Elmar vs Summitar
Old 1 Week Ago   #1
davidnewtonguitars
Family Snaps
 
davidnewtonguitars's Avatar
 
davidnewtonguitars is offline
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Beaumont, TX
Posts: 338
Elmar vs Summitar

Not really Elmar vs Summitar..

I have a '38 Leica Standard Model, and more recently a IIIc. I have been swapping the Elmar back & forth between them, sometimes using a Industar 22 on one or the other, I can hardly tell the difference in picture quality.

Will the collapsible Summitar give me anything over what I am using now, I am drawn to a '50's lens for the IIIc, keeping the little Elmar for the Standard.
__________________
Leica IIIc /Leica Ie
5cm Elmar / 5cm Summitar
Zorki-1 / 5cm I-22
http://davidnewtonguitars.squarespace.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #2
splitimageview
Registered User
 
splitimageview is offline
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,111
Summitar is quite nice wide open.

  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #3
HuubL
hunter-gatherer
 
HuubL's Avatar
 
HuubL is offline
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Netherlands
Age: 64
Posts: 2,402
Image quality-wise, there is not much that could be improved on the Elmar. It's a great little lens delivering sharp and contrasty (for its time) images. The Summitar is no slouch either, but I see the f/2 vs 3.5 for the Elmar as its greatest bonus. Mind you, Summitars came in a number of versions, the later, post-war ones with coating, which does improve the contrast a bit. Nevertheless, many people like the way the uncoated lenses deliver.
__________________
Grain, not Noise!
My cameras
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #4
Hatchetman
Registered User
 
Hatchetman is offline
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 171
Summitar @f2.8 is pretty sharp so I'd see it as a gain of one stop. It is A LOT bigger though.
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #5
02Pilot
Malcontent
 
02Pilot is offline
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NY, USA
Posts: 1,038
Echoing what's already been said, Summitar is worth almost two stops but gives up a lot of the compactness that makes the Elmar/Barnack combo so appealing. Elmar will be generally a bit sharper and give a bit more contrast than the Summitar. Rendering is otherwise quite similar. Much as I love the Summitar's rendering (especially around f/4), for general purpose daylight usage, it's hard to beat the Elmar.
__________________
-------------------------------------------------------
Any man who can see what he wants to get on film will usually find some way to get it;
and a man who thinks his equipment is going to see for him is not going to get much of anything.

-Hunter S. Thompson
-
http://filmosaur.wordpress.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #6
davidnewtonguitars
Family Snaps
 
davidnewtonguitars's Avatar
 
davidnewtonguitars is offline
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Beaumont, TX
Posts: 338
Yes, I would really hate to lose the "slide in the pocket" thing.
I guess I would like to have a dedicated lens for the IIIc, but it would be silly to just get another Elmar.
__________________
Leica IIIc /Leica Ie
5cm Elmar / 5cm Summitar
Zorki-1 / 5cm I-22
http://davidnewtonguitars.squarespace.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #8
davidnewtonguitars
Family Snaps
 
davidnewtonguitars's Avatar
 
davidnewtonguitars is offline
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Beaumont, TX
Posts: 338
I've been 5cm only for so long, but have been considering that also. Either a color skopar or 25mm snapshot skopar, because they can come with the finders, but neither are collapsible.
A 3.5cm Summaron is a possibility, but I'm not sure I like its style, and the Leica finders are so expensive.
__________________
Leica IIIc /Leica Ie
5cm Elmar / 5cm Summitar
Zorki-1 / 5cm I-22
http://davidnewtonguitars.squarespace.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #9
MIkhail
Registered User
 
MIkhail's Avatar
 
MIkhail is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 846
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidnewtonguitars View Post
I've been 5cm only for so long, but have been considering that also. Either a color skopar or 25mm snapshot skopar, because they can come with the finders, but neither are collapsible.
A 3.5cm Summaron is a possibility, but I'm not sure I like its style, and the Leica finders are so expensive.
Yes, all true...
also, summaron is kind of old lens. Skopars are nice.
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #10
rumbliegeos
Registered User
 
rumbliegeos's Avatar
 
rumbliegeos is offline
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 244
From my perspective the big difference is in the ease of changing the aperture and using filters. The Summitar has an aperture ring that can be accessed when filters are installed, and with an inexpensive adapter, you can use easily obtained modern filters. I liked the compactness of the red-scale Elmar I once had, but I did not like its fiddly aperture control. And given the fragility of the coatings, I wanted to have a protective filter in front the glass all of the time.
__________________
Gerry
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #11
David Hughes
Registered User
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,712
Hi,

I don't know what year your IIIc is but if it's post-war I'd get the post-war Summitar, which is coated, and a very good lens.

Samples:-








Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #12
davidnewtonguitars
Family Snaps
 
davidnewtonguitars's Avatar
 
davidnewtonguitars is offline
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Beaumont, TX
Posts: 338
Thanks David, your opinion is highly regarded.
On the other hand, I might rather have a Willys Jeep with 50cal gun.
That's what I call shooting!
__________________
Leica IIIc /Leica Ie
5cm Elmar / 5cm Summitar
Zorki-1 / 5cm I-22
http://davidnewtonguitars.squarespace.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #13
Dralowid
Michael
 
Dralowid's Avatar
 
Dralowid is offline
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,189
For me it is as much about weight as size. I'm thinking of getting rid of my Summarit because it makes the whole thing unbalanced. Nowadays the extra stops seem far less importance than once they were. A late, coated Elmar is very good thing indeed.
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #14
Erik van Straten
Registered User
 
Erik van Straten's Avatar
 
Erik van Straten is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post
I'm thinking of getting rid of my Summarit. A late, coated Elmar is very good thing indeed.
I agree with Michael here. A coated Summar is also very good. A Summitar is for me insupportable, not only bacause of the weight, but also because of the distortion. I know that to say this in this church is blasphemy.

Erik.
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #15
splitimageview
Registered User
 
splitimageview is offline
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,111
Coated Elmar for pocketability

Coated Summitar

Uncoated Summitar

Collapsible Summicron

Collapsible 50/2 Nikkor (Sonnar)

This is my set depending on the subject, situation, film, and mood.
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #16
mcfingon
Western Australia
 
mcfingon is offline
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
I agree with Michael here. A coated Summar is also very good. A Summitar is for me insupportable, not only bacause of the weight, but also because of the distortion. I know that to say this in this church is blasphemy.

Erik.
I don't think that's blasphemous Erik. It's taken me a while, but I now think the two Elmars I have ('46 and '97) are my favourite lenses, particularly when you take portability into account. And that's what the Leicas were made for, isn't it?
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #17
Dralowid
Michael
 
Dralowid's Avatar
 
Dralowid is offline
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,189
Maybe it is an age thing, as I get older my lenses get smaller. For LTM I have Elmar, Summar and a 2.8 Summaron.

For my M I have Elmar M and the same Summaron.

It is enough. Anything else just doesn't get used.
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #18
Erik van Straten
Registered User
 
Erik van Straten's Avatar
 
Erik van Straten is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post

For my M I have Elmar M and the same Summaron.

It is enough. Anything else just doesn't get used.
When I really must go back to two lenses, it would be a Summaron 35mm f/2.8 and a Color-Skopar 50mm f/2.5, both LTM. The Elmar-M is a beautiful lens, but the retraction/extension is not very user friendly.

Erik.
  Reply With Quote

Summitar Distortion?
Old 1 Week Ago   #19
Hatchetman
Registered User
 
Hatchetman is offline
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 171
Summitar Distortion?

Never noticed any. Any examples?
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #20
Bar8barian
Registered User
 
Bar8barian's Avatar
 
Bar8barian is offline
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: "Sceptred Isle"
Posts: 170
For portability the 5cm Elmar cannot, in my opinion, be improved on.
I use my Leica II (rare wartime-1942) with a 5cm F3.5 Elmar uncoated (wartime 1941) and they are really pocketable.
__________________
Regards,
Bar8barian


War-time Leica II (1942) Serial No.352831.
Leitz 5cm f3.5 Elmar (1941) Serial No.568786.
Chiyoda Kogaku 5cm f1.8 Super Rokkor (1958/59) Serial No.1302066.

Nikon F2 - early 5.8cm f1.4 Nikkor-S Serial No. 140296 (1959).



  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #21
Erik van Straten
Registered User
 
Erik van Straten's Avatar
 
Erik van Straten is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatchetman View Post
Never noticed any. Any examples?
Here you go. Pincushion distortion. (Summitar version: uncoated and 10-blades)

Erik.

  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #22
HuubL
hunter-gatherer
 
HuubL's Avatar
 
HuubL is offline
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Netherlands
Age: 64
Posts: 2,402
And....the Summitar has that boké with highlights I don't like that much. Impossible for use between trees and leaves against a backlit background.
__________________
Grain, not Noise!
My cameras
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #23
Erik van Straten
Registered User
 
Erik van Straten's Avatar
 
Erik van Straten is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,343
Leica I, Elmar 50mm f/3.5 uncoated, 400-2TMY.

Erik.





  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #24
Dralowid
Michael
 
Dralowid's Avatar
 
Dralowid is offline
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
When I really must go back to two lenses, it would be a Summaron 35mm f/2.8 and a Color-Skopar 50mm f/2.5, both LTM. The Elmar-M is a beautiful lens, but the retraction/extension is not very user friendly.

Erik.
I have put a small rubber band around the Elmar M's barrel just thick enough to help get the lens out when a hood is not fitted.
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #25
davidnewtonguitars
Family Snaps
 
davidnewtonguitars's Avatar
 
davidnewtonguitars is offline
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Beaumont, TX
Posts: 338
Thanks a lot guys, you are true enablers.
I have a good coated Elmar that I really like on the Standard and I am partial to that camera a majority of the time, for its pocket-ability, ease of use, and its images .
I just pulled the trigger on a '51 Summitar for the '48 IIIc.
I like the look of the images that I've seen, I hope the one I got lives up to that look.
__________________
Leica IIIc /Leica Ie
5cm Elmar / 5cm Summitar
Zorki-1 / 5cm I-22
http://davidnewtonguitars.squarespace.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #26
splitimageview
Registered User
 
splitimageview is offline
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,111
Excellent choice!

Check the thread here, 'Summitar the Star'

  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #27
davidnewtonguitars
Family Snaps
 
davidnewtonguitars's Avatar
 
davidnewtonguitars is offline
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Beaumont, TX
Posts: 338
Oh yes, I looked at all the pics there. There seems to be some variation in how individual lenses paint, but the lens wide open is its most striking feature.
__________________
Leica IIIc /Leica Ie
5cm Elmar / 5cm Summitar
Zorki-1 / 5cm I-22
http://davidnewtonguitars.squarespace.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #28
Steve M.
Registered User
 
Steve M. is offline
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,384
It's funny isn't it? Even though the Industar is a Tessar design, it images almost exactly like an Elmar, as you noticed. If you want to see any noticeable difference in images, not better, just different, put a collapsible Summicron on it. Great lenses. But the Elmar or Industar will do the job just fine too. The problem w/ the Elmar is that fiddely aperture setting and the need to work around that w/ your hood, but they're such tiny little gems it's worth it. I owned several Summitars (get ready to pay a lot for filters) and thought they were not the equal of a Summmicron, especially in bokeh.
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #29
Jerevan
Recycled User
 
Jerevan's Avatar
 
Jerevan is offline
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M. View Post
It's funny isn't it? Even though the Industar is a Tessar design, it images almost exactly like an Elmar, as you noticed.
Yeah, because they both are Tessar derivatives.
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #30
David Hughes
Registered User
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,712
Hi,

Dennis Taylor and the Cooke's Triplet come into it somewhere, I think you'll find...

Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #31
David Hughes
Registered User
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,712
Talking of Elmars and so on reminded me that I had a series of grab shots involving a Zorki 1 and Industar-22, and a Leica Digilux 2 on smugmug. Anyway, FWIW, here's an Industar-22 shot.



I was on the way to Wales when I stopped for tea here and this was in the car park. I had the Zorki and my Digilux 2 in the car and grabbed them to take a series of shots. I used the funny 16 rule for the Zorki shots; only I don't call it that because I learnt it a long, long time ago and start with 100th at f/8...

Regards, David

PS The entire sequence was taken in a hurry and is here:- https://idrh.smugmug.com/Trains/Movi...ruro/i-HmCZLFx

I didn't take all the photo's as my wife was also shooting away and the sequence is a combination of two photographers and four cameras and film and digital.
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #32
davidnewtonguitars
Family Snaps
 
davidnewtonguitars's Avatar
 
davidnewtonguitars is offline
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Beaumont, TX
Posts: 338
Great group of pictures David. I assume it was being moved to Sodor.
__________________
Leica IIIc /Leica Ie
5cm Elmar / 5cm Summitar
Zorki-1 / 5cm I-22
http://davidnewtonguitars.squarespace.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #33
Kent
Finally at home...
 
Kent's Avatar
 
Kent is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Germany
Age: 46
Posts: 1,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuubL View Post
And....the Summitar has that boké with highlights I don't like that much. Impossible for use between trees and leaves against a backlit background.
Or... you want exactly that.
__________________
Cheers, Kent
_______
Main Cams: Nikon, Leica, Fuji, Olympus, Pentax, Panasonic, Canon
Main Lenses: Nikkor, Leica, Voigtländer, Fuji, Sigma, Pentax, Tamron, Samyang etc.
Click me...
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #34
davidnewtonguitars
Family Snaps
 
davidnewtonguitars's Avatar
 
davidnewtonguitars is offline
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Beaumont, TX
Posts: 338
I have my first rangefinder, Zorki-Zorki w/ I-22.
I'm not using it now, but I don't think I will sell it, since it is an excellent example.

__________________
Leica IIIc /Leica Ie
5cm Elmar / 5cm Summitar
Zorki-1 / 5cm I-22
http://davidnewtonguitars.squarespace.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #35
bakemono
Registered User
 
bakemono's Avatar
 
bakemono is offline
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 74
Summitar's bokeh is pretty unique. No other lens has the same look, yes, there are other 'swirlers' and 'bubblers' but I haven't seen one that has that distinct summitar look.
I guess you either love it or hate it. I'm not sure which one is it for me. Depends on the mood I guess

Here's wide open.




  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #36
David Hughes
Registered User
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,712
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidnewtonguitars View Post
Great group of pictures David. I assume it was being moved to Sodor.
Hi,

Even better than that, she's now retired to the National Railway Museum. FWIW, she was the first to exceed 100mph in 1903 or 1904 but it was kept quiet for a long time as they didn't want to frighten people!

Regards, David

PS Rail enthusiasts who want a feel good story should look up the "Barry Scrapyard" and get a nice warm feeling...

PPS So what lens have you decided to get?
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #37
Whateverist
Registered User
 
Whateverist's Avatar
 
Whateverist is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 238
I had a post-war Elmar and added a pre-war, uncoated Summitar. The key reason was the higher speed and the flexibility it gives in low light. Having a full-size aperture ring is also a huge improvement over the Elmar's tiny little one, especially with a filter mounted.

One thing I hadn't counted on is that it only closes to 12,5, so bright daylight is sometimes an issue.
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #38
mcfingon
Western Australia
 
mcfingon is offline
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakemono View Post
Summitar's bokeh is pretty unique. No other lens has the same look, yes, there are other 'swirlers' and 'bubblers' but I haven't seen one that has that distinct summitar look.
I guess you either love it or hate it. I'm not sure which one is it for me. Depends on the mood I guess

Here's wide open.




That Summitar looks very good to me, particularly the backlit one. Lovely photos. The one I had was much more flare-prone. I've now settled for the more "neutral" look of the Elmar.
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #39
davidnewtonguitars
Family Snaps
 
davidnewtonguitars's Avatar
 
davidnewtonguitars is offline
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Beaumont, TX
Posts: 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Hi,

PPS So what lens have you decided to get?
A 1951 Summitar, in feet, & not in my hands yet, and missing the cap.
I figure I bought a cleaner looking lens at a slightly lower price but will have to spend money ( or something ) to get a proper cap.

If anyone has a cap laying around not being used, I would welcome a shout.

__________________
Leica IIIc /Leica Ie
5cm Elmar / 5cm Summitar
Zorki-1 / 5cm I-22
http://davidnewtonguitars.squarespace.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 1 Week Ago   #40
Hatchetman
Registered User
 
Hatchetman is offline
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 171
I use a yellow filter as a "cap"
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:13.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.