Old 12-31-2010   #81
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I disagree, the market goes back and forth due to the economy, but I'm pretty sure that the mint boxed matching numbers IIIG /Leicavit/ Elmar f2.8/50 combo with Leicavit case I sold in 1992 in Germany for $4,500 was a sound investment
Do you happen to know what the combination cost when new?
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Old 12-31-2010   #82
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Do you happen to know what the combination cost when new?
A little under $600.......it was and still is an investment


Tom
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Old 12-31-2010   #83
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No matter what this cost new.....this is very kool and lot's of fun
*Thanks Santa for the motor!*

My "Sharkskin" 1945/48 IIIC K Chrome and a 1948 Black Paint MOOLY C motor.

Let's see some more IIIC K's posted here, show off your K!

Enjoy!

Tom
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Old 12-31-2010   #84
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Excellent looking set Tom, (I'm Green with Envy as usual).

To join in I could paint a K on the shutter of my IIICs ....nah....
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Fyi
Old 01-05-2011   #85
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Fyi

Got the 'just arrived' email from Leicashop this morning, they have two IIIc-K's for sale at the moment, a grey one with Summitar and a civilian issue chrome one! Prices are inflated though.

Links:

https://www.leicashop.com/vintage/iiic-grey-p-75.html
and
https://www.leicashop.com/vintage/ii...ry39-p-58.html

Other grey cameras and a 1941 Stepper are here too (bottom of page):
https://www.leicashop.com/vintage/le...1001.html?ja=1

Nothing like the excitement of an open eBay auction, but it'll be interesting to see how long these cameras last and the shots of them are greatly detailed, exquisite camera p*rn!
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Old 01-05-2011   #86
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Ahhh, Leicashop - never knowingly underpriced!
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Old 01-05-2011   #87
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Tom - have you tried that MOOLY-C on a post-war IIIc or a IIIf? I know that you and I spoke about it when I had my black MOOLY-C (which now in Taiwan somewhere!), and it didn't work for me because of the different 'notch' at the end of the winding shaft in the camera. Just curious.....
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Old 01-05-2011   #88
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Tom - have you tried that MOOLY-C on a post-war IIIc or a IIIf? I know that you and I spoke about it when I had my black MOOLY-C (which now in Taiwan somewhere!), and it didn't work for me because of the different 'notch' at the end of the winding shaft in the camera. Just curious.....
Heya Vince!

Yes, my motor came recently from a very well known collection (from the late Fred Sternenberg LHSA) and it was "mated" to a #395xxx issue "Stepper" IIIC (Oct 1945) and the notches and shaft fit up perfectly with my 1945/48 IIIC K, the motor mates up but Jim Lager told me that a few small adjustments have to be made to match the camera to motor, while it only cycles one shot, the spring and movement are very nice and firm, the motor is maybe 98% paint and wasn't used very much, it matches the "Sharkskin" camera well, as soon as I can afford to send off the combo with lens, they go to DAG for CLA.

Tom
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Old 01-06-2011   #89
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Oh oh! I spotted something affordable in that Leicashop link
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Old 01-06-2011   #90
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Oh oh! I spotted something affordable in that Leicashop link
Hahahahhahahaha! Is someone here buying a IIIC K? ~ Hope so, I feel so damm alone here, LOL!!!!!!!!!

I know (3) John's here at RFF have a grey IIIC K or two, just would like to see someone else enjoying them too

My daliy camera now is a 1945 Chrome which I've used for a few years now.........the "Major's" US Army Signal Corps camera #3905xx K with the Elmar has been retired and the "Sharkskin" IIIC K is working fine after the Youxin Ye CLA....just haven't had a real film shoot yet this year
*I still have one more camera to CLA-Restore a #391xxx "K" camera that needs a replacement vulcvanite shell* - I'm hoping to start a website soon, so I can add more photos there too.

John Neal, how's your restoration going on your 1943? Let me know about the paint/vulcanite situation.

I'm perfecting the original styled "K" STAMP for the shutter curtain and I will someday offer that service to stamp verified cameras that owners want restored.

Tom
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Old 01-06-2011   #91
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A IIIc K? I wish! No, trawling through the lenses and accessories I saw a nice lens that I would gladly spend part of my NewYear's bonus on. ...Shame I have to wait a bit longer before I get that cash

Oh well, a diet of tinned beans will do until then.
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Old 01-06-2011   #92
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Originally Posted by Mr_Flibble View Post
A IIIc K? I wish! No, trawling through the lenses and accessories I saw a nice lens that I would gladly spend part of my NewYear's bonus on. ...Shame I have to wait a bit longer before I get that cash

Oh well, a diet of tinned beans will do until then.
hahahahah I know what you mean

Tom
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Old 01-15-2011   #93
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Here is a very very rare coated "Belag" 1944 Hektor f4.5/135 "Grey Paint" lens for use with a IIIC K Grey body (mainly German Army) ~ this lens came from a private Florida collection (it was a WW2 "Bringback" lens from an officer who was in the O.S.S.) ~ and was in the mid to high 4 figures $$$ and it ranks as one of the rarest of all WW2 era Leitz made lenses.

This will be a featured item at my static museum website mounted together on my 1943 IIIC K Grey (I'm taking some studio shots with the pair in just a few hours) more information will be posted at the website......

Enjoy!

Tom
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http://www.modelmayhem.com/118

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Old 01-15-2011   #94
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Very interesting item Tom! I know these lenses very well.
This would be out from the official batch, isn't it?
Send me a message if you want to tell me more.
Many compliments again!
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Old 01-15-2011   #95
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Very interesting item Tom! I know these lenses very well.
This would be out from the official batch, isn't it?
Send me a message if you want to tell me more.
Many compliments again!
Yes, it is from the official batch from a 1944 issue, I will post more about this one when my website goes up, ok?

Thanks

Tom
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Old 01-15-2011   #96
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Ok Tom!

As you know there is one and only one batch signed "gray" : lenses were delivered on 9-29-1941 to the "Acquisitions Department" of the German Army in Berlin (Beschaffungsamt der Wehrmacht in Berlin), they were done for the only batch of the extra rare Leica IIIC W.H. chrome.

But there are genuine not signed , not listed as "gray", only "Hefar" in the delivery book.
The truly original signed "gray Hefar" from the official batch are ultra rare (and worth a lot more) I know of three of them only, from this batch they were never auctioned as far as I know (nor Westlicht, Breker ,Tamarkin, IGavel....).

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Old 01-15-2011   #97
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Ok Tom!

As you know there is one and only one batch signed "gray" : lenses were delivered on 9-29-1941 to the "Acquisitions Department" of the German Army in Berlin (Beschaffungsamt der Wehrmacht in Berlin), they were done for the only batch of the extra rare Leica IIIC W.H. chrome.

But there are genuine not signed , not listed as "gray", only "Hefar" in the delivery book.
The truly original signed "gray Hefar" from the official batch are ultra rare (and worth a lot more) I know of three of them only, from this batch they were never auctioned as far as I know (nor Westlicht, Breker ,Tamarkin, IGavel....).

Cheers.
Well, this one came from a batch that Jim Lager documented in one of his books, it is not noted as a Wehmacht lens and the batch listed is like 26 lenses only, I have NEVER seen a 1944 issue Grey lens before, I have seen like 3 1941's ~ Westlicht had one sold at auction 2 years ago for $10.500 and it was in only EX condition, I know of one other lens that sold private two years ago and one lens that I think is STILL at a dealer I know of...

Tom
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Old 01-15-2011   #98
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I know, I had a long argumentation with Jim about these lenses.

I saw both the lenses sold by Westlicht, both belonged from unofficial batch, civilian not written gray, they were n.575.601 (year 1945) and n.576.078 (year 1944).

There are various grey lenses from not official batches, here and there.
For ex. in a grouping of 13.5cm Hektors sent to Berlin on
6.1.45 (15 lenses ) on shipment 13099,
This is only months before the capitulation.
Another batch, sent to Berlin on 4.9.44 on shipment 9778.
Both "...Absolutely no mention of grey finish, many
of these grey HEFAR lenses are not written grey in the records ", Jim wrote me, "but believed genuine".

I know of registered gray Hefar 1941, very few survives, but according to Jim the "almost mythical Hefar " is the WH marked (one and only one batch), rarer than the gray, also different from all the other Hefar!
There are suggestions that Leitz held the focal length of the WH HEFAR to very tight tolerances.
This was done presumably to maintain uniform measurement results.

Cheers

P.S.: yes I have a number of these items, a very interesting field for the researcher/collector that I am.
In the case I will make you know, thank you.
---
P.P.S: your Hefar is really nice!
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Old 01-15-2011   #99
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Originally Posted by sabears View Post
I know, I had a long argumentation with Jim about these lenses.

I saw both the lenses sold by Westlicht, both belonged from unofficial batch, civilian not written gray, they were n.575.601 (year 1945) and n.576.078 (year 1944).

There are various grey lenses from not official batches, here and there.
For ex. in a grouping of 13.5cm Hektors sent to Berlin on
6.1.45 (15 lenses ) on shipment 13099,
This is only months before the capitulation.
Another batch, sent to Berlin on 4.9.44 on shipment 9778.
Both "...Absolutely no mention of grey finish, many
of these grey HEFAR lenses are not written grey in the records ", Jim wrote me, "but believed genuine".

I know of registered gray Hefar 1941, very few survives, but according to Jim the "almost mythical Hefar " is the WH marked (one and only one batch), rarer than the gray, also different from all the other Hefar!
There are suggestions that Leitz held the focal length of the WH HEFAR to very tight tolerances.
This was done presumably to maintain uniform measurement results.

Cheers

P.S.: yes I have a number of these items, a very interesting field for the researcher/collector that I am.
In the case I will make you know, thank you.
---
P.P.S: your Hefar is really nice!
Email me off this thread please.....

Thanks

Tom
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I'm also a Vintage Volkswagen Collector, Driver and Enthusiast ~ I own a 1957 "Oval Window" Beetle named "Blauchen" (oV!Vo) Beep!

http://www.modelmayhem.com/118

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Old 01-16-2011   #100
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Done!

Cheers.
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Old 01-18-2011   #101
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Here's my 1943 IIIC K Grey camera, 1944 Grey Hektor 135mm lens, a FIKUS hood, Black Nose VIOOH finder and OKARO rangefinder filter.

Enjoy!

Tom
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Old 01-19-2011   #102
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Email me off this thread please.....

Thanks

Tom
Hi Tom, I have not received your response.
May be my message with informations regarding coated lenses etc. gone lost?

However, no problem, the buyer of the lens (O.M.) asked to me regarding this lens, as he knows that I'm a researcher in the field.

Wartime collectors/researchers is a little family...

I'm still interested about the gray Hektor owned by the dealer you say, do you have photos or serial n.? Conditions?What's the requested price? ...
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Old 01-19-2011   #103
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Hi Tom, I have not received your response.
May be my message with informations regarding coated lenses etc. gone lost?

However, no problem, the buyer of the lens (O.M.) asked to me regarding this lens, as he knows that I'm a researcher in the field.

Wartime collectors/researchers is a little family...

I'm still interested about the gray Hektor owned by the dealer you say, do you have photos or serial n.? Conditions?What's the requested price? ...
Sorry my email was acting up.......I'll get back to you

Tom
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Old 02-20-2011   #104
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Here is a very very very rare 1941 KM Hektor
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Old 02-20-2011   #105
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Here is a very very very rare 1941 KM Hektor

wow, this belongs to museum. You should donate it.
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Old 02-20-2011   #106
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Here is a very very very rare 1941 KM Hektor
Does anyone know definitively - with original source material -- what the MF engraving stands for?

Thanks
Stephen
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Old 02-20-2011   #107
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Does anyone know definitively - with original source material -- what the MF engraving stands for?

Thanks
Stephen
Stephen the MF is Marineflieger(German navy)but the numbers
( 630, 685, 690 ) are not known from what i have heard.
Jim Lager says " my guess is a specific
aircraft , unit, or crew."
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Old 02-20-2011   #108
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Does anyone know definitively - with original source material -- what the MF engraving stands for?
Common wisdom holds it to stand for "Marineflieger", that is naval air arm. This is very improbable, though, because the German Kriegsmarine (navy) during the war had no naval air force as such. Units called "Marineflieger" had existed in Germany only during WW1 until the Versailles treaty forbade the possession of aircraft, and then again only after the post-WW2 rearmament (the "Kommando der Marineflieger" was established in 1956).

There were some "Seeflieger" units after the beginning of open rearmament in 1935. These were called "Seeflieger" and subdivided into "Küstenflieger" (coastal air arm) and "Bordflieger" (on-board air arm). However, in 1939 Göring gave the famous command that "all that flies belong to me", dissolving them and integrating them into the regular air force on 27 January 1939. Even the on-board aircraft on Navy surface ships (mostly Arado 196s after 1938 or so) were Luftwaffe aircraft and had Luftwaffe markings.
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Old 02-21-2011   #109
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MF = Marine-Fotografen then? Meaning Marine-Photographer.
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Old 02-21-2011   #110
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I guess, without official reference there's no way of telling. It might as well be Marine Funker, Radio Operator. I have no idea who had the official task of taking photographs on board vessels within the Kriegsmarine
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Old 02-21-2011   #111
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I guess, without official reference there's no way of telling. It might as well be Marine Funker, Radio Operator. I have no idea who had the official task of taking photographs on board vessels within the Kriegsmarine
The PK had the responsiblity of taking pictures during Militray operations (Propaganda Kompanie) *I hope the spellings right?* each military function of the German War machine had PK units (Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine and Wehrmacht) as well as the KB (Kriegsberichter) *War correspondents* who also sometimes took pictures as well.

The 1942 Leica IIIC/Xenon combo I once owned was a 100% verified original camera issued to a PK unit working with the German U-Boat arm, the camera was part of some Royal Navy Booty recovered from a damaged U-Boat from the surviving German PK Officer's kit.

I personally believe that the Kriegsmarine MF numbers are like the FL numbers are to the Luftwaffe, they are series numbers to identify offically ordered kits and equipment used by the Navy, the Leitz dockets have recorded the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe issues very thoroughly and if it doesn't say so in the original docket it's NOT an original item.

There has recently been a serge of faked WW2 German and British engraved lenses on the ebay lately, so take my advice it's always best to have anything that's militray marked verified by an expert who has access to the original Leitz dockets and files, before you invest any $$$$$$ in anything that's WW2 military marked.

Tom
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Old 02-21-2011   #112
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The PK had the responsiblity of taking pictures during Militray operations
(Propaganda Kompanie) *I hope the spellings right?* each military function of the German War machine had PK units (Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine/Wehrmacht as well as KB (Kriegsberichter) *War correspondents* who also sometimes took pictures as well.
Well but of course this only covers photography for propaganda purposes, basically military journalism.

There are all sorts of other military uses for a Leica, from reconnaissance to documentation to immediate military applications such as artillery spotting. Of course those wouldn't be handled by a Propagandakompanie. My grandfather (who's still alive and whose R5 I now use) was an antiaircraft gunner and radar engineer, and he used to tell me the first Leica he used was an army issue model used to document all sorts of things around the antiaircraft installation.
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Old 02-21-2011   #113
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...Ohh btw here's a good question aimed at any WW2 British Military experts

On the Allied side we American's had the US Army Signal Corps/Photo or Photographic Unit and also US War Correspondents/Stars & Stripes taking the photos/film on the battlefields of Europe and the Pacific in WW2.

What were the British Militray Camera carriers called?????

Tom
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Old 02-21-2011   #114
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"AFPU" Army Film & Photography Unit, as I recall.

I've been meaning to put a uniform together for a AFPU member in North Africa, to go together with my Zeiss Super Ikonta. I need to do some more research on it though.
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Old 02-21-2011   #115
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Well but of course this only covers photography for propaganda purposes, basically military journalism.

There are all sorts of other military uses for a Leica, from reconnaissance to documentation to immediate military applications such as artillery spotting. Of course those wouldn't be handled by a Propagandakompanie. My grandfather (who's still alive and whose R5 I now use) was an antiaircraft gunner and radar engineer, and he used to tell me the first Leica he used was an army issue model used to document all sorts of things around the antiaircraft installation.
Right, I think with working the camera especially on an aircraft like that was very flexible, when I lived in Germany I talked to some ex- Heinkel and Dornier crew members about photographing over England during the Battle of Britian and one pilot told me that the navigator or bomb aimer used the Leica on board his aircraft, an other Officer told me one of his gunners did the photography.

Interesting - rxmd does your Grandfather have any photography from his time in service?

Tom
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http://www.modelmayhem.com/118

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Old 02-21-2011   #116
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I know, I had a long argumentation with Jim about these lenses.

I saw both the lenses sold by Westlicht, both belonged from unofficial batch, civilian not written gray, they were n.575.601 (year 1945) and n.576.078 (year 1944).

There are various grey lenses from not official batches, here and there.
For ex. in a grouping of 13.5cm Hektors sent to Berlin on
6.1.45 (15 lenses ) on shipment 13099,
This is only months before the capitulation.
Another batch, sent to Berlin on 4.9.44 on shipment 9778.
Both "...Absolutely no mention of grey finish, many
of these grey HEFAR lenses are not written grey in the records ", Jim wrote me, "but believed genuine".

I know of registered gray Hefar 1941, very few survives, but according to Jim the "almost mythical Hefar " is the WH marked (one and only one batch), rarer than the gray, also different from all the other Hefar!
There are suggestions that Leitz held the focal length of the WH HEFAR to very tight tolerances.
This was done presumably to maintain uniform measurement results.

Cheers

P.S.: yes I have a number of these items, a very interesting field for the researcher/collector that I am.
In the case I will make you know, thank you.
---
P.P.S: your Hefar is really nice!
From the above, apparently the Leica docket is not the end-it-all of genuine lens-dom either then... I guess we will just never know for sure.


The Propaganda Kompagnien were initially made up from civilian reporters, who were drafted into specific military and journalist training. Later, other reporters voluntarily enlisted to join, since it was the most endeavouring way of journalism in the Third Reich.

Kriegsberichter were ordered to produce written and spoken journalism, as were Bildberichter who filmed, photographed and drew the hostilities. There were even stenographers in the PK's.


The '690' engraving on the lens shown most certainly is not a PK-number, the 690 Kompagnie was created in 1940, employed to the Wehrmacht Heer and joined the invasion of France. After that, the '690' engraving could mean almost anything...
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Old 02-21-2011   #117
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"AFPU" Army Film & Photography Unit, as I recall.

I've been meaning to put a uniform together for a AFPU member in North Africa, to go together with my Zeiss Super Ikonta. I need to do some more research on it though.
Very kool Rick! ~ Now I know what they called their units thx!

I'm planning on doing a US Army reenactment uniform as one of the
"Stevens Irregulars"
maybe rank of Major or an SFC haven't decided yet? - ca. 1944/5 ~ with that light colored zipper down jacket and that funny looking knit or wool hat,
(like Ernie Pyle wore - I don't know the Army issue numbers for them)



......and running around with a chrome 45' IIIC K and a CZJ Sonnar f1.5/50 on it ............one of these days!

Tom
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I'm also a Vintage Volkswagen Collector, Driver and Enthusiast ~ I own a 1957 "Oval Window" Beetle named "Blauchen" (oV!Vo) Beep!

http://www.modelmayhem.com/118

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Old 02-21-2011   #118
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From the above, apparently the Leica docket is not the end-it-all of genuine lens-dom either then... I guess we will just never know for sure.

That item is reffering to the special ordered Grey paint Hektor 135's, (non Military lenses or some limited W.H. issues) but that's a opening up a whole other can of worms there.......... and a very complex story.

The Kriegsmarine stuff is pretty cut and dry to identify, there were very few issues during WW2 (they were very well documented) and very few have survived, so many fakes abound.

What's happening with your CZJ/LTM Sonnar's lately.......anything new on that???

Tom
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I'm a Retro PinUp Photographer using vintage M39/LTM Leica/ CZJ Sonnar/ Nippon Kogaku and Canon lenses with a Leica M8 Digital
I'm also a Vintage Volkswagen Collector, Driver and Enthusiast ~ I own a 1957 "Oval Window" Beetle named "Blauchen" (oV!Vo) Beep!

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Old 02-21-2011   #119
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A lot of WW2 re-enactment vendors stock the wool-knit "Jeep Cap". They were standard issue, to be worn under the M1 Helmet for comfort. But they became popular to wear without the helmet to the annoyance of a certain general who was big on ties too.


"Radio th' ol' man we'll be late on account of a thousand-mile detour."

Jeep coats like Ernie wore in that photo are not replicated on a big scale yet and thus quite expensive.


Jorge Lewinsky devotes a chapter of "The Camera At War" on the AFPU, mainly structure and organisation. He mentions that a lot of the photos taken in Africa by some units were 're-enacted' with British soldiers dressed up as Italians.
Peter Maslowski in "Armed with Cameras" mentions that US camera units were forbidden to stage scenes. Though some film footage from Italy clearly shows GIs waiting for a que to begin a scene. And 'Dead' GIs appearing in later scenes.

As I recall the AFPU photographers were issued Zeiss Super Ikonta 530 and 532 cameras (Bought in large quantities through Turkey) , Rolleiflexes and Kodak Medalists.
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Old 02-21-2011   #120
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...

What's happening with your CZJ/LTM Sonnar's lately.......anything new on that???

Tom
Spring break here but no spring in sight, bright sun & harsh light but sub zero temperatures due to continental northeastern wind.

Yet, I hope to shoot some stuff tomorrow with the 50/1.5 and 135/4.0 Sonnars!

I'm thinking rural countryside stuff, hope to get some people in there as well.
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