Old 03-05-2017   #121
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Originally Posted by nobbylon View Post
Strange as I've taken a few sunsets and sunrises and never had problems.

http://www.johnwhitfieldphoto.com/al...ps-img-1222357
Not sunset or sunrise, but more middle of the day thing. Low camera angle so I can frame upwards to my subject with the sun in the image.
Like this. I had to remove the line in LR w/ the cloning tool.

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Old 03-06-2017   #122
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Originally Posted by Gregm61 View Post
Is anyone even developing the CCD image sensor anymore? I would imagine no. That ship has sailed.

I'm not sure who is supplying Leica with the M9 replacement sensors, one of which was installed on my M9-P last May, but it pretty much duplicates what the M9 was capable of when it was new 7 years ago, which isn't all that great above about ISO 800, but beautiful, even gorgeous if you can keep it between ISO 160-400. It's a perfect backup body, backup being something you only resort to when your main body isn't available.
Really? Teledynedalsa thinks otherwise...
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Typical applications are industrial and scientific, including aerial and satellite imaging. Custom variants of this process supply many of the image sensors used in the industry-leading digital cameras of Teledyne DALSA's Machine Vision division. NASA's JPL chose Teledyne DALSA to fabricate several of the image sensors on the Curiosity Mars Rover, just as it did for the earlier Spirit and Opportunity Rovers.
Truesense - ON semiconductor developed the improved corrosion proof CCD for replacement in the M9.
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Old 03-06-2017   #123
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
One thing that I really really didn't like about the CCD sensor in my M-E is that often if I had the sun in the image it would create solid thick vertical or horizontal lines from the point of light source which is some sort of sensor artifact. Something that I never got with the CMOS M240 sensor...
This is consistent with sensor blooming. Excessive charge in a few photos-diode sites leaks into other sites in the same electrical circuit. Blooming depend directly on the amount of overexposure.

CMOS is inherently less susceptible to blooming. With current chip designs blooming is rarely seen. Of course profound overexposure can cause and, or reveal all sorts of undesirable artifacts. So CMOS blooming is not impossible, but even so it will be more localized.
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Old 03-06-2017   #124
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This is consistent with sensor blooming. Excessive charge in a few photos-diode sites leaks into other sites in the same electrical circuit. Blooming depend directly on the amount of overexposure.

CMOS is inherently less susceptible to blooming. With current chip designs blooming is rarely seen. Of course profound overexposure can cause and, or reveal all sorts of undesirable artifacts. So CMOS blooming is not impossible, but even so it will be more localized.
Thanks for the info, I had read the explanation before but had forgotten the details.
I don't want the sensor I am using to limit my creativity, film does not, nor does CMOS and so this is one of many reasons why I do not miss my M-E. Having sensor issues at base ISO does not work for me.
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Old 03-06-2017   #125
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Originally Posted by Gregm61 View Post
Is anyone even developing the CCD image sensor anymore? I would imagine no. That ship has sailed.

I'm not sure who is supplying Leica with the M9 replacement sensors, one of which was installed on my M9-P last May, but it pretty much duplicates what the M9 was capable of when it was new 7 years ago, which isn't all that great above about ISO 800, but beautiful, even gorgeous if you can keep it between ISO 160-400. It's a perfect backup body, backup being something you only resort to when your main body isn't available.
I don't think CCD in advance camera will happen again. This is why I like to hold to my M-E and M8. As film shooter who is using grainy 400 ISO films and pushing them to 1600 I see no problem with M8 ISO 1250 and M9 ISO 2500 for color. If it isn't extremely dark, noise looks like film grain on scans.

If I need clean image under low light, I use Leica TTL flash. Actually, with any camera I prefer flash. Even if it is FF CMOS and ISO6400 is well supported. One of our daughters takes same approach for paid photography. Instead of chasing low light with ISO6400 and fast prime, she is flashing it at f5.6 and lower ISO with TTL flash.

Here is one thing I like in Leica M-E and it is also present in M8 files, but less (I don't use IR-cut filter). With CMOS sensors I was never into pixel, 100% zoom. It is nothing to see with CMOS, but pixels. With Leica CCD it is really facilitating to look at image details. I never seen images to be so clean and so full of details. At 100% zoom with CCD it looks like it will take another 100% zoom before it starts to show some pixels.
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Old 03-06-2017   #126
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Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
...

Truesense - ON semiconductor developed the improved corrosion proof CCD for replacement in the M9.
Are you saying Truesense and, or ON Semiconductor uses an improved (i.e. different) CCD photo-diode array components and ancillary electronics design compared to the Kodak manufactured sensor assemblies?

Obviously the On Semiconductor M9 sensor assembly has an improved passive component, i.e. the IR filter/cover glass. Perhaps Truesense or ON Semiconductor improved upon Kodak's manufacturing methods.

I don't how using CCD technology for corrosion-proof replacements contradicts the assertion that advancements in CCD technology for still-photography has ceased. What other option was there to solve the M9 problem?

Industrial and scientific applications are a completely different story as CCD provides specific advantages for specialized usage.
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Old 03-07-2017   #127
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I sold them, back in the day. Never owned one myself ... I had Nikons and Leicas.
Some restaurants serve Pepsi but no Coca Cola, but I never go back, and have been known to leave during ordering.
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Old 03-07-2017   #128
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Some restaurants serve Pepsi but no Coca Cola, but I never go back, and have been known to leave during ordering.
That's funny, good for you. I have thought about doing the same thing, but lack the necessary principles.
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Old 03-07-2017   #129
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Originally Posted by nikonhswebmaster View Post
Some restaurants serve Pepsi but no Coca Cola, but I never go back, and have been known to leave during ordering.
Good for you.

Personally, I dislike all cola drinks and prefer water. I've never had to walk out of a restaurant on the basis of not being able to get a good glass of water...

G
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Old 03-08-2017   #130
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
One thing that I really really didn't like about the CCD sensor in my M-E is that often if I had the sun in the image it would create solid thick vertical or horizontal lines from the point of light source which is some sort of sensor artifact. Something that I never got with the CMOS M240 sensor, or of course never got on film.
Base ISO, f11 or f16

Sensor remapping didn't help, and it was not a corroded sensor (that happened later)
It happened also a lot on my M8 and also on my Monochrom at times. The reason if I get it right is the way the sensor is mapped and read out. The power supply probably gets slightly depleted in one of the array's (or a whole bunch) when these are over exposed. There was a lot written about it some 10 yeras ago.

On the M8 it annoyed me and was on the list of why to change;
on my MM with its deliberate choice of camera I happily made a trade-off and by the way it does not happen all that often anymore.
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Old 03-08-2017   #131
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It is light from a source on the edge of the frame falling on the reference pixels outside the image,which are supposd to be sealed.
This was mainly on the M8, but there are a few examples from the M9.
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Old 03-08-2017   #132
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Good for you.

Personally, I dislike all cola drinks and prefer water. I've never had to walk out of a restaurant on the basis of not being able to get a good glass of water...

G
My point I guess is I am kind of a simple midwestern guy, brand wise. I buy DELL or Apple, Leica or Nikon, Jack Daniel's or Coca Cola.

And lately I most wholeheartedly agree with you regarding water with meals.
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Old 03-08-2017   #133
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I think you meant Jack Daniels *with* Coca Cola.
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Old 03-09-2017   #134
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The saddest part about this are those trying to sell their M240s that they bought a couple of months ago for $5000+.
I've seen these ads, along with the text saying they will include the receipt that shows they just paid $7K for it..
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M10 has destroyed the used market
Old 03-09-2017   #135
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M10 has destroyed the used market

Or should the title be:

M10 is creating exciting new ownership possibilities for the less well heeled...

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Old 03-09-2017   #136
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I bought only used M8 and M9, with a partial trade, and I am getting my money's worth.
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Old 03-10-2017   #137
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The saddest part about this are those trying to sell their M240s that they bought a couple of months ago for $5000+.
I've seen these ads, along with the text saying they will include the receipt that shows they just paid $7K for it..
I don't think that's so bad at all really for a camera that's a few years old. Even the most recent of cameras (in stock cameras) go for 75-80% of new price once used.
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Old 03-10-2017   #138
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Looking digital-M prices in Europe, don't think they have changed much since the introduction of M10. M9 prices are still on same level as before. M240 may have taken little dive, but considering how high it still is, not major change either.
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Old 03-10-2017   #139
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I don't think that's so bad at all really for a camera that's a few years old. Even the most recent of cameras (in stock cameras) go for 75-80% of new price once used.
They just bought it... had no idea the M10 was a month away...
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Old 03-10-2017   #140
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They just bought it... had no idea the M10 was a month away...
I'm not sure what to say... they still got a hell of a camera.
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Old 03-10-2017   #141
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Only after the M240 was introduced, the M8 prices dropped very quickly.
The rule is: the previous model keeps some value, but after that is is dead weight.
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Old 03-10-2017   #142
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They just bought it... had no idea the M10 was a month away...
The month before?
Due diligence would have noted the crescendo of rumours and "leaks" let alone the time from introduction to new models being fairly predictable.

M8 – 2006
M9 – 2009
M (Type 240) – 2012
Leica M10 - 2017

Actually well overdue, did they think the Type 240 was going to be end of line?
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Old 03-11-2017   #143
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I'm hoping the a used FF M will drop in price to around $1,000 USD so I can jump back in.

I'd be happy with any of them, Monochrome, M-D, just so long as it's FF.

B2 (;->
Pretty close to my thoughts.
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Old 03-11-2017   #144
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If your initial purchase was secondhand then Leica seems pretty decent. I bought an M8 in 2007 for £1800, I sold it for the same amount shortly after as I didn't get on with the colours, Looking at the completed listings on ebay now, ten years later, they seem to be going for just over £1000-£1100. That seems pretty good to me. Do Canon and Nikons of similar vintage hold their price as well.
I bought an M-P about four months ago with extra battery, Olympus EVF, and the multifunction grip [£600] for £3500, I reckon I can get a good percentage of that back when I come to sell whenever that is. The big hit is from new, but that goes for just about anything.
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Old 03-11-2017   #145
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This...
If you buy secondhand and well you can use a Leica Digital Body almost for free for a number of years and then sell it on. I don't see M240 prices having dipped much beyond what I paid two years back.
If you buy new it's a different story of course. But I bet it's nice buying something new.

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If your initial purchase was secondhand then Leica seems pretty decent. I bought an M8 in 2007 for £1800, I sold it for the same amount shortly after as I didn't get on with the colours, Looking at the completed listings on ebay now, ten years later, they seem to be going for just over £1000-£1100. That seems pretty good to me. Do Canon and Nikons of similar vintage hold their price as well.
I bought an M-P about four months ago with extra battery, Olympus EVF, and the multifunction grip [£600] for £3500, I reckon I can get a good percentage of that back when I come to sell whenever that is. The big hit is from new, but that goes for just about anything.
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Old 03-16-2017   #146
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Question: I'm considering moving from my M-P bought last year to an M10 mostly because of the VF changes. Does anyone know if the warranty is transferrable? If it is, that might push me into making a decision.
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Old 03-16-2017   #147
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Question: I'm considering moving from my M-P bought last year to an M10 mostly because of the VF changes. Does anyone know if the warranty is transferrable? If it is, that might push me into making a decision.
In the U.S. I believe not.
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Old 03-16-2017   #148
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Question: I'm considering moving from my M-P bought last year to an M10 mostly because of the VF changes.
Do you find the VF that much different? I compared it to my M, and you still cannot see the 28mm frame lines if you are wearing glasses. It is a little larger but not in any way that would aid my photography. I see the 35mm frames just fine on my M, and the 28 frame is bad with both. Just one is a little less bad.
I feel the same way about the shutter sound! I could barely tell a difference and I'm not deaf. I said, I'm not deaf!


It really has made these second hand Ms a screaming deal.
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Old 03-16-2017   #149
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Originally Posted by Ken Ford View Post
Question: I'm considering moving from my M-P bought last year to an M10 mostly because of the VF changes. Does anyone know if the warranty is transferrable? If it is, that might push me into making a decision.
Given the M10 is on backorder, it honestly might be cheaper and faster to just get the M10 finder put into the M-E.
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Old 03-16-2017   #150
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I'm going to send in my M9-P for the sensor replacement and shoot with an X100 while it's gone, I think.
Hey, you're not planning on raiding my camera drawer, are you?

I brought my M9-P to Leica NJ for a sensor replacement last year, and enjoyed a second honeymoon with my X100. But it was taking so long for them to get a batch of the new model sensors, that I jokingly suggested they send me a loaner. Three days later I was shooting with an M240. It was a fun camera, but I was happy to get my M9-P back.

BTW, you'll get a new sensor, but you'll lose the lovely hard vulcanite covering -- Leica doesn't make it any more -- they'll replace it with the softer M240 covering. (Unless you get them to put on a fancy a-la-carte leather covering.....)
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Old 03-16-2017   #151
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Originally Posted by DrMcCoy View Post
Given the M10 is on backorder, it honestly might be cheaper and faster to just get the M10 finder put into the M-E.
Is that a thing?
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Old 03-17-2017   #152
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Hey, you're not planning on raiding my camera drawer, are you?

I brought my M9-P to Leica NJ for a sensor replacement last year, and enjoyed a second honeymoon with my X100. But it was taking so long for them to get a batch of the new model sensors, that I jokingly suggested they send me a loaner. Three days later I was shooting with an M240. It was a fun camera, but I was happy to get my M9-P back.

BTW, you'll get a new sensor, but you'll lose the lovely hard vulcanite covering -- Leica doesn't make it any more -- they'll replace it with the softer M240 covering. (Unless you get them to put on a fancy a-la-carte leather covering.....)
Or replace it by something nice by Cameraleather
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Old 03-17-2017   #153
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Given the M10 is on backorder, it honestly might be cheaper and faster to just get the M10 finder put into the M-E.
You can't. The magnification change is because of the physical difference in body thickness. Otherwise the VF is essentially the same between the cameras.

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Old 03-17-2017   #154
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You can't. The magnification change is because of the physical difference in body thickness. Otherwise the VF is essentially the same between the cameras.

Marty
That's what I suspected. Plus, losing video is a plus to me, and the reported faster operation, and the better EVF (something I actually use.)
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Old 03-17-2017   #155
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Or replace it by something nice by Cameraleather
My last order from them took months and months to show up, then did not fit properly. Previous orders fit perfectly, still took a long time to arrive.

Aki-Asahi show up super quick (days) and fit perfectly.
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Old 03-17-2017   #156
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hugostudio.com has the closest match to original vulcanite (M2, M3, M4 style.)
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M10 has destroyed the used market
Old 03-19-2017   #157
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M10 has destroyed the used market

Relieved that I traded my M-P for my M10 at the local Leica Store... got 4.3k for it.

(first week of the new camera, before all the depreciation)
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Old 03-19-2017   #158
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Hey, you're not planning on raiding my camera drawer, are you?

I brought my M9-P to Leica NJ for a sensor replacement last year, and enjoyed a second honeymoon with my X100. But it was taking so long for them to get a batch of the new model sensors, that I jokingly suggested they send me a loaner. Three days later I was shooting with an M240. It was a fun camera, but I was happy to get my M9-P back.

BTW, you'll get a new sensor, but you'll lose the lovely hard vulcanite covering -- Leica doesn't make it any more -- they'll replace it with the softer M240 covering. (Unless you get them to put on a fancy a-la-carte leather covering.....)
Damn. I like my Vulcanite!! Glad to see there's a place where I can get some aftermarket stuff.

I picked up a Pen-F, too.
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Old 03-21-2017   #159
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Damn. I like my Vulcanite!! Glad to see there's a place where I can get some aftermarket stuff.

I picked up a Pen-F, too.
Yeah, the Vulcanite was great. The new covering always feels a bit grimy to me, even if it isn't (if that makes any sense). The X100 has a nice covering as well -- not as pebbly as that on the M9-P, but still more pleasing than the M240 covering.

Not sure if I'd be brave enough to strip off Leica's replacement covering and apply an aftermarket solution. Let us know how it goes!

Mmmm, I handled a Pen-F at B&H a few weeks ago, and it was very attractive. But I'm going to resist opening myself up to GAS attacks in a whole new lens system for micro-4/3....
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Old 03-22-2017   #160
asiafish
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I bought my M-D the week before the M10 was released, but when specs were out and pre-order fever was well underway. My camera was gently used (500 clicks) and came like new with box and papers for $4800.

Almost three months later and I remain absolutely delighted with it, and while I was very excited with the M10 (more the viewfinder than anything else), the M-D remains tied with the original CCD M Monochrom (mine is still at Leica NJ for RF calibration) my favorite digital Leica.
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