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CSC : Digital Compact System Cameras - This new category of digital Compact System Cameras with interchangeable lenses was mislabeled for a time as "Mirrorless Cameras" by those forgetting about "Mirrorless" Rangefinder cameras.  Such confusion is easily understandable, since interchangeable rangefinder cameras were only recently introduced in 1932.  hmm.    CSC or Compact System Camera is probably the best category description to date, although I am fond of the old RFF desigation of  CEVIL  indicating Compact Electronic Viewfidner Interchangeable Lens.   This forum is here at RFF because via adapters these cameras offer an inexpensive way to use rangefinder lenses on digital cameras -- in addition of just about every 35mm SLR lens you can think of.  All  offer the photo enthusiast an incredible array of adopted lenses which was not possible before these new digital formats.   This group continues to grow in popularity and new camera models! 

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Nikon Mirrorless - What would you like to see?
Old 10-06-2016   #1
CameraQuest
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Nikon Mirrorless - What would you like to see?

One of the sad surprises of Photokina 2016 was no top end Nikon mirrorless to compete with the FujiX and Sony A7 series.

What would you like to see in a Nikon Mirrorless ?

I would like to see

1) The sensor from the Nikon 810 - or the 810's successor

2) complete flash system compatibility with Nikon DSLRs

3) state of the art EVF - better than the Leica SL

4) large high res tilting LCD panel

5) new large mouth lens mount allowing adapters from virtually all DSLRs and 2 1/4 cameras

6) adapter allowing FULL compatibility with ALL Nikon F lens variations - OK, so it would be an expensive adapter, but WELL worth it!

7) Gazillion axis stabilization built into the camera body

Best,

Stephen
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Old 10-06-2016   #2
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Anything with a sensor equal to or larger than APS-C (being conservative here), with a short flange distance and a NEW range of lenses.

Otherwise it'll be too easy for them to just churn out a halfhearted Nikon version of the Pentax K-01.
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Old 10-06-2016   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archlich View Post
Anything with a sensor equal to or larger than APS-C (being conservative here), with a short flange distance and a NEW range of lenses.
Agreed... I wouldn't want to use huge G series lenses on this.
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Old 10-06-2016   #4
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I'd like to see them fix the Nikon 1 system.

- Nikon 1 V4 with higher ISO capabilities
- Nikon 1 series prime lenses, fix the issues with the rear group failures (aperture locking up fully closed).
- Introduce a few more bright primes (13mm f1.4, 39mm f2.0, a new 10mm f1.8) And again, get the reliability up there with Nikon's regular lens line.

I've found the Nikon 1 system to be fantastic, when it's working. Super fast autofocus, a couple/three beautiful primes, 10mm, 18.5mm, 32mm. If they could fix the reliability problems, and get better high ISO out of the sensor, it would be a really great system.

Best,
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Old 10-06-2016   #5
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Agreed with your suggestions. I think the market is smart/ matured enough for Nikon to access what and why is selling with their finger print on it differentiating themselves.
I simply want a FF version of Fuji XPro 2 with high res touch tilt screen with your suggestions and NO video...
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Old 10-06-2016   #6
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I don't think we'll see a "new mirrorless system" from Nikon. They will probably offer mirrorless F (or G) mount cameras - and as such, they will fill niches in the current SLR lineup, like video or high image rates. Sixty years of F mount compatibility is one of the big features of Nikon, and they come too late to throw that over board - and while the underdog Sony needed the leverage of becoming a "adapted lens" camera maker to enter the market with a sytem with barely a native lens, this is hardly something Nikon can be after.
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Old 10-06-2016   #7
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Kinda liked what I saw on the other thread about a digital SP :P
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Old 10-06-2016   #8
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I'd like to see what they could do along the lines of the Fuji X-system. (Including the "rangefinder" style bodies.)
Like to see the sensor placed deep into the body to allow for smaller adapters (Fuji's are too far forward.)
With a nice F-mount adapter in the accessories lineup.
Huge wonderful EVF.
Go easy on the camera logo, and a 2" strap that does not say "Nikon" all over it.
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Old 10-06-2016   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmyjoe View Post
I'd like to see them fix the Nikon 1 system.

- Nikon 1 V4 with higher ISO capabilities
- Nikon 1 series prime lenses, fix the issues with the rear group failures (aperture locking up fully closed).
- Introduce a few more bright primes (13mm f1.4, 39mm f2.0, a new 10mm f1.8) And again, get the reliability up there with Nikon's regular lens line.

I've found the Nikon 1 system to be fantastic, when it's working. Super fast autofocus, a couple/three beautiful primes, 10mm, 18.5mm, 32mm. If they could fix the reliability problems, and get better high ISO out of the sensor, it would be a really great system.

Best,
-Tim
It is popular to scoff at the Nikon 1 system, but you are right. Used with the three lenses you mentioned, it is a sweet system (and the 6.7-13 zoom is high quality as well); sometimes it is better than my "better" systems. Shame they seem to have given up on it.

Other than that, Stephen seems to have designed the camera I would pre-order today, given the chance. But, given the bizarre Nikon product announcements at Photokina, I am not encouraged.
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Old 10-06-2016   #10
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In addition to Stephen's list:

- AF engine from the D500
- zero issues (e.g., smearing) with adapted WA lenses.
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Old 10-06-2016   #11
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if Nikon makes F-mount mirrorless, they have to make the body unnecessary big.

Nikon should try find solution that permits mounting their new SLR lenses, and allows using them as if they were on SLR. but permits also new small mirrorless lenses, so new customers without large collection of Nikkor glass would be interested. some kind of smart adapter that could be disconnected when SLR glass is not used.
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Old 10-08-2016   #12
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I have a large selection of Nikon lenses and I have been shooting Nikon since the 1960s.

However, a Nikon mirrorless is of no use to me now because I am now committed to a Fuji X mirrorless system.
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Old 10-08-2016   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
One of the sad surprises of Photokina 2016 was no top end Nikon mirrorless to compete with the FujiX and Sony A7 series.

...

Best,

Stephen
They're too late, I traded my Nikon DSLR kit in for a Fuji kit just a week ago.

Been a Nikon shooter for almost two decades and it feels awkward not having their stuff around but my burn-out prevents me from hauling DSLR gear and I'm just too tired to shoot it.

It freed up some dire-needed cash and I get to carry a lightweight kit if I ever get back to working.
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Old 10-08-2016   #14
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I'd like to see two systems:

1. FF mirrorless with full F mount compatibility and meeting Stephen's other criteria. Not crippled in features or firmware. The lower manufacturing costs (by eliminating pentaprism and reflex mirror) will help maintain profitability.

2. A compact mirrorless system that can compete with Fuji and Sony. There are two factors I think Nikon needs to consider to make this a success:
- video. This is the growing market as far as I can see. It needs to be state-of-the-art. If Nikon doesn't make this space their own, they will cede the market to Sony.
- a well-rounded DX (APS-C) lens selection, including primes. Fuji got this right. I'm quite shocked that Nikon, with all its heritage, still hasn't got a good range of DX primes.

The Nikon 1 system had much promise but was killed by over-pricing and poor lens selection, and then by making the premium bodies the same size as Sony NEX.

As Thom has mentioned, Nikon's engineers are second to none. They have been shortchanged by management.
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Old 10-08-2016   #15
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I've never cared about 'full-frame' digital, and Pentax and Fuji have pretty much made that moot anyway with their medium-format offerings at a price I might just be able to justify; and as far as physical user interfaces go any new mirrorless Nikon system would have to be an X-T2 or X-Pro 2 clone to be worth my attention.

If they develop their AW1 into a modern-day Nikonos, I'll be interested. Otherwise... meh.
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Old 10-08-2016   #16
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I think they should continue developing the current Nikon 1 system, especially as sensor technology keeps advancing. IMO they need to refine the current two lines - the J bodies for snap shooters and the V line for advanced amateurs.

The Js seem fine as is, but the Vs need a better UI with more control of camera features including fully functional front and back control wheels. Give them the same general control set as a Nikon DSLR and a built-in EVF.
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Old 10-08-2016   #17
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I would like to see an OVF/EVF system with a M mount. Even a S-mount would be good... especially if Nikon partnered with Cosina to quickly bring MF lenses to market. Nikon AF lenses could follow.

When it comes to mirrorless Nikon is stuck in the mud for two reasons:
  • The F-mount has physical limitations
  • Nikon is adverse to cannibalizing existing product lines

These issues are how come the Nikon 1 Series was born.

Canon's recently announced mirrorless body was just blown out of the water by SONY's new a6500 (APS-C). This can't be encouraging to Nikon's internal proponents (if there are any) for a more competitive (i.e. more sensor area) mirrorless product line.
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Old 10-08-2016   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnb View Post
As Thom has mentioned, Nikon's engineers are second to none. They have been shortchanged by management.
Exactly!








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Old 10-08-2016   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
I would like to see

1) The sensor from the Nikon 810 - or the 810's successor

2) complete flash system compatibility with Nikon DSLRs

3) state of the art EVF - better than the Leica SL

4) large high res tilting LCD panel

5) new large mouth lens mount allowing adapters from virtually all DSLRs and 2 1/4 cameras

6) adapter allowing FULL compatibility with ALL Nikon F lens variations - OK, so it would be an expensive adapter, but WELL worth it!

7) Gazillion axis stabilization built into the camera body

8) Price point below $2500

9) An adapter for Nikkor RF lenses
I added number (8) and (9) otherwise you listed as I would have.
Software correction in camera for legacy lenses would be nice if needed.
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Old 10-08-2016   #20
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A FF mirrorless the size of an FM2, with the same 'manual' control dials that the Fuji XT1/2 or the Nikon Df
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Old 10-08-2016   #21
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Full frame mirrorless that concentrates on decent sized bodies (x-pro/leica M/fm2n size) with small, fast, metal build lenses, manual controls (aperture ring and shutter speed dial). Basically a digital SP/FM. Use a high quality EVF. Use a deeper body/longer flange/tuned micro lenses on the sensor than the Sony A7's so the lenses don't have to be so enormous compared to the body. Design by giugiaro, no more plastic blob ergonomics. Bodies and lenses made in japan. Go back to NIKON quality from earlier decades.

Basically cannibalise your DSLRs nikon. It's only a matter of time before you will have to anyway. The days of the DSLR have passed.
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Old 10-08-2016   #22
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Whatever they come up with, I'd like to see fewer buttons, and more dials.

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Old 10-10-2016   #23
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Small, simple and...nice!
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Old 10-10-2016   #24
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I would like to see a Nikon full frame mirrorless camera with an M lens mount, that has simple controls and looks like a Nikon SP on the exterior.
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Old 10-10-2016   #25
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Ditto what Tim said. And still waiting to see the DL series of compact 1-inch sensor cameras.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmyjoe View Post
I'd like to see them fix the Nikon 1 system.

- Nikon 1 V4 with higher ISO capabilities
- Nikon 1 series prime lenses, fix the issues with the rear group failures (aperture locking up fully closed).
- Introduce a few more bright primes (13mm f1.4, 39mm f2.0, a new 10mm f1.8) And again, get the reliability up there with Nikon's regular lens line.

I've found the Nikon 1 system to be fantastic, when it's working. Super fast autofocus, a couple/three beautiful primes, 10mm, 18.5mm, 32mm. If they could fix the reliability problems, and get better high ISO out of the sensor, it would be a really great system.

Best,
-Tim
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Finding the right niche
Old 10-10-2016   #26
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Finding the right niche

If Nikon goes the route of building a mirrorless system based on the F-mount, there's no getting around the flange distance issue and thus these cameras are still going to be fairly large. Nikon already has plenty of SLR bodies to satisfy customer base willing to carry around these larger systems.

As others have suggested, why not a mirrorless system based on a short flange distance? I'd be concerned that if Nikon goes that route and compliments it with a new line of Nikkor lenses, we'll be waiting years before we see anything more than a couple of zoom lenses and a prime or two. So how about Nikon building a mirrorless system based on the M-mount? Nikon could pay Cosina to build the new line of Nikkor M-mount lenses, but in the meantime we'd have all the existing M-mount lenses to choose from.
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Old 10-10-2016   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xayraa33 View Post
I would like to see a Nikon full frame mirrorless camera with an M lens mount, that has simple controls and looks like a Nikon SP on the exterior.
Maybe they could modify the M mount to provide electronic linkage to their own range of M mount lenses while at the same time providing compatibility to existing M mount optics, assuming of course that this is technically possible.
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Old 10-10-2016   #28
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Quote:
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Maybe they could modify the M mount to provide electronic linkage to their own range of M mount lenses while at the same time providing compatibility to existing M mount optics, assuming of course that this is technically possible.
Anything is possible, but I highly doubt that Nikon would ever use some other manufacture's lens mount, ... oh wait, they did use the Zeiss Contax RF lens mount at one time didn't they?
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Old 10-10-2016   #29
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To heck with the M mount.... How about a LTM system? Or M42? C/Y? Pentax K?
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Old 10-10-2016   #30
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There are plenty enough nice mirrorless systems around so we don't need another one. What Nikon must make is a solid FF 24MP DSLR the size of the FM2 with the fewest buttons, a real 100% viewfinder comparable to the F801s one and real interchangeable focusing screens so that MF is really possible. Other than that, Nikon has nothing new to offer. Especially if it's to copy Sony or Fuji now.
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Old 10-10-2016   #31
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Take the Df, remove the prism and add an EVF in the top corner and they'd be 90% of the way there.
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Old 10-10-2016   #32
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Nikon has a dedicated following among just about every part of photography, leverage it. My guidance to Nikon is to focus on what you have and make it better, find niches you can leverage and OWN one or two.

First, focus on the 1 Series, it should be the fastest hit. As mentioned before you need some GREAT prime lenses. Not a lot but they have to be world class. Correcting distortion on wide primes in software is not what I want to spend my money on. Start with 10/2.8, 19/1.4, 32/1.8. I’d also like to see an F adapter that used AI (and/or AIs) and allowed for wide open viewing/focusing. If you use an electromagnet to open the aperture then turning off the power should close down quick enough. From there I’d focus on a group of fast wide primes that focus close, low to no distortion and not too big. Keep doing zooms, but the niche you can build is in primes that are world class. Also make sure you have a hot shoe for flash and folks who want to use brightline finders.

Yes, a FF Mirrorless is great but you need to excite the market with something to build volume without investing big time.

After that start with the DF body and get rid of the buttons. Keep the shutter speed dial and do the rest on touch screen. Yes they are bigger than the Fuji’s but Nikon has so much great glass out there to leverage in F mount I think it would sell well. Make sure you can use the legacy glass. Frankly I’d make a EVF that clipped on the top that looks like a FTn prism.

Long term they should build an EVF that is a hybrid, optical for 1:1 viewing and projects frame lines in dimmable red or green. Something like a red dot scope does for pistols and carbines but framelines, not a dot. That would work for up to 50, remember how much fun the S2 was?

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Old 10-10-2016   #33
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I can't see Nikon (or Canon) releasing a full-frame replacement for their full-frame DSLR's just yet. (This market segment is small, and since Canikon already owns it, I doubt Nikon feels much competitive pressure in this area.)

However, that being said, there is no doubt that Fuji/Olympus/Sony are biting at the heels of Nikon's APS market share, and this is where they need to respond.

That is, the release of an exiting and compelling APS mirrorless camera with a basic complement (at introduction) of reasonable size (F2 or slower) lenses. An "E" adapter will provide full compatibility with existing electronic aperture Nikkors. (It is unrealistic to expect full compatibility with "G" and older lenses.)

Naturally, this camera will need to be spec competitive with the latest generation of uber-cameras from Fuji/Olympus/Sony.

Nikon has a huge brand recognition advantage over the "little-guys", they need to reward this brand loyalty, and soon.
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Old 10-10-2016   #34
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Ahh, Nikon Mirrorless, the perpetual question!

The next Nikon Mirrorless camera will be the D3x00 series. They will just remove the mirror and put an EVF in instead of the pentamirror. It will be a cost cutting exercise. The D5x00 will follow.

Without the mirror in the way, lenses can be mage that go a long way inside the body, thus making the overall package smaller and keeping the F mount. Nikon have a lot of brand loyalty, but they got it by keeping the same lens mount forever. They're not going to change that - even when they should. They're not going to cannibalize their own products - even though they should.

With all this talk of when Nikon is going to introduce a "pro" FF mirrorless body, why would they? They already have a great range of "pro" FF bodies that are fast and capable.
Why must it be mirrorless? What do you gain?

Do you just want it to be smaller? You're limited by the lens and the battery in the end - the mirror box is pretty small. You end up with a tiny A7 style body with monstrous lenses attached and 1/3 of the battery life.

Do you want video? Nikon has never put any real effort into that, and I doubt that'll change.

IMHO, they need to get the DL's out, and then work on expanding that range so it replaces the CX mount. A 28 or 35 eq fixed lens DL would be neat.
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Old 10-10-2016   #35
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Anybody remember the Nikon Pronea line of cameras? A killer little system of cameras and lenses that should have kept APS film going for a while longer, but too many things were against it, not the least of which was the encroaching dawn of digital photography.

Nikon designed a whole new batch of lenses for the Pronea's, with their own design that made it impossible to use them on any other Nikon camera, though you could use AF-D series lenses on the Pronea.

The first model Pronea was a tour de force as far as I'm concerned, with plenty of controls utilizing a large master LCD panel on the back of the camera. But the lenses seemed cheap, and in most respects they were, even using molded plastic elements in some models. That was all to fit a price point, and I feel Nikon is not comfortable enough right now to relive what happened when they finally jumped into the lake with all the other fishes.

They are late to the show again, and they are having trouble coming to grips with designing a system that would make you forget about Fuji or Sony. And making it work with the F mount.

PF
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Old 10-11-2016   #36
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Originally Posted by BillBingham2 View Post
...

First, focus on the 1 Series, it should be the fastest hit. As mentioned before you need some GREAT prime lenses. Not a lot but they have to be world class. Correcting distortion on wide primes in software is not what I want to spend my money on. Start with 10/2.8, 19/1.4, 32/1.8. ...
From there I’d focus on a group of fast wide primes that focus close, low to no distortion and not too big. ...

...
The money spent to for a TV/movie star to endorse the 1 Series is evidence what market demographic Nikon was after with the 1 Series. The problem is Nikon does has decided serious photographers (define serious however you wish) must use 24 X 36 mm media formats. While I agree with your advice, Nikon would have to completely reverse their marketing philosophy to rejuvenate the 1 Series. That ship has sailed.

Is Nikon too proud to emulate Fujifilm?

Is Nikon brave/wise/flexible enough to offer a 24 X 36 mm mirrorless system?

Right now the answers seem to be 'yes' and 'no'.

Here is Nikon's five year stock chart. Their stock price has halved since highs seen in 2012. During the same period the NIKKEI 225 index doubled.
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Old 10-11-2016   #37
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if it's just to fix the 1 series:

rangefinder-style body with built-in EVF and IBIS. controls like fuji.
comprehensive set of ultrafast prime lenses (f/1 and 1.4) and pro zooms (f/2).
fewer megapixels, better ISO and dynamic range.

if it's to start a whole new system:

full frame, rangefinder-style body with built-in EVF and IBIS.
leaf shutter lenses, 1/1600.
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Old 10-11-2016   #38
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.......While I agree with your advice, Nikon would have to completely reverse their marketing philosophy to rejuvenate the 1 Series. That ship has sailed.

....
That's what they said about the rangefinder market a bit over 15 years ago......

B2 (;->
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Old 10-11-2016   #39
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With all this talk of when Nikon is going to introduce a "pro" FF mirrorless body, why would they? They already have a great range of "pro" FF bodies that are fast and capable. Why must it be mirrorless? What do you gain?
Apart from size you gain lighter weight, quiet vibrationless shooting (no mirror clack) and the ability to see near as dammit what the end result will be. In other words, you can easily see if you're over/under exposing, white balance etc. Once you have tried mirrorless it's hard to go back.
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Old 10-11-2016   #40
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Well, if the DL cameras could be actually released - that might be very positive step to cover the bottom end of the market. Then, in the bottom middle, mirrorless DX (replaces D3XXX), in the upper middle mirrorless FX (replaces DF, and D750). Top DSLRs (DX and FX) all stay. Maybe the D5XXX could hang on for a bit.

Copying Fuji control points would be just fine with me, although I suspect Nikon's pride won't allow that. Give us full adapters for all legacy Nikon glass. (The FT-1 worked great on the N1 until they got all nannyish about using big lenses on the little camera.) Although the N1 system had it's flaws (and appears to have failed), I bet Nikon learned a bunch about mirrorless.

Wouldn't it be fun to use Nikon Rangefinder glass on a Nikon mirrorless body? And then switch right over to modern, fast, AF lenses?
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