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Sell Leica M4 for X-E2?
Old 11-29-2016   #1
Georgiy Romanov
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Sell Leica M4 for X-E2?

Good day for community! I have a deep GAS attack and looking forward on your advices. For almost two years I didn't buy new cameras and always using what I have - M4 with Voight 35 1.7+ summicron 50\2 and Fujiklasse W for 28mm. Those cameras give me a lot of good memories and pictures, but reality in todays Russia are tough. In 2016 I had shot less than 30 rolls of low quality film, meanwhile my only digital camera is Fujifilm X20. Not enough for me and my work.

As a writer for russian photography mag I had access to many digital cameras and most of all I liked the Fuji X-Pro2, but I can not afford this camera right now and same in the next year. So may be start with X-E2 model? I tested X-E2S with manual focus lens and love it. Almost like Leica

My main dilemma: keep the Leica or sell it. I can keep M4, buy X-E2 model and take pictures with Summicron and Vioghtlander 35 1.7 or sell all my stuff and afford one-two Fujinon glass for X-E2 camera.

In my case with Leica M4 I have too many memories, but as an instrument I can not use camera as often as I want it because of the high prices on the film. Especially on the good one.

With best regards, Georgiy.
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Old 11-29-2016   #2
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Your Leica will still be working in 20 years.
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Old 11-29-2016   #3
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Tough question. XE-2 is really cheap now. So keep both. BTW Fuji firmware can make into an EX-2s for free.
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Old 11-29-2016   #4
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How about a used X-E1 for like $150?

Edit... I guess more like $175-$225
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Old 11-29-2016   #5
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What JS said ^^^^

I still use an xe1..... a lot.
You can pair it with a xf 2/35 and have a camera and lens combo for a lesser amount of money than an xe2 body alone.

The Xe1 is not the fastest fuji but,... if one is used to the workflow of a leica M, the xe1 will feel quite responsive and the IQ of both cameras is nearly identical.
I use a toshiba flash card in the xe1 to give it wifi ability.
Works great with iPhone or Tablet.
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Old 11-29-2016   #6
Georgiy Romanov
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Fujifilm X-E1 sounds like good compromise for me. Will look deeper!

Other opinions are welcome! Thank you.
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Old 11-29-2016   #7
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The X-E1/2 is perhaps the closest non-Leica digital to the rangefinder feel and philosophy...you'll probably enjoy it a lot
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Old 11-29-2016   #8
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Don't do it. The XE2 will only depreciate in value, the M4 won't. There will soon be an XE3 and your XE2 will become even more obsolete. I've tried digital many times but keep coming back to film and regret wasting my time.
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Old 11-29-2016   #9
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Originally Posted by Mjd-djm View Post
Don't do it. The XE2 will only depreciate in value, the M4 won't. There will soon be an XE3 and your XE2 will become even more obsolete. I've tried digital many times but keep coming back to film and regret wasting my time.
I see this a lot... but isn't the photos you make and what works better for your photography more important than depreciation? You aren't buying film either with a digital.
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Old 11-29-2016   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabelsound View Post
The X-E1/2 is perhaps the closest non-Leica digital to the rangefinder feel and philosophy...you'll probably enjoy it a lot
Add the X-Pro1/2 to this list too though.
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Old 11-29-2016   #11
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I see this a lot... but isn't the photos you make and what works better for your photography more important than depreciation? You aren't buying film either with a digital.
That is absolutely true and I guess each person has different preferences. The satisfaction with the results is more important than depreciation. My problem with digital is that its too easy to want the next latest and greatest camera. With a Leica M you know what you have and it is virtually 'timeless'.
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Old 11-29-2016   #12
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When I bought my film Leica, I knew it's value would stay. I knew when I bought a digital camera, that I expected to eat its original cost. This is just facts.
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Old 11-29-2016   #13
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I currently shoot with Leica M6 and Fuji X-Pro1. If I were in your position, I would sell the Leica M4 body and get a Fuji X-Pro1 body and a Leica M to Fuji X adapter. I would use the X-Pro1 with the Leica M lenses until I decided if I wanted to replace the lenses with Fujinon lenses.


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Old 11-29-2016   #14
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Old 11-29-2016   #15
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As a die hard Fuji fan and a past Leica user... I would never be happy using Leica lenses on a Fuji. The RF of a Leica is my favorite manual focus aid and I feel the digital counterparts in the Fujis doesn't even come close. I'd honestly figure out how to keep both.
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Old 11-29-2016   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgiy Romanov View Post
In my case with Leica M4 I have too many memories, but as an instrument I can not use camera as often as I want it because of the high prices on the film. Especially on the good one.

With best regards, Georgiy.
I use all sorts of film, and still find the cheapest stuff like Fuji C200/Agfa 200 to be excellent.

Thread on it here:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...d.php?t=147318

For your dilemma, you can always buy back your Leica for what you sell it for, the beauty of buying/selling used Leica film cameras! Get the Fuji and see where it goes for you.
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Old 11-29-2016   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
How about a used X-E1 for like $150?

Edit... I guess more like $175-$225
Another +1 for JSR.

I'm trying to convince my oldest not to sink a wad of cash he has burning a hole in his pocket into Canon DSLR for digital video and stills and look more used or mid market camera/system to make sure he likes carrying all that around vs output.

It sounds like you would be able to shoot more digital (on going costs vs film/processing/scanning) which IMHO is a great thing. When combined with ruthless editing and critiquing is a great way to learn and get better.

Starting out with a Bessa and deciding that RF is not your thing is less of an investment than diving right in.

Best of luck and keep us in the loop as to what you decide and how it works out of you.

B2 (;->
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Old 11-29-2016   #18
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Any digital camera without Leica label on it is turning into paperweight quickly.
Fuji X-E2 is no exseptions. Three years from now it is going to be as x-e1 now. Couple hundreds.
But from couple of years from now M4 will needs CLA which is also couple hundreds. And here is big chance what x-e2 will last five years before owners turns his back on it or button becomes sticky.

What is cheaper to buy film and run CLA for film camera or to have digital camera which is not sexy after three years? It depends.

Cinema old color film cost next to nothing and works for bw. In Russia they don't care if it is Leica or FED and Cron or Jupiter. It is even more cool with FED and with Kiev you are like Che.

Any way, short term solution is to sell Leica film gear and buy digital regular camera, which is going to be old within three years and then what?
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Old 11-29-2016   #19
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Any digital camera without Leica label on it is turning into paperweight quickly....

Cinema old color film cost next to nothing and works for bw. In Russia they don't care if it is Leica or FED and Cron or Jupiter. .....
Russia is a very diverse country and I'm not sure you can generalize the price, availability of film and/or processing. I'm not sure about up north, but around Iowa and Illinois the number of places with local processing and printing has decreased. Yeah, you can ship the rolls out but then you have shipping costs, and if you did that in some countries issues with potential loss.

I'm not sure that the race for better dedicated cameras in so many different form factors will continue. Smart phone cameras are at or about to cross the "Good Enough" line.

If GRD III was still working I'd still be using it. Why haven't I gotten it fixed? It cost more than I want to pay as my iPhone 5 still does an OK-enough job for me. I have more critical thing to spend cash on.

I agree that an M4 is a beautiful tool that will likely hold its value and be usable for many years to come. But it's not like there aren't a reasonable number available for purchase at any given point in time. I'd invest in a small set of tools that meet your needs and help you journey along the path of creating photographs. A good digital body and a couple of lenses sound like it would be a higher return on investment, and perhaps a lot more fun.

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Old 11-29-2016   #20
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As a die hard Fuji fan and a past Leica user... I would never be happy using Leica lenses on a Fuji. The RF of a Leica is my favorite manual focus aid and I feel the digital counterparts in the Fujis doesn't even come close. I'd honestly figure out how to keep both.
I'll give this a second. I have the Fuji adapter and all it does is make it quick to get in the menu so if you need to go to M lenses, just get a decent third party adapter. As jsrocket notes, the focus experience isn't the same. I'd love to use my M lenses on the Fuji but it just doesn't seem to work for me. Focus peaking isn't that good, it doesn't snap into focus and over all isn't an easy way to get the focus. As noted, an XE1 can be had pretty cheaply and the 35/2 is a reasonably priced lens. All this said, still keep the M4. You'll hate yourself for selling it.
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Old 11-29-2016   #21
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Russia is a very diverse country and I'm not sure you can generalize the price, availability of film and/or processing. I'm not sure about up north, but around Iowa and Illinois the number of places with local processing and printing has decreased. Yeah, you can ship the rolls out but then you have shipping costs, and if you did that in some countries...
I know where OP is in Russia. I was passing by local train his town twice few weeks ago. It isn't north of Iowa with high shipping costs. More like NJ...

But film is not cheap in Russia and the rest of bw components isn't cheap either.
Personally, I quit color film even from where I'm in Canada....
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Old 11-29-2016   #22
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Regardless of your choice of digital camera, keep the M4. They aren't making those any more, and they will never be superseded as film cameras.

I have an XE-1. It is very slow to AF with Fuji lenses, but I have no complaints about the IQ. I would look at an XE-2 at least, as you may end up with a Fuji lens or two in the future, even if you start with M mount lenses.

Cheers

J
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Old 11-29-2016   #23
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Quote:
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I see this a lot... but isn't the photos you make and what works better for your photography more important than depreciation? You aren't buying film either with a digital.
i started to formulate my response and shazam, you beat me to it.
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Old 11-29-2016   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Add the X-Pro1/2 to this list too though.
Agreed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Any digital camera without Leica label on it is turning into paperweight quickly.

Fuji X-E2 is no exseptions. Three years from now it is going to be as x-e1 now. Couple hundreds.
In other words, the opposite of a paperweight? Rather, a highly capable camera at a very low price. It's only obsolete if you buy into the upgrade cycle, which seems increasingly unnecessary to me. Personally, my needs topped out at 16MP...I would love an XP2 and will probably get one when I can afford it, for its speed and ease of use. But I'll wince at every 24MP file.

From about four years ago and moving forward, used digital just seems like a better and better value to me.
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Old 11-29-2016   #25
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This is not to say that the M4 isn't a fantastic camera!
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Old 11-29-2016   #26
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In other words, the opposite of a paperweight? Rather, a highly capable camera at a very low price. It's only obsolete if you buy into the upgrade cycle, which seems increasingly unnecessary to me. Personally, my needs topped out at 16MP...I would love an XP2 and will probably get one when I can afford it, for its speed and ease of use. But I'll wince at every 24MP file.

From about four years ago and moving forward, used digital just seems like a better and better value to me.
Yes, paperweight from upgrade cycle and prestige POV. I have one DSLR from 2009, which is still hard to beat.
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Old 11-29-2016   #27
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I wouldn't sell the Leica. You can save a lot of money by waiting for 2 or 3 year old used digital cameras. Get one or 2 Fuji lenses when you can but first an adaptor for your Leica lenses. (I just bought a $10 adaptor (shipped) for my Nikon lenses to Fuji X.
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Old 11-29-2016   #28
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As I read the original message you're mostly planning to keep the M4 but trying to decide whether to sell the Leica glass to fund a purchase of Fuji glass. Everything in me revolts at recommending you do that and I would try as hard as I could with selling as little as possible. They are wonderful lenses and can be used on whatever Fuji you buy.

But...

They won't have the field of view you're used to and that may become increasingly annoying over time. The wides also won't perform as well on the Fuji as they did on film. The problems are overstated online, I think, but they aren't non-existent.

So to the extent you're looking to economize on new lenses I'd think about buying a really wide Fuji lens and maybe fund it by selling your longest Leica lens (which is now effectively longer than you're used to using so maybe no longer quite so suited to your needs?)
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Old 11-29-2016   #29
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Since I have no nostalgia about cameras, I would not hesitate to sell anything to get something else that was better for my work. I have sold most of my Leica stuff for that reason.
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Old 11-29-2016   #30
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I've regretted selling every Leica lens I've ever sold. (Luckily there have not been too many.)
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Old 11-30-2016   #31
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Gentlemen! Well, I heard enough to make a good, as I think, decision. Will keep my Leica stuff and save some money for cheap body with lens like XE-1 or even X-Pro1. Added M-mount adaptor and figures out how it would working for me.

Thank you for your opinions!
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Old 11-30-2016   #32
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GR, great choice.

Please, please, please keep us in the loop on your journey. I'm very interested in how legacy glass works (e.g. focusing, brightness of view) works on mirrorless bodies.

Thanks.

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Old 11-30-2016   #33
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Skip the digital camera and get a Pacific Image XA.

Your Leica is now a 33mp camera that doesn't require batteries.

The XA is not perfect, but IMO it's the best desktop 35mm scanner available new. It scans full rolls, has autofocus, works well with Vuescan, and produces marvelous files that are on par with the Coolscan V I used to own.

Digital images don't last. You'll shoot a lot more but might not find that you have more keepers. Film is beautiful, archival (digital images are not archival at all no matter what anyone tells you), and the limits that film imposes generally are those that go to improve one's technique.
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Old 12-01-2016   #34
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I've owned a lot of Leicas in my time and have sold them all. The only one I regret selling is the IIIf and that is because I mostly gave it (and several awesome LTM lenses) away because it was all only sitting on a shelf unused.

If I had kept those lenses they'd be PERFECT on my Fuji bodies now!

I have both X-E bodies and while both have excellent image quality, the X-E2 is far more responsive to my way of shooting. If Fuji makes an X-E3 with a flip LCD, I'll sell the Fujis I have now, get three of the new X-E3 bodies and it will be a very long time before I buy another body.

I don't know how easy it is to purchase, shoot, process film in Russia, but here it is annoyingly slow and costly. For me and my needs, film is dead. I'D sell your film body and pick up an X-E2 (or even an X-E1 if you aren't shooting action) and maybe a Fuji lens or two. If you can't swing the lenses right now, use the ones you have with an affordable M>XF adapter until you can.
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Old 12-01-2016   #35
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Don't discount your X-20 either! It is capable of 'leaf shutter style' flash synch for daylight portraiture and at the lower ISOs produces really nice images!
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Old 12-01-2016   #36
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I don't know how easy it is to purchase, shoot, process film in Russia, but here it is annoyingly slow and costly. For me and my needs, film is dead.
Hmm. You are in the USA. It's about a week -10 day turnaround at most mail in labs. Decent dev/scan can be about $10-$12 a roll.

It's a screaming deal seeing you get a fresh new sensor for every shot you take.

I guess it depends if you need the instant gratification. Or are a pro that needs to deliver results right now.
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Old 12-02-2016   #37
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Decent dev/scan can be about $10-$12 a roll.
But the scans are complete crap...
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Screams of fear and loathing
Old 12-02-2016   #38
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Screams of fear and loathing

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...

It's a screaming deal seeing you get a fresh new sensor for every shot you take.
People enjoy using film cameras. People prefer the aesthetics of film photographs. Obviously film is a viable option.

But the new "sensor for every shot" at 33 cents per frame or less is an incomplete description. Besides lab development and scanning costs. The film isn't free. The total cost per month can be high.

There's something to be said for being more purposeful when we press the shutter. It is too easy to make a lot photos with digital media. At the same time there's nothing whatsoever (except self-discipline) stopping anyone from using a digital camera exactly as they would use a film camera. So how many rolls a month would an serious amateur photographer shoot?

And I agree with JS... at $10-$12 per roll the scans are proofs at best. The good news is most of the time there's only 2-3 frames per roll worth re-scanning properly. So post-production workload rarely involves 36 careful scans and post-production renderings per roll. You still have to own an above average computer system and the same software you would use with a 100% digital workflow. These are not free either.

A pure analog workflow requires no involvement with the digital world. Wet chemistry equipment is extremely inexpensive too. Here the cost per frame is very low... even for color work.
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Old 12-02-2016   #39
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But the scans are complete crap...

nope. thefindlab.com does excellent work.
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Old 12-02-2016   #40
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
nope. thefindlab.com does excellent work.
Maybe, but they are still small scans done by a bulk scanning machine. Maybe we just expect something differently. After working in real color darkrooms for many years, I expect more than what I'm seeing from supposedly pro labs everywhere. I haven't tried the aforementioned lab, but I do find it hard to believe they are that much better when they offer "premium scans" for a lot more cash.
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