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Fed 2 with Jupiter 12 problems
Old 01-31-2017   #1
Bridgey
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Fed 2 with Jupiter 12 problems

Hi folks, newbie here. I have a fed 2, green body with jupiter 35mm 50mm and 135mm lenses. All is going good, albeit with a steep learning curve. I used my black bodied 35mm lens for first time last weekend, after developing film, all photos were out of focus. I have not had this problem with the other two lenses. Is the problem pilot error with this lens? I focused on distant object and the lens was not on infinity symbol. Any advice would be bloody fantastic.


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Mark.
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Old 01-31-2017   #2
Nikos72
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Hi Mark and welcome to the forum.
It looks like the rangefinder of your fed needs adjustment.
Try this:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...ad.php?t=73900
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Old 01-31-2017   #3
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Thanks for the reply, i'll have a look at your link.
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Old 01-31-2017   #4
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Hello Mark, and Welcome.

If the other two lenses do not cause problems, then the camera's rangefinder is likely O.K.

It's the Jupiter-12, I guess; probably, a previous owner did something to it. Where did you buy it? Is there any chance to ask the seller?
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Old 01-31-2017   #5
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Quote:
I have not had this problem with the other two lenses.
Quote:
I focused on distant object and the lens was not on infinity symbol.
Very obvious, where problem is, isn't it?
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Old 01-31-2017   #6
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I have read somewhere that black J12 lenses do not work well with Fed2 bodies. When I had both, I found that to be true. Rangefinder "finger" does not touch cam in the lens. The arm of camera has to be bent up a little to make sure it clears body of a lens and comes in touch with rangefinder cam. You can open shutter on B and inspect it from the back. It will be hard to see due to size of rear element.
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Old 01-31-2017   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy Fedya View Post
I have read somewhere that black J12 lenses do not work well with Fed2 bodies. When I had both, I found that to be true. Rangefinder "finger" does not touch cam in the lens. The arm of camera has to be bent up a little to make sure it clears body of a lens and comes in touch with rangefinder cam. You can open shutter on B and inspect it from the back. It will be hard to see due to size of rear element.
Yup, good advice.

I had that very same problem with the Fed 2 and J-12 lens and in my case bending the cam arm down and re-checking infinity alignment and the 1 metre focus point of the RF solved the problem.
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Old 01-31-2017   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Very obvious, where problem is, isn't it?
Could you elaborate that a bit, please?

(I'd say the lens. Bending the rangefinder cam arm wouldn't be my first recommendation.)
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Old 01-31-2017   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radi(c)al_cam View Post
Could you elaborate that a bit, please?

(I'd say the lens. Bending the rangefinder cam arm wouldn't be my first recommendation.)
Wouldn't mine either, because I read this:
Quote:
I focused on distant object and the lens was not on infinity symbol.
It tells me that lens cam is pushing RF arm properly, but lens focus helicoid assembly went wrong.
My suggestion is still to inspect it at B and back removed, just it case and if everything looks fine, here is two options. Re-position focus ring to match lens focus at infinity, most easy one to do. But it needs to be verified with ground glass to see if RF focusing matches. Most likely it isn't and then lens focusing part need to be reassembled properly. Again with verification on ground glass.
I recently disassembled 1950 J-12 to get rid of old grease and re-shimmed it for M. Focus smoothness now is better comparing to new CV Zeiss lens I have.
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Old 01-31-2017   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Wouldn't mine either, because I read this:

It tells me that lens cam is pushing RF arm properly, but lens focus helicoid assembly went wrong.
My suggestion is still to inspect it at B and back removed, just it case and if everything looks fine, here is two options. Re-position focus ring to match lens focus at infinity, most easy one to do. But it needs to be verified with ground glass to see if RF focusing matches. Most likely it isn't and then lens focusing part need to be reassembled properly. Again with verification on ground glass.
I recently disassembled 1950 J-12 to get rid of old grease and re-shimmed it for M. Focus smoothness now is better comparing to new CV Zeiss lens I have.
The problem with the Fed 2 and some J-12 lenses is that the RF cam on the arm in the camera is positioned slightly too high to properly mate with the focus back cam on some of the J-12 lenses and a slight bend of the RF arm will fix this issue.

Doing a re-check of the infinity and proper 1 metre focus ability after is a must after the RF cam arm is slightly bent. In my case very little needed re-calibration.
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Old 01-31-2017   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xayraa33 View Post
The problem with the Fed 2 and some J-12 lenses is that the RF cam on the arm in the camera is positioned slightly too high to properly mate with the focus back cam on some of the J-12 lenses and a slight bend of the RF arm will fix this issue.

Doing a re-check of the infinity and proper 1 metre focus ability after is a must after the RF cam arm is slightly bent. In my case very little needed re-calibration.
Yes, I'm fully aware of this problem and I was writing about it on this and very forum and how to fix it.
But, if OP writes " I focused on distant object and the lens was not on infinity symbol" it tells me what RF arm is traveling as it should. You can't focus RF on infinity if RF arm is not traveling freely, isn't it?
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Old 01-31-2017   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Yes, I'm fully aware of this problem and I was writing about it on this and very problem and how to fix it.
But, if OP writes " I focused on distant object and the lens was not on infinity symbol" it tells me what RF arm is traveling as it should. You can't focus RF on infinity if RF arm is not traveling freely, isn't it?
The RF cam arm should be checked for free and easy travel first thing off the bat. I do this on my many Fed 5 bodies, as the RF arm on these models tend to stick if the camera is not frequently used.

Remember the OP's original problem is: "I used my black bodied 35mm lens for first time last weekend, after developing film, all photos were out of focus. I have not had this problem with the other two lenses. Is the problem pilot error with this lens? I focused on distant object and the lens was not on infinity symbol. Any advice would be bloody fantastic."

This is exactly what my problem was on my FED 2 when used with my black finish J-12 lens and I repeated to the OP on how I fixed the problem.

As a caveat, as they say, YMMV. ( your mileage may vary)
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Old 01-31-2017   #13
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Since "I have not had this problem with the other two lenses", then it looks like the RF cam was being pushed by the rear elements of J12, and the rangefinder patch reached infinity prematurely.

But then we must ask OP if the lens can reach infinity symbol when mounted on the FED-2.
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Old 01-31-2017   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xayraa33 View Post
The RF cam arm should be checked for free and easy travel first thing off the bat. I do this on my many Fed 5 bodies, as the RF arm on these models tend to stick if the camera is not frequently used.

Remember the OP's original problem is: "I used my black bodied 35mm lens for first time last weekend, after developing film, all photos were out of focus. I have not had this problem with the other two lenses. Is the problem pilot error with this lens? I focused on distant object and the lens was not on infinity symbol. Any advice would be bloody fantastic."

This is exactly what my problem was on my FED 2 when used with my black finish J-12 lens and I repeated to the OP on how I fixed the problem.

As a caveat, as they say, YMMV. ( your mileage may vary)

I had this problem with my FED-2 and white bodied 35 lens. I couldn't even get it to infinity. I could feel how RF boot was scratching the lens. And it was very obvious to not to shot with it.

But sure mileage may vary.
I came once at customer site and was re-attaching control cables. I was making sure they are attached tight. And I broke couple of threads just by horsing it in.

This is why I also suggested to open back and inspect it on B. It might be still possible what RF boot is leaving lens RF cam, getting seized between RF cam and lens body and RF is still horsed in all way up to infinity. Or gap between lens RF cam and lens body is so significant it doesn't feel at all.
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Old 01-31-2017   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I had this problem with my FED-2 and white bodied 35 lens. I couldn't even get it to infinity. I could feel how RF boot was scratching the lens. And it was very obvious to not to shot with it.

But sure mileage may vary.
I came once at customer site and was re-attaching control cables. I was making sure they are attached tight. And I broke couple of threads just by horsing it in.

This is why I also suggested to open back and inspect it on B. It might be still possible what RF boot is leaving lens RF cam, getting seized between RF cam and lens body and RF is still horsed in all way up to infinity. Or gap between lens RF cam and lens body is so significant it doesn't feel at all.
Opening the back and checking on B is how I found that the camera RF cam was riding high when the J-12 lens was used but worked Ok with the J-8 and I -26 lens and J-3 lens.

I remember past threads of about 10 years ago on this forum, when FSU cameras and lenses still had much exposure here ( before the digital onslaught) and other members reported the same problem with the Fed 2 and J-12 lens combo.
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Old 02-01-2017   #16
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The compatibility issue of the FED 2 and J-12 is quite common. My advice would also be to check that the RF arm is riding correctly on the lens cam. If it's not, this is likely the problem. If it is sitting properly, the lens clearly has an issue - it may have been CLA-ed by someone who reassembled it incorrectly, for instance. Checking the arm would provide a simple and rapid way to rule out or confirm the source of the problem.
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Old 02-02-2017   #17
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Hi folks, many many many thanks for your comments, I adjusted rf as described in the link provided, all lenses were showing focus at 1 metre and infinity, rolled a short film and developed this evening, no need to scan to see lack of focus in neg with Jupiter 12. Will shoot with all lenses tomorrow, but I'm confident the 12 needs attention.

Mark.
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Old 02-03-2017   #18
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Hi folks, i've checked the cam operation on the jupiter 12 using "B" and all looks fine, here are three pics taken today with Jupiter 12, 8 and 11 in the same order. Fomopan 100 in Ilfosol 3 1-14 at 20C for six minutes. [IMG][/IMG]



Sorry if i've uploaded wrong. I'll get the hang of it eventually.
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Old 02-03-2017   #19
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So now, how do I sort the Jupiter 12 ???
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Old 02-03-2017   #20
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Ground glass, release cable, focusing target print, tripod.
Camera on tripod, release cable attached to the camera, back removed, ground glass attached to the back. Focusing target chart at 45 degree and at one meter. Focusing by ground glass, lens is wide open, with B hold open by release cable. Re-positioning of focus ring to match it. Re-verifying it works as it should with focus on infinity.
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Old 02-03-2017   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridgey View Post
So now, how do I sort the Jupiter 12 ???
http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbc...0distance.html

From the wonderful Kiev Survival Site

If you don't have ground glass you can use matte-finish tape instead, but make sure they are flatly attached on the film transporting rail but not the black area around film gate opening.
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Old 02-03-2017   #22
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Hi,

Regardless of the lens in use the RF cam should be in the same position for the same distance. So a micrometer could measure the distance to the lens's flange from the tube that pushes the RF cam back...

Just a thought. Regards, David
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Old 02-03-2017   #23
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Hi folks, started de-assembling jupiter 12, under focus ring i saw these pairs of marks where the grub screws have been sitting. The ones to the right are where the focus ring lines up with the stops at 1m and infinity. I wonder what the marks to the left are from. Previous setting perhaps????[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 02-03-2017   #24
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Yes, it is from previous alignment for different camera. Usually you have to do it if shims were changed or heliciod was assembled differently. Shims and helicoid assembly are affecting focusing. Very.
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Old 02-03-2017   #25
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Eureka!! I hope, forgive the erroneous terminology, but i noticed on dis-assembly that the aperture housing with the shims on, was not tight against the external housing. Hopefully, by default, i've cured the problem.

I might be stupid, but at least i'm not clever.
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