 08-04-2013   #101
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I have the Hasselblad flextight Precison II and 2 spare old Mac`s to run it. Several spare lamps. I think I am covered for life... Flextight, new RPX 100 film by MACO and hasselblad V series Zeiss optics... Nothing to worry...
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Old 08-04-2013   #102
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Under palms by tsiklonaut, on Flickr











Panama Canal lock by tsiklonaut, on Flickr











Panama Canal by tsiklonaut, on Flickr











Crops by tsiklonaut, on Flickr

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Old 08-05-2013   #103
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That photo of 'Alien Twin Towers' is great, when I saw the crops, I thought '4x5 Velvia?' but 6x7 400 ISO film?! Amazing amount of detail, makes the Nikon D7000 I used to have look like a crappy mobile phone.
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Old 08-05-2013   #104
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Thank You guys!

So finally if I can't get a SM11K.. The Creo renders better than the latest Hasselblads?
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Old 08-05-2013   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegman View Post
That photo of 'Alien Twin Towers' is great, when I saw the crops, I thought '4x5 Velvia?' but 6x7 400 ISO film?! Amazing amount of detail, makes the Nikon D7000 I used to have look like a crappy mobile phone.
Yep, it's a 6x7 frame of Provia 400X and very wide angle lens 45mm (24mm in 35mm format), plus 3 optical filters in front of the lens to further degrade the quality.

Shorter exposure and w/o the filters I'd be MUCH sharper, but wouldn't have the tonality and the long exposure "effect".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno Gracia View Post
The Creo renders better than the latest Hasselblads?
I'm no specialist of those particular scanners, but in some comparisons I've seen - with 35mm it's probably a close call, but MF and bigger - there's not much competition between them - Creo will blow the Hasselblad/Imacon out of the water.

If you can't find the ScanMate and want to have unique PMTs instead of common CCDs - also you can look for the Heidelberg drum scanners - Tango (or Chromograph if you have lots of room). Parts and support availability and modern Silverfast scanning software support is a very nice feature on those machines.

Cheers,
Margus
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Old 08-05-2013   #106
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If the OP allows me (I really don't want to be off-topic, this is a magnificient thread!!) I could post reschart crops (X5, IQSmart3, SM11K, Screen1030AI).
Anyway, the main shortcoming of the Imacons is the rapidly declining resolution with larger formats.
A Creo can still do 10000x5500 on 4x5" and its maximum format is 12x18"; an X5 does 8000x8000 on 135 but only 3200x3200 on 120 and 2048x2048 in 4x5" (its max format).
The Imacon has much higher microcontrast and perceived sharpness, but also greater grain evidence and dust sensitivity (and you can't wet mount; you can on Creo).
The Creo has some chromatic aberration at maximum resolution.
If you are expecially interested in 135 and you want the absolute best, go for the X5. Otherwise, go for the Creo. Both need accurate and constant maintenance (belts, lamps, etc).
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Old 08-05-2013   #107
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Thanks guys!

Mainly will be for scan my Leica negatives and probably my future Mamiya 7..

So X5 over the Creo for 35 and Creo over the x5 for MF.

The Tango solution seems to be high expensive, isn't it? And too hard to running..

Greetings from Hot South Spain.
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Old 08-05-2013   #108
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Bruno,

I have used drum scanners in the past (Crosfield, H0wtek, Optronics Color Getter, Lintype Tango) For speed and highest possible resolution form a CCD scanner, go for a Creo/Scitex Eversmart Supreme II. Forget about the IQSmart as they made 3 different version - IQ1, IQ2, & IQ3. IQ3 is the best of the lot.

I have the Imacon Precision II/II meaning that it started out as a II but with the Ratoc FRS1X adapter, I am able to upgrade by software to the latest possible software for the III. I find my Creo beating hands down in resolution and quality scan of 6X6 and 4X5 film. Their saving grace is the FlexColor software 3F that allows you to scan in max res as a raw file and then APPLYING the Hasselblad Color LUT based on film used. I find it fantastic in its color rendering.

I would need to play with my LightRoom 4 or upgrade it to LightRoom 5 to get the maximum use out of 3rd party vendor color rendering software.

I did see a SM111000 being posted for sale on Luminous Landscape forum in Poland for $6500 complete. IT is part of 2 scanner setup from a PrePress shop in Poland. Its proabably one of the best "desktop" size scanner I seen. For me the drum is not an option due to space limitation at home.

Evan

Below is the actual message. Hope that someone here buys it! Its in Warsaw, Poland. I have nothing invested in this beside the intended interest to help out fellow scanner operators! Good to all!

-------------------
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/fo...?topic=80803.0

I finally made up my mind.. in the pursuit of drum scanning solution, I ended up with two Scanmate 11000 scanning units. I decided to part with the nicer one. I've managed to buy a Scanmate 11000 which is a complete package- including the manual, drum mounting station, calibration slides, even the key dongles for older version of ColorQuartet and the wooden trunk the scanner came in.
The unit has been purchased from a friend of mine which was a co-owner of a DTP agency- the scanner has a mileage of about 2-3 months of work, rest of the time the unit spent in a dry place in the wooden trunk.
So to sum up, I am selling an almost brand new Scanmate 11000 unit, which is said to be one of top 3 scanning markets on the market, yielding a 3-micrometer aperture (only two scanners I;m aware of that have this aperture is ICG380 and Howtek top model).
I want roughly what I payed for it, around $6500 + shipping. You are more than welcome to pick it up locally of course- the shipping might be expensive becuase the scanner alone weights around 49 kg.
Some photos:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../scanmate1.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../scanmate2.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../scanmate3.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../scanmate4.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../scanmate5.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../scanmate6.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../scanmate7.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../scanmate8.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../scanmate9.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...scanmate10.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...scanmate11.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...scanmate12.jpg

Despite the items you cans ee in the photos, the scanner comes with a second, spare drum. Both drums are in great condition and with wet mounting should give no significant additional work in post-processing, other than some usual dust removal.

Till August 11th I may be now responding to your messages due to my holiday departure. I will however try to stay in touch.. but it's possible that I'll be able to address your questions no sooner than on August 12th.
Maybe I'll post some scanning samples when I get back as well.
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Old 08-05-2013   #109
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thank You very much!

I will think a lot about it, 49 kilos and learn to scan.. mmm..
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Old 08-05-2013   #110
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Due to its scarcity, I think that its a good buy. You might have better support in Europe versus the US. Many of the prepress house has been dumping their working scanner due to lack of support, spare parts, high maintenance plan, and the biggest one of them all, the lost of business for scanning needs.

I'm quite sure that Margus with his knowledge base, can give you some pointers. Just be aware that there is no more new software being written for these babies. You would need to depend on legacy computers to keep it running.

Now I have to make arrangement to pick up a friend's old Apple G4 setup he is no longer using! A backup to my 3 scanners...
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Old 08-06-2013   #111
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wow.. old computer mmm ... it's not the best solution for me..

Sadly I have to go for a CCD scanner.. anyway, X5 or Creo will be great solution! if Meyerowitz use them...
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Old 08-06-2013   #112
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Bruno,

The Creo/Scitex scanners would also fall into the legacy software and hardware issue too. Last version of the softqare was written for use with Snow Leopard. No PC software as far as I know.

If you go this route, you will be limited to the Intel-based Mac and software no higher than Snow Leopard.

Th drum scanners would also fall into this same category. If you are able to get a test sample scan from whichever scanner you decide on, that would give you a good idea as to which one to go with. Personally I find the drum scanner gives you the best quality. Look into the ICG scanner. The company is still in operation and are fully supported.

http://www.icg.ltd.uk/
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Old 08-06-2013   #113
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thanks Evan, so my only two choices are The Flextight X1/5... I'm Mac user by the way.


EDIT:

ICG 380 New Starts at 80,000.00
Used models are available from 25,000.00-30,000.00


PFFFFFF


Back to the SM11000?
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Old 08-06-2013   #114
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There are some really excellent photographs and wonderful scans here. Thanks for sharing with us. This is very impressive. - jim
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Old 08-06-2013   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno Gracia View Post
thanks Evan, so my only two choices are The Flextight X1/5... I'm Mac user by the way.


EDIT:

ICG 380 New Starts at 80,000.00
Used models are available from 25,000.00-30,000.00

Yup, this is the nominal price range of elite drum scanners when brand new. Welcome to the world of hand-built true high-end

Add the maintenance cost and skillset required - drum scanners used to be affordable only to pre-press/industrial companies, just handful of pro-photographers could afford them as personal tools. With common sense most elite photographers (NatGeo etc) just used elite drum scanning services, and very successfully results/costs ratio wise during film's haydays.

I'm always amazed the phenomena in nature that there's a certain point somwhere 80-85% of the best possible quality, a point where if you want it to get better quality the price (or resource required) starts to grow expoentially while the quality you for it still increases linearly. In all fields (cars, motorcycles, scientific equipment, military electronics etc etc) it's the same phenomena

Yet a simple relativity theory tells us the 25,000 for a fully overhauled ICG ready for years of high-end service is still cheap when you compare it to some 20,000 for a brand new but still very limited (in comparison) Hasselblad X5. Everything in life is relative...

Cheers,
Margus
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Old 08-06-2013   #116
Evanjoe610
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Margus and Bruno,


You are correct in stating " you get what you pay for".

The Linotype Tango is similar to the ICG as it is also a vertical scanner. A used Linotype or Hell scanner can purchased from Karl Husdon of Kiel, Germany.

Here is his website: http://www.hudsongrafik.com/?p=equip

If I had the money and have customers, I would buy the ICG.

For now I will continue to use my Mac based scanners (Imacon & Creo/Scitex) on my legacy equipment. The Imacon can be used on PC running Windows 7 Pro using a Ratoc FRS1X adapter.
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Old 08-06-2013   #117
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thank You both, mmmm... probably best solution is leave other people do the work and pay for it.
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Old 08-07-2013   #118
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Old 08-07-2013   #119
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Margus,

Nice photos! Are these your own photos that you shot over the years? I 'm guessing that you do a lot of traveling. What equipment do you use to shot with?

Evan
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Old 08-07-2013   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno Gracia View Post
mmmm... probably best solution is leave other people do the work and pay for it.
I guess it sums up drum scanning for those not keen to the hassles involved in the process of getting the high-end quality drumscans. It's definitely not for everyone... And hence not the cheapest when using as service, but well worth every penny if you ask me, since the quality and rendering is not only at the top notch level but also unique throught those PMTs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Evanjoe610 View Post
Nice photos! Are these your own photos that you shot over the years? I 'm guessing that you do a lot of traveling. What equipment do you use to shot with?

Hi Evan,

I'm now living normal life again w/o much travelling, but yes, I did a round the world expedition on my motorcycle some years ago and slowly scanning those film materials. Most of them are from an old Pentax 67 camera (around as old as I am).

Cheers,
Margus
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