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X Pro , a step too far ?
Old 08-14-2016   #1
dee
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X Pro , a step too far ?

The M8 was instinctual , with few settings to concern me ... Maybe there is too much choice for an admitted ASDee snap shooter .
I have reverted to auto exposure (checking speeds v aperture ) with the easy compensation dial .
Also adopting the rear screen to avoid cousins myself over lost frame lines on OVF and if the EVF is set
It wil come I know that I am slow .
Dee
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Old 08-15-2016   #2
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I've found there's always a learning curve with new digital cameras - you'll adapt.
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Old 08-15-2016   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ford View Post
I've found there's always a learning curve with new digital cameras - you'll adapt.
Dear Ken,

But why should it be so long and so steep? Pick up a Leica M9 or a Nikon Df and all the major controls are in much the same place as they are in film cameras. Pick up a digibox and they're all over the place, depending on which camera you buy.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-15-2016   #4
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Just find the menu and camera settings that work for you and forge ahead. Loss of OVF frames lines is not capricious.

For non-OVF cameras the LCD and EVF display settings and look can be different if different display menu options are set for each display mode. The OVF does add a third set of independent menu display options. It took me a while to figure out how to set the parameters for each display to meet my needs. Once these parameters are set switching between the EVF/OVF is fast and convenient.
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Old 08-15-2016   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
Dear Ken,

But why should it be so long and so steep? Pick up a Leica M9 or a Nikon Df and all the major controls are in much the same place as they are in film cameras. Pick up a digibox and they're all over the place, depending on which camera you buy.

Cheers,

R.
Good point.

It's long and steep because camera manufacturers are way behind when it comes to implementing a user friendly, intuitive graphics interface. The GUI is stuck at the stage that caused 90% of all the VCRs to blink red date displays for most of their service lives.

In Fujifilm's case they started from scratch. The most expedient way to get in the market was to use menu-based technologies that were obsolete at least a decade ago. The downside was locking future cameras into the same obsolete firmware based system.
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Old 08-15-2016   #6
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Format the memory card, pick an ISO, and then a shutter speed and aperture. I don't see how it's that hard.
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Old 08-15-2016   #7
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You can set up and use the XP1 exactly the same way as you would an M8, albeit with autofocus. The XP1 has to be one of the easiest cameras to adapt to, 90% of the controls are physical and located in traditional locations.

There's a lot of information online, just google it.
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Old 08-15-2016   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dee View Post
The M8 was instinctual , with few settings to concern me ... Maybe there is too much choice for an admitted ASDee snap shooter .
I have reverted to auto exposure (checking speeds v aperture ) with the easy compensation dial .
Also adopting the rear screen to avoid cousins myself over lost frame lines on OVF and if the EVF is set
It wil come I know that I am slow .
Dee
Seems a shame to use the rear LCD instead of the OVF. What problem did you have with lost frame lines?

Did you press the "Display" button on the rear of the camera while in OVF mode?

Shawn
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Old 08-15-2016   #9
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Camera designs these days try to be all things to all people to keep sales volume up and costs down. So they are overloaded with selectable variables.
You need to spend some time on that learning curve and decide for yourself what controls you personally need to deal with shot-to-shot. That will boil the "problem" down to almost nothing at all. My guess is you will need to check/confirm only 3 or 4 variables (in the Q menu) before each set.
Piece of cake.

PS .... "slow" is not a bad thing.
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Old 08-15-2016   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
Dear Ken,

But why should it be so long and so steep? Pick up a Leica M9 or a Nikon Df and all the major controls are in much the same place as they are in film cameras. Pick up a digibox and they're all over the place, depending on which camera you buy.

Cheers,

R.
The Leica M9, yes, the DF was not so easy. Me thinks it is a D610 with dials (except for that wonderful sensor). now what's that new Leica without an LCD, etc.?
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Old 08-15-2016   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
Dear Ken,

But why should it be so long and so steep? Pick up a Leica M9 or a Nikon Df and all the major controls are in much the same place as they are in film cameras. Pick up a digibox and they're all over the place, depending on which camera you buy.

Cheers,

R.
Roger, I've found my XP1 to be very instinctive - almost as basic as my M-P. Shutter speed dial, aperture ring, shutter button - art was spewing from mine within five minutes of charging the battery. Bad art, true - but I was functional.
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Old 08-15-2016   #12
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Thanks all
For the most part ,I seem to be Ok ,then somthing throws me .
I guess it's because I got the camera a week before my wife's family holiday in Malaysia , so they all expect the instant ability of the typical rear screen based zoom point and shoot.
I do love the camera having dedicated fm to film modes colour to mono and , during learning , using auto with exposure compensation.
Got caught out with wide family pic with OVF instead of EVF oops missed those on the end , this threw me as it was just about the most crucial photo also taken by someone from family with simpler camera . Just got foci X those OVF frame lines as the reason I prefer the XPro is being able to see around the frame as with the M8 !
Struggling with new I phone to post here AND most using phones and negating cameras altogether !
Dee
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Old 08-15-2016   #13
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Maybe I am a bit stuffed cos the 27mm does not have an aperture ring, so is otherwise from the M8.
I also went into the M8 knowing all the parameters whereas the Fuji was a bargain basement once only 168 body plus 27mm via eBay , not the easiest entry into a professional camera !!
dee
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Old 08-15-2016   #14
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What's to learn? It has a shutter button, aperture and speed controls, ISO setting, what else do you need?
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Old 08-15-2016   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dee View Post
Thanks all
For the most part ,I seem to be Ok ,then somthing throws me .
I guess it's because I got the camera a week before my wife's family holiday in Malaysia , so they all expect the instant ability of the typical rear screen based zoom point and shoot.
I do love the camera having dedicated fm to film modes colour to mono and , during learning , using auto with exposure compensation.
Got caught out with wide family pic with OVF instead of EVF oops missed those on the end , this threw me as it was just about the most crucial photo also taken by someone from family with simpler camera . Just got foci X those OVF frame lines as the reason I prefer the XPro is being able to see around the frame as with the M8 !
Struggling with new I phone to post here AND most using phones and negating cameras altogether !
Dee
Yeh, I got my X100 just before a big Christmas family thing few years back. Not smart at all.
I looked like the clown that day, having hit the "drive>3fps" button not even knowing there was such a thing and not understanding what the camera was trying to do.
Takes time.
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Old 08-15-2016   #16
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Are you seriously saying that the M9 and DF are similar? In what way? If anything, I'd say the DF is exactly like the 'digi box' you refer to while the XP1 is much closer to the M9.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
Pick up a Leica M9 or a Nikon Df and all the major controls are in much the same place as they are in film cameras.
Dee - Set the aperture on lens, set shutter speed on dial, set ISO in-camera (you can always assign the Fn button on the top plate for an ISO shortcut) on the XP1 and you're good to go. Exact same process as on a digital M. With the XP1 you have the benefit of framing via the OVF and frame lines or the EVF with the flip of the front switch. Or, if you prefer the rear LCD with the press of a single button on the rear of the camera. Not sure how anyone coming from a film camera would have any difficulty with a Fuji. Once you set it up the way you like it, you really never even need to dive back into the menus.
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Old 08-15-2016   #17
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Are you seriously saying that the M9 and DF are similar? In what way? If anything, I'd say the DF is exactly like the 'digi box' you refer to while the XP1 is much closer to the M9.
Yeah, I agree with Roger. Not many cameras with dedicated shutter speed dials and optical VFs in which the user can ignore the menu completely (add the X-Pro and X100 series as the others). In this way, they are similar.
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Old 08-15-2016   #18
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It's over-whelming ... at first. Just give yourself time to become used to it.
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Old 08-15-2016   #19
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Most digital camera makers want to be all things to all people so they put dozens of features in their cameras that many people never need or want.

First digital camera I owned scared the hell out of me. I had been a photographer for 35 years but I was afraid to touch that camera for fear I would set it up in some unknown mode and never be able to figure out what I had done. It felt like a camera, looked like a camera and yet I viewed it as an F16 control panel and if I touched the wrong button I would launch a missile. But I worked through it eventually and even felt comfortable with it. Then I bought an early Olympus micro 4/3 with those crazy Olympus menus. Another period of frustration and bewilderment. But I figured it out and found every subsequent Olympus was pretty much the same layout.

My first Fujifilm camera was also the XP1. And it was also frustrating because it wasn't like the digital Canons, Olympuses and Panasonics I had used previously. But by this time I wasn't afraid to make mistakes with the camera while learning. So, dee, don't despair. We humans are marvelous creatures with an uncanny ability to adapt to various conditions. Make mistakes, press the wrong buttons, flip the wrong switches and be frustrated. You'll get there. The X-Pro1 is a sweet camera once mastered. The instruction book is useful. There are other books available as well. And, of course, there's always the Internet for assistance.
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Old 08-15-2016   #20
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I was used for years with a Konica Hexar RF as my main camera (somewhat an M7 clone, if you don't know it). Then I bought a Fuji X100 and - reading and testing - I set the controls to be used as similar to my Hexar RF as it was possible and forgot the menu system completely.
Same for the X-Pro1 I got a year later. Now I can pick one of the cameras and - using the OVF - the only different handling is using mostly AF versus RF with M lenses. Very instinctive meanwhile!
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Old 08-15-2016   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdwsta4 View Post
Are you seriously saying that the M9 and DF are similar? In what way? If anything, I'd say the DF is exactly like the 'digi box' you refer to while the XP1 is much closer to the M9.



Dee - Set the aperture on lens, set shutter speed on dial, set ISO in-camera (you can always assign the Fn button on the top plate for an ISO shortcut) on the XP1 and you're good to go. Exact same process as on a digital M. With the XP1 you have the benefit of framing via the OVF and frame lines or the EVF with the flip of the front switch. Or, if you prefer the rear LCD with the press of a single button on the rear of the camera. Not sure how anyone coming from a film camera would have any difficulty with a Fuji. Once you set it up the way you like it, you really never even need to dive back into the menus.
I agree with Matt on this, especially with the XP1. With all digital cameras, its pretty easy to get lost in the menus... if you choose to go there. But with the XPro1, you can live without nearly all the menu items. Pick a film simulation you like and from then on all necessary adjustments are just like film body. And the XP1 offers a HUGE benefit over a film body... adjustable ISO! With a film body, you're stuck with one ISO rating until you swap out the film. With XP1, assign ISO adjustment to one of the external function buttons and you'll never need to delve into the menus again. :-)
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Old 08-15-2016   #22
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FWIW I find the XP1 best in MF mode, and OVF with focus peaking

Move the focus box to where you need it in the frame

Press in the rear command dial, the OVF swaps to a magnified view of where ever you left the focus box, if necessary at this point move the camera to get what you need in the focus box

Press the AF-L button to engange a focus run, if focus misses, focus manually

Half press the shutter, view returns to the OVF

Shoot.

You just did what a M240 user needs to move their eye between 2 different view finders to do, whilst also adjusting for parallax and 100% confirmed focus

And the only thing you moved was your thumb (and shutter button finger)

No face detect, no wide auto tracking AF, no EVF lag, no problems putting the magnified focus box anywhere in the frame.

It doesn't get much easier or more accurate. Of course a newer digital camera can do that faster, but no AF is 100% reliable

Of course a Leica can do that without needing your thumb, but it can't move the focus point around the frame (not even the 240 with the EVF)

To speed the process up a bit, try to pre-visualise the shot ahead of time and move the focus box into the correct place as you raise the camera to your eye.

Don't fret about jpeg film simulations, and jpg settings... Just shoot raw (plus jpg) then later, usually when you're having a break and in a cafe or something, use the in camera raw convertor to try out whether you like Velvia, Astia etc and do you like it with shadows +1 or -2 etc etc

IMO the XP1 may not offer speed, but very few cameras have quite that much simplicity and functionality in the same package.

The Leicas gain some simplicity, but lose some accuracy, the other digital cameras gain some speed, but add complexity.
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Old 08-15-2016   #23
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There's a lot of information online, just google it.
Can you share your favorite links where you get information for the XPro1?

Thanks.

Ellen
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Old 08-15-2016   #24
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I With XP1, assign ISO adjustment to one of the external function buttons and you'll never need to delve into the menus again. :-)
That is very good information to know and I'll be assigning an external function button to ISO as soon as I finish this post. I had been going into the menu to change ISO and it was very frustrating, in addition to taking much longer than it should, on my last shoot. There were such varying light conditions on that shoot that it would have been a lot easier to just go to the function button to change ISO.
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Old 08-15-2016   #25
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That is very good information to know and I'll be assigning an external function button to ISO as soon as I finish this post. I had been going into the menu to change ISO and it was very frustrating, in addition to taking much longer than it should, on my last shoot. There were such varying light conditions on that shoot that it would have been a lot easier to just go to the function button to change ISO.
Don't fear Auto ISO either. You set minimum shutter speed and the max ISO you want and the camera will do the rest with in full Auto exposure mode.

If you are shooting shutter priority (Aperture set to A, you set shutter) the camera will adjust ISO as needed based on your set shutter speed.

In full manual mode the camera will set the ISO based on your combination of shutter speed and aperture selected. On the XP1 the downside of this setup is that the exposure compensation has no effect.

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Old 08-15-2016   #26
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Can you share your favorite links where you get information for the XPro1?
You have it backwards, Google is the website.

If you have a question (e.g., "how to change ISO on X pro 1", "how to set minimum shutter speed in aperture priority on x pro 1", "x pro 1 tips and tricks", etc.) type it in, you'll get thousands of answers instantly.
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Old 08-15-2016   #27
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Maybe I am a bit stuffed cos the 27mm does not have an aperture ring, so is otherwise from the M8.
I also went into the M8 knowing all the parameters whereas the Fuji was a bargain basement once only 168 body plus 27mm via eBay , not the easiest entry into a professional camera !!
dee
Google "how to change aperture on 27mm 2.8".

Compared to any other typical "professional" camera, the x pro 1 probably is the easiest entry. I don't meant to come across as rude, but seriously, read the manual, google the questions, there's no problem on any digital camera that doesn't take literally seconds to solve.
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Old 08-15-2016   #28
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I guess there is history due to slowness and others putting me down ,in family situation is exaggerated .Went. out early just trying out various settings as if with M8 . Dee termined to use manual , familar with A35 50mm.
Accepted that there will be duff shots , but loving the camera to persist with EVF at present .
Thanks to everyone , panicked over for now !!
dee
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Old 08-15-2016   #29
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Originally Posted by ornate_wrasse View Post
Can you share your favorite links where you get information for the XPro1?

Thanks.

Ellen
FujiX forum, tomen.de (English, in the Fuji archives). Dial the clock back to 2012 and start from there. Tons of info.
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Old 08-15-2016   #30
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You have it backwards, Google is the website.
Actually, I don't have it backwards at all. Silly you for thinking that.

I was asking for links you have used in the past, perhaps with a lot of information on the XPro1 that would be helpful to me. I have mastered the D700 and the M9 among other cameras (both digital and film), but the XPro1 is fairly new to me, thus my request for useful links.


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Originally Posted by nongfuspring View Post
If you have a question (e.g., "how to change ISO on X pro 1", "how to set minimum shutter speed in aperture priority on x pro 1", "x pro 1 tips and tricks", etc.) type it in, you'll get thousands of answers instantly.
I can see where asking specific questions, as you have indicated above, could be very useful, that is NOT what I was asking.
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Old 08-15-2016   #31
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Originally Posted by shawn View Post
Don't fear Auto ISO either. You set minimum shutter speed and the max ISO you want and the camera will do the rest with in full Auto exposure mode.
Years ago I went to a class on using a Nikon DSLR and the instructor said to the class "Don't ever use Auto ISO!!" I guess I internalized his warning and I've been hesitant to use it in the years since then.

But I really should get over my mental block against using Auto ISO because I can see how it can be very useful. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Old 08-15-2016   #32
dee
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I was also invited to a Leica Academy workshop for M8 in London .
Restricted to mono ,dull day but I did reasonably well. compared to the class .
The sole restriction on excellent photos is my lack of confidence ,certainly not equipment .
I do NOT need another camera , there is somthing about the Fuji system which is uniquely appealing and work persistence with my unreasoned bargain purchase .
I am not going to cash it in after a month or so .
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Old 08-15-2016   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ornate_wrasse View Post
Actually, I don't have it backwards at all. Silly you for thinking that.
No, you still do. Search engines are the index of the internet. Even if someone gives you a website with a lot of information (e.g. fuji x forum, RFF, etc.) they're typically so large that you're far better off accessing them via a search engine anyway. Virtually every relevant thread in these forums, blog post, or article is already search indexed for your convenience. GIYF.
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Old 08-16-2016   #34
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Thanks I shall check out Google but thanks for your patience all through were I at home , it would be Dee fervent lol .
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Old 08-16-2016   #35
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Those "digiboxes" are very easy to set up. I have zero problem using my Sony and Canon digital cameras. It is easy:
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Originally Posted by Darthfeeble View Post
What's to learn? It has a shutter button, aperture and speed controls, ISO setting, what else do you need?
Just walk through the menu and set things the way you like. If you're uncertain how to set it, just Google it. Easy.

Their might be a learning curve, but the first time you guys picked up a manual camera you were overwhelmed - try to load film into any manual camera without prior knowledge or a manual. Impossible.
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Old 08-16-2016   #36
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Originally Posted by ornate_wrasse View Post
Can you share your favorite links where you get information for the XPro1?

Thanks.

Ellen
Well, I did that once and my post was deleted. I guess the problem was those links were on another Forum. I was never informed how come my post disappeared. Just spend 15 minutes doing some searches.

This post is not a complaint or criticism. RFF costs money to run, so sending people to competing Forum is counterproductive.
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Old 08-16-2016   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ornate_wrasse View Post
Years ago I went to a class on using a Nikon DSLR and the instructor said to the class "Don't ever use Auto ISO!!" I guess I internalized his warning and I've been hesitant to use it in the years since then.

But I really should get over my mental block against using Auto ISO because I can see how it can be very useful. Thanks for pointing it out.
Auto-ISO is convenient. This is auto-ISO's single advantage. However anytime ISO is higher than it really needs to be IQ will decrease. Increasing ISO via auto-ISO decreases exposure when the shutter is open. Decreasing exposure decreases the signal. Yet the electronic noise remains constant. The dynamic range and shadow detail suffer as signal-to-noise ratio decreases.

So, the trade-off is convenience vs. the best IQ possible. Sometimes convenience and spontaneity is more important... sometimes it's not.
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Old 08-16-2016   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ornate_wrasse View Post
Actually, I don't have it backwards at all. Silly you for thinking that.

I was asking for links you have used in the past, perhaps with a lot of information on the XPro1 that would be helpful to me. I have mastered the D700 and the M9 among other cameras (both digital and film), but the XPro1 is fairly new to me, thus my request for useful links.




I can see where asking specific questions, as you have indicated above, could be very useful, that is NOT what I was asking.
Good X-Pro1 websites?

Well Dante Stella (member here) *ahem* mine, also any book/forum post/blog post by Rico Pfirstinger.

Personally I'd start with the stuff by Rico.

Ask questions here too, people will help you!
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Old 08-16-2016   #39
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How is it more overwhelming to use a manual camera vs a digital camera? Set aperture on the lens, shutter speed on the dial. DONE! Only potential hiccup might be ISO that, depending on the camera, you would need to dive into a menu. With 'digiboxes', let's take a look at the Canon 5Diii for example. Someone new to the camera or brand would have no idea how to change either of those settings without reading the manual or playing around with the camera. They're extremely easy to use when you know what dials do what, but they're not intuitive for a new user. This is coming from someone who shot with Canon cameras for over a decade.

Your response of 'if you're uncertain how to set it, just google it. easy' works both ways....

This conversation also isn't about film cameras, t's about Fuji cameras (and in some instances, Leica digital cameras).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Addy101 View Post
Those "digiboxes" are very easy to set up. I have zero problem using my Sony and Canon digital cameras. It is easy:
Just walk through the menu and set things the way you like. If you're uncertain how to set it, just Google it. Easy.

Their might be a learning curve, but the first time you guys picked up a manual camera you were overwhelmed - try to load film into any manual camera without prior knowledge or a manual. Impossible.
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Old 08-16-2016   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ornate_wrasse View Post
Years ago I went to a class on using a Nikon DSLR and the instructor said to the class "Don't ever use Auto ISO!!" I guess I internalized his warning and I've been hesitant to use it in the years since then.

But I really should get over my mental block against using Auto ISO because I can see how it can be very useful. Thanks for pointing it out.
Older cameras also had much worse DR (high ISO performance) compared to todays cameras. If you set up auto ISO well it isn't going to do anything you wouldn't really do yourself. Need to keep 1/30 of a second shutter speed... once you opened the lens up as much as you can you would then have to move to increasing ISO. Auto ISO will do the same thing, just much quicker than you would.

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