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Old 04-03-2013   #41
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Can this be 3D printed instead of injection-moulded? You could save a lot of cost , at the price of a couple of hundred grams perhaps. The helical could also be printed or printed-and-finished, but even with that part being injected, at least the moulds for the rest would be out of the cost equation. Alternatively, 3D-print the back, blow-mould the extension and injection-mould the helical?
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Old 04-03-2013   #42
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Can this be 3D printed instead of injection-moulded? You could save a lot of cost , at the price of a couple of hundred grams perhaps. The helical could also be printed or printed-and-finished, but even with that part being injected, at least the moulds for the rest would be out of the cost equation. Alternatively, 3D-print the back, blow-mould the extension and injection-mould the helical?
The prototypes were 3D printed. When looking at large scale production 3D printing just isn't effective from a time standpoint.
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Old 04-03-2013   #43
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Can this be 3D printed instead of injection-moulded? You could save a lot of cost , at the price of a couple of hundred grams perhaps. The helical could also be printed or printed-and-finished, but even with that part being injected, at least the moulds for the rest would be out of the cost equation. Alternatively, 3D-print the back, blow-mould the extension and injection-mould the helical?
I believe this is how the prototype was made. I'm sure Ben has weighed up the different manufacturing options.
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Old 04-03-2013   #44
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I believe this is how the prototype was made. I'm sure Ben has weighed up the different manufacturing options.
Yeah, we have considered it. 3D printing was our first thought, until we paid for our first prototype. The cost is about $350 per unit, and they require a lot of modification. Despite being dyed black, the material is actually white translucent, so the entire inside and some of the outside of the camera needs to be covered in two layers of gaffer's tape.

If this Kickstarter fails, we may offer 3D printed versions, but I don't think we could retail them for less than $500-600.
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Old 04-03-2013   #45
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I am planning on getting the one for the 90mm Angulon as soon as I can take the time to sign up. Will try to adapt a Grafmatic to it.,

Already use my homemade 5X7 P&S with the Kodak 135 Wide-field. A lot of fun.
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Old 04-03-2013   #46
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You don't need a darkroom to process 4x5! Check out The "Taco" Method.
Even better, the Unicolor printing drum method.
Less chemical than the taco method (not too significant until you do this often enough), but most importantly, the result is more even.
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Old 04-03-2013   #47
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Yeah, we have considered it. 3D printing was our first thought, until we paid for our first prototype. The cost is about $350 per unit, and they require a lot of modification. Despite being dyed black, the material is actually white translucent, so the entire inside and some of the outside of the camera needs to be covered in two layers of gaffer's tape.

If this Kickstarter fails, we may offer 3D printed versions, but I don't think we could retail them for less than $500-600.
Ben, first of all, I applaud you for this initiative.

Just an idea for making the translucent material light tight, have you considered an inside lining with anti-static fabrics? A short searching online brought up this http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale/...ic-fabric.html

Using a liner is probably cheaper than dyeing, if you make it a DIY kit version, some people would love it because you can customize the look of the camera.
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Old 04-03-2013   #48
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Another question for Ben. If this takes off would you consider making and selling just the helical, mountable on a lens board, as a separate unit. That would sure be handy for do it yourself custom camera makers who want to mount a variety of optics on home made large format cameras.
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Old 04-03-2013   #49
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Another question for Ben. If this takes off would you consider making and selling just the helical, mountable on a lens board, as a separate unit. That would sure be handy for do it yourself custom camera makers who want to mount a variety of optics on home made large format cameras.
As a tinkerer and camera maker, I am 100% with you in spirit. Unfortunately, making a lensboard with a helical would be nearly as expensive as making the Travelwide. The helical is really the expensive part.

If I could be convinced that 1000 people would buy the lensboard and helical, we would do it.

@shadowfox: That lining looks interesting, but I'm not sure it's easier or cheaper than taping. The dying doesn't add much lightproofing, but it gives it a nice black color, and is done by Shapeways for free anyway.
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Old 04-03-2013   #50
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Anyway, this camera is what it is: a tough, $99 hardbody scale focus camera that weighs basically nothing and lets you pack a 4x5 in addition to your normal camera setup. When I was designing it, the RFF community really was foremost in my mind. So I hope you guys like it and spread the word.

Bravo. This sounds like such a fun project and the camera seems to offer something new. I would never walk around town with a normal 4x5, but this thing would be sweet, either hand held or maybe on a monopod.

Good luck!
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Old 04-03-2013   #51
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I commend your entrepreneurial spirit, guys. I recently bought a 4x5 pinhole and don't like it much - cumbersome, bulky and all my shots are really out of focus. I would have bought this in a heartbeat if it was around. I'm not sure why people here are knocking your idea to make 4x5 as light and compact as possible -isn't that the same kind of philosophy rangefinders were found upon? It is impossible to make 4x5 as compact as 35mm, so why even expect that? It's not like 4x5 is going to come on rolls anytime soon and be used without holders. What sold me was your $99 price point and how quick it is to shoot with. Sure, get a speed-graphic, but by the time you unfold it, I already took 2 shots with this camera. I think it's awesome and will support it once my question gets answered (I asked on kickstarter). What is the details on the pinhole version? Do both come with a pinhole option and then you can just get the 90 or 65mm? I was a little confused by the description.
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Old 04-03-2013   #52
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...also is it really $40 for shipping to Canada?
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Old 04-03-2013   #53
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I have been looking at the Harman Titan for a while but will get this instead as I get the best of both worlds. I already asked a question about postage to Canada on the project site.
Kickstarter dont have many shipping options so $40 is all they do. They did say about including an extra for Canadian buyers. Would love to know what it is though.
Great project Ben!
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Old 04-03-2013   #54
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We haven't decided what it will be, but Canucks will definitely get a little something extra. We understand that $40 is a little excessive for Canada, but unfortunately Kickstarter segments the world into "US" and "not US."

Regarding pinhole, all of the Travelwide cameras will ship with a precision etched pinhole. If we just barely make our goal, it may have to be a loose pinhole plate that the user can tape to the camera. If we exceed our goal, we will do everything in our power to make a custom pinhole cap with an integrated lens cap. It would look like this:



For more info, check out our first update:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...a/posts/444574
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Old 04-04-2013   #55
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Ben....very cool project and I'll back it sometime today.

My only experience with 4x5 thusfar is with an old, beet up, semi-working Speed Graphic that has frustrated the heck out of me. I'm hoping this will be a bit easier to use

Potentially dumb question: can other lenses be mounted on the 90 version? Longer focal lengths?
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Old 04-04-2013   #56
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Thanks Ben for the information about the helical. It only makes sense that it would be the most complicated and expensive part to design and fabricate.

I love this give and take, with many RFF members coming up with ideas. Even if not economically possible within the scope of this project they furnish ideas for expansion of photography just for the fun of it.
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Old 04-04-2013   #57
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Ben....very cool project and I'll back it sometime today.

My only experience with 4x5 thusfar is with an old, beet up, semi-working Speed Graphic that has frustrated the heck out of me. I'm hoping this will be a bit easier to use

Potentially dumb question: can other lenses be mounted on the 90 version? Longer focal lengths?
Thanks Patrick! You can mount many different 90s on the camera (except probably the É/5.6), and possibly some other focal lengths. I believe there's an 80mm and a 100 or 110 or two that will hit infinity on the camera. You'll need to create your own focus markings, but RFF folks are resourceful. We'll also be including a plastic ground glass.
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Old 04-04-2013   #58
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I have a Harman Titan and have travelled with it so can attest that a lightweight 5x4 and six darkslides is certainly practical. I took mine to Venice and with a changing bag and spare film box easily loaded/unloaded my films in the hotel room of an evening. The kit didn't take up too much room in my bag and I had my M2 and three lenses with me as well.

If I didn't already have the Harman Titan (which I love using) then I'd be tempted.
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Old 04-04-2013   #59
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Yipee! The CFO has given her approval to pledge support. She even thinks it looks like a good idea and it's not even her hobby but mine.
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Old 04-04-2013   #60
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So far I have yet to receive anything from the 3 kick start projects I funded :-(
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Old 04-04-2013   #61
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So far I have yet to receive anything from the 3 kick start projects I funded :-(
Bad luck! I think a lot of Kickstarter projects are from first-time manufacturers with unrealistic expectations about the production process.

We've already been through the wringerówe Kickstarted a physical product (the Pinwide), so we have a much better handle on it now. The dollar amount in our goal is level-headed and realistic and based on actual quotes, the CAD is done, the design has been verified, etc. As with all things in life there is risk, but we've done everything in our power to make this as smooth as possible.

During prep and production, we plan to post many updates so that there's full transparency about where we are in the process.
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Old 04-04-2013   #62
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It so great you're representing your project on RFF! It's less great that some folks feel the need to tell you what kind of camera you can make. Push your signal through the noise. :-)

I just got back from a trip to New Orleans where I really wanted to bring my Speed Graphic with my Contax 645, Fuji GS645S, and SX70, but ultimately I knew it would require a tripod and I don't have mine cam'd so ground glass focusing etc... That was a deal breaker. This would have been perfect to bring in addition to my Contax! I don't understand how folks think this wouldn't be useful. The fotoman and other similar cameras are inaccessible because they're way more money then they're worth. This thing is priced perfectly for a body only! I can't wait to actually WANT to take a 4x5 with me biking on a sunny day in Brooklyn.

Also the pushability and overall versatility of Portra 400 can't be understated in this case. You can shoot that stuff at 1600 and get great results. And we all know Tri-X can be pushed like crazy. Combine that with a leaf shutter and you're looking at being able to shoot at 15th of a sec handheld no problem.

I'm waiting for the kickstarter to be fully funded to pick a 90mm but I'm looking at the Rodenstock 90mm 6.8 Grandagon MC, or its Caltar cousin. Looks like a good option, though ill have to modify the focus marks. You definitely started a run on Schneider 90s. Maybe in the coming months you guys could grab the popular options and do some testing? I'm not sure I understand why the Rodenstock 90mm 6.8 would have different marks than the Schneider... Is it because the Rodenstock is a much larger lens and the rear element sits back further?

Bravo on your vision dude. I think you found a perfect way to deliver a niche product to a small market of devotees, and you avoided charging a luxury tax on them, thereby keeping photography a democratic medium.
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Old 04-04-2013   #63
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I believe that the FAQ on your Kickstarter page is incorrect where you mention what holders you need to shoot the Fuji FP-100c or FP-3000B films. You mention the Fuji PA-145 (which is correct), and the Polaroid 500 and 550 holders (which are not correct). The correct Polaroid holder is the 405. The 500 and 550 are for different films.

I think your camera is a great idea and wish you the best with it.
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Old 04-04-2013   #64
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I'm not sure I understand why the Rodenstock 90mm 6.8 would have different marks than the Schneider... Is it because the Rodenstock is a much larger lens and the rear element sits back further?
First of all, thank you for your wonderful note! I really appreciate it. When you're developing a product for long enough, you eventually start to think, "well, I think this is cool, but will anyone else?" So it's extremely gratifying to hear such positive feedback!

About the Rodenstock and/or other lenses in general: each lens design is actually a little different than the stated focal length. So if it says 90mm, it could be 89.5, or 91.3, etc. In addition to that, the design itself dictates how far the lens must be from the film to achieve infinity focus. On a simple 90mm lens, that would be 90mm, but in many wide angles, they cheat it forward so that the lens is more compatible with view cameras (which may not be able to focus shorter than 90mm). Long story short (too late), that distance ("flange focal distance") is different for each lens design.

rjbuzzclick, thanks for catching that! I was a in a rush when I posted it. It is indeed the 405 holder for pack film!
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Old 04-04-2013   #65
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I'm not sure I understand why the Rodenstock 90mm 6.8 would have different marks than the Schneider... Is it because the Rodenstock is a much larger lens and the rear element sits back further?
To elaborate Ben's answer. I made a focussing cam for my Angulon 90/6.8 on my Technika IV. I have tried mounting my Super Angulon 90/8, and found that while the flange focus distance is quite different (the 90/8 sits a bit further forward, so I use a different infinity stop), the cam range is perfectly accurate for practical purposes.

I'm curious how on Ben's camera the infinity point would be adjusted for a different lens. Is there a stop that can be set on the helical, or would you need to mount the lens with spacers?
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Old 04-04-2013   #66
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awesome! i think this will be a big hit with college photo departments, aside from the holga/lomo crowd.
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Old 04-05-2013   #67
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I'm curious how on Ben's camera the infinity point would be adjusted for a different lens. Is there a stop that can be set on the helical, or would you need to mount the lens with spacers?
Spacers are an interesting idea. Looking at a SA, it seems like we could cheat it forward about 3mm with a spacer, which would be a good thing. However, it wouldn't get you all the way to infinity.

The focus markings will be on the camera body itself, with the indicator on the lens barrel. So if you have a different lens, you'll simply use the included plastic "ground glass" to focus at infinity, and then make a new mark on the barrel next to infinity. Then you'll be able to match the focus markers on the camera with your new mark. It sounds more complicated when I type it outóit's easy.

So you'll lose some of that close-focus capability (with the 6.8 you can go down to 2 feet / 0.6m), but a 3mm spacer would give you some of it back. I'll have to experiment!
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Old 04-05-2013   #68
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Just a thought but have you had any contact with Mike Walker, the designer of the Harman Titan? There's a lot of commonality in the concepts and working together may produce a finer product than working in isolation.
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Old 04-05-2013   #69
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I'd give it a try if I had a darkroom so I could develop 4x5 at home easily.
You don't need a darkroom for developing 4x5 film -- Jobo has (had?) a daylight tank that can develop 6 sheets at the same time. Comes with a small ramp for easy loading (can't remember the number offhand). Only downside (but I can live with that) is that you need 45 oz of chemicals. It works really well.
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Old 04-05-2013   #70
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awesome! i think this will be a big hit with college photo departments, aside from the holga/lomo crowd.
No, the holga/lomo crowd won't like this camera: no light leaks, and a real, sharp lens
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Old 04-05-2013   #71
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Interesting project. I'll definitely keep an eye on it since I already have a SA 90 in the kit. Is the helical a quick mount of any kind? E.g. could I swap between this and a lensboard without having to remount the damn thing every time?
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Old 04-05-2013   #72
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Interesting project. I'll definitely keep an eye on it since I already have a SA 90 in the kit. Is the helical a quick mount of any kind? E.g. could I swap between this and a lensboard without having to remount the damn thing every time?
Hmm, some kind of quick bayonet mount sounds cool, but it would certainly add to the complexity and cost of the camera. Also, your lensboard would need to have the same mount. We could have given the front a standard lens board mount, but it would have made the camera much larger.

Ultimately we tried to focus on keeping the cost down, which meant constantly reminding ourselves to "Keep it simple, stupid!"
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Old 04-05-2013   #73
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Heh - good plan.

There used to be a round bayonet mount for LF lenses (using a special lensboard)... I wonder if they are still made.
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Old 04-05-2013   #74
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How soon the camera will be in production?
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Old 04-05-2013   #75
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How soon the camera will be in production?
First things first: we need to raise $75,000. If we can do that, then on May 2 we'll begin waiting a couple weeks for the funds to transfer. During that time, we will meet with our manufacturing partners and figure out the final details. That's where it gets hazy. Hopefully everything goes smoothly, in which case we just have to wait around for the tooling shop to create the mold and run the first samples (which could take months).

Once we have the first 10 samples, we'll test them to verify that everything is 100% right. Then we'll do the production run. Because so much of this process is out of our hands, we can't give you a calendar date. But we've stated that we want to have these delivered by December.

Hope that helps!
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Reached 65,000 plus today
Old 04-11-2013   #76
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Reached 65,000 plus today

The Kicksrarter for the travelwide LF camera has reached $65,000 plus as of todey. 21 days left....
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Wow!!!
Old 04-13-2013   #77
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Wow!!!

Shot right over $75,000, heading for $100,000. Pledges for over 650 Large Format Cameras.

Eleven days to reach the Kickstarter Goal, and you still have 18 days to get in on this exciting project. Thanks to all who DID participate in reaching the goal.

I did not realize what a great fund raiser Kickstarter is for funding projects. WOW!
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Old 04-13-2013   #78
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It's kind of incredible seeing these kinds of numbers! It definitely gives one a little more hope for the future of film in all sizes.
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Maybe this is a peak at the future of film?
Old 04-13-2013   #79
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Maybe this is a peak at the future of film?

Maybe in some small way we are seeing the future of film reflected in this small project.

Someone has an idea for a camera. The idea makes use of new parts combined with quality used parts and can be funded for a low enough price that it can generate interest through word of mouth. The internet, through something like Kickstarter, is used to create funding and a small, but relatively significant number of cameras are manufactured and sold.
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Old 04-13-2013   #80
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So. I wonder how many 90mm lenses there are out on the used market, and whether their availability will be able to match the 100,000 or so cameras that might be manufactured.

Are we to assume all of these 90mm lenses on the used market have (reasonably) accurate shutters?

And then there's the matter of price inflation of the lenses. If I were bidding on this camera, I'd be looking to acquire a lens right now!

Too bad the cameras don't already come with the lens, that way a purchaser can be guaranteed a functional camera system up front.

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