M240: The not so good, the bad and the ugly
Old 11-29-2015   #1
krötenblender
Registered User
 
krötenblender's Avatar
 
krötenblender is offline
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 758
M240: The not so good, the bad and the ugly

Proclaimer: This is not a Leica-bashing thread. But not talking about the bad things regarding Leica, about whats "wrong" about the Leica rangefinders, then Leica cannot become aware of the critique from it's user base.

What I'm talking about are the technical problems, that sometimes come with digital Ms. In another thread here I currently have the feeling, that it's very hard to accept for some people, that not everything regarding Leica is pure sunshine.

So only on the technical side (not the price, marketing or the size of the red button, ...), what are your points of critique regarding Leica digital RFs?

Mine from the other thread was the ridiculous startup time and the annoying Live View Button.

I was wrong with the LV button. In the current firmware, at least my problem was fixed: The button can now deactivated completely and LV can not activated by accident anymore. Great! (But why not from the beginning...)

My second point is not solved, though. And after a few replies, more or less saying that the problem is not really existing, I tried to make sure, that it does.

At a recent journey I had a nearly full 64 GB SD card, containing nearly 1900 RAWs. My M needed up to about 14 seconds to be ready, which made it in many situations useless.

The replies suggested, that my SD card could be the problem or that there are sample variation between cameras.

The second suggestion simply makes no sense to me. This is mass produced electronics where the variation between parts are only noticable using highly precise equipment. If this were not the case, it would mean, that Leicas production standards and quality control are below every acceptable standard.

The hint, it might be the SD card, because mine could only read only 45 MB/s, made me a little bit thinking. I had my doubts, that this could really be the problem, because the exact same card in a different camera (an Olympus E-M1) was not a problem. That camera starts up in about one second, no matter what...

Anyway, I bought a Lexar Professional 128GB 1000x card, which has a read speed of 150 MB/s and thus is more than three times as fast as my old SD card. Then I created the same situation on both cards, the old one and the new one. The same filesystem structure, the same files with the same file dates. I switched Live View on, switched the camera of and measured the time from switching on until the LV images was visible (assuming that this means, the camera is ready for the first shot). Here ist what I measured with five tries on each SD card:

Old San Disk 64 GB with 45MB/s: ~13,3s
New Lexar Professional 128GB with 150MB/s: ~12,6s

So think, what you want, but the speed of the SD card has only very minor influence on the startup time...

Some thoughts: assuming linear reads, the slow card can output nearly 600MB on data in the measured startup time, the fast card can deliver 1890MB in the measured startup time. I can not think of any reason for a camera to read and process this amount of data just to be ready for use. I think, Leica reads the filesystem structure and file list to calculate the filename of the next shot. If this is the case, there a few simple filesystem operations and reading about a few hundred kilobytes of data. What else could there be, to make the camera ready... Obviosly, there happens much more in the Leica firmware, but the time directly increases with the number of files on the card (the same cards freshly formatted in the camera start up in about 2 seconds). Say what you want, this SW design is just faulty and very bad implemented, there are obviously many bad decisions made in the architecture of the SW and the implementation. Sorry to say, but it is just that: bad SW.

Since I don't have access to the Leica-Firmware, I can not prove, that it is the fault of the SW alone. But since I have quite some experience from my profession in analyzing embedded SW (a.k.a firmware) I'm pretty sure, that the quality of that software leaves much room for improvement, to say it mildly. Again, with exactly the same cards, the Olympus E-M1 starts up in less than a second. To make it even harder for the E-M1, I also added 2000 Olympus RAWs with usual Olympus file system structure to the card: No change in start up time, still less than a second.

I have some other things to say about the camera, what I think, is badly implemented, not well thought through or just plain wrong or annoying but probably hard to fix. I think, Leica can and should do better, because I really love shooting with a rangefinder and I appreciate, that Leica still produces them. So no Leica bashing from my side, just honest critique.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-29-2015   #2
rogazilla
Level 2 Newb
 
rogazilla is offline
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: RTP, NC
Posts: 66
I think the Lexar you have is a uhs 2 card. It has additional pin in the middle of the card which em1 or my em5 support. Not the 240.

Without the middle pin I believe Lexar card only write 45mb/second. So you are back to square 1.

I tried 3 different brands myself but the only one that gives me consistent fast start up time is the Sandisk 64 extreme pro 95mb/s. I tried Lexar and transcend but unfortunately while they advertise 95mb/sec. They only do 45 on write.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-29-2015   #3
JP Owens
Registered User
 
JP Owens is offline
Join Date: Dec 2014
Age: 66
Posts: 321
Never write to an SD card intended for use in a camera with a computer. Always format the card in the camera, never in the computer. Never use a card formatted in one brand of camera in another. Only copy files off the card to the computer, never from the computer to the card.
__________________
_______

"Nothing exists beyond the edges of the frame."
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-29-2015   #4
mabelsound
Registered User
 
mabelsound's Avatar
 
mabelsound is offline
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Age: 46
Posts: 6,171
You're right that good firmware should not be stymied by a full card. But why do you have so many RAWs on your card? This seems like a strange edge case. I tend to empty my card onto the computer after each shooting session and reformat it in the camera every time. I assumed this was the norm?
__________________
flickr insta twitter
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-29-2015   #5
JP Owens
Registered User
 
JP Owens is offline
Join Date: Dec 2014
Age: 66
Posts: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabelsound View Post
You're right that good firmware should not be stymied by a full card. But why do you have so many RAWs on your card? This seems like a strange edge case. I tend to empty my card onto the computer after each shooting session and reformat it in the camera every time. I assumed this was the norm?
Yes. That has always been my system as well. I just don't take chances with SD cards. Their content is too valuable to me.
__________________
_______

"Nothing exists beyond the edges of the frame."
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-29-2015   #6
taemo
Registered User
 
taemo is offline
Join Date: Apr 2012
Age: 32
Posts: 884
over 10s boot up time is odd, my M240 takes less than 3 seconds ro be ready, even with my 64GB card almost full.
could your camera be the problem after all?
__________________
earldieta.com - flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-29-2015   #7
Pioneer
Registered User
 
Pioneer's Avatar
 
Pioneer is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Age: 63
Posts: 2,667
Hey Krotenblender, you might have to send it to Leica with your complaint to find out what is happening. Its pretty obvious that all anyone here can offer are excuses.

Since no one has admitted to having a similar problem then it would seem to be a fault of this camera.

Finally, just to be on record, I have personally copied DNG files from my computer to an SD Card which then worked just fine in my Leica M9. My M9 was even able to review those files on the display screen. I am not a computer genius nor do I work in the IT business, so I have no idea how it works...but it does.
__________________
"Your 1st 10,000 Photographs Are Your Worst"
HCBresson

"My 2nd 10,000 Are Not A Lot Better"
Dan
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-29-2015   #8
peterm1
Registered User
 
peterm1's Avatar
 
peterm1 is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,986
Card tribulations and Leica digital M cameras seem to be inextricably wedded till death they do part. Right from the get go with the M8.

I have experienced problems with mine, and there are lots of threads on the subject on the internet as well. Touch wood I have not had issues since sticking to the same cards (ones that were specifically recommended for Leica M ) and used exclusively with the M camera but previously most certainly did. I should add that I have owned or still own probably a dozen or more other digital cameras of various types and really cannot recall any card based problems with any of them apart from with a Leica M. Having said that it seems not to be frequent although it is relatively common issue experienced by users in the sense that I have heard it reported quite a lot.
  Reply With Quote

Amen
Old 11-29-2015   #9
Dektol Dan
Registered User
 
Dektol Dan is offline
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 892
Amen

Having brand new major brand SD cards fail after only one or two outings, assuming the faith and performance that you have in them and their maker's claims is misguided. At the beginning of the shoot boot the camera and then leave it on!
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-29-2015   #10
Keith
On leave from Gallifrey
 
Keith's Avatar
 
Keith is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 18,307
I've never had any desire to use those high capacity cards .... 8 gig is my limit and I'll carry as many as is needed.
__________________
---------------------------
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-29-2015   #11
photomoof
Fischli & Weiss Sculpture
 
photomoof's Avatar
 
photomoof is offline
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 786
For my cameras (Lumix and Canon) I have an assortment of crappy cards. PNY, Kingston, SanDisk Ultra II, Kingmax, 8 and 16GB, they all work fine.

Go figure.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-29-2015   #12
fad gadget
Registered User
 
fad gadget's Avatar
 
fad gadget is offline
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: vancouver, bc
Posts: 122
I'm with rogazilla.
The only card I've had good success with on my M240/246, is the Sandisk extreme pro 95mb/s.

cheers/k.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-29-2015   #13
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
 
jaapv's Avatar
 
jaapv is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hellevoetsluis,Netherlands
Posts: 8,222
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogazilla View Post
I think the Lexar you have is a uhs 2 card. It has additional pin in the middle of the card which em1 or my em5 support. Not the 240.

Without the middle pin I believe Lexar card only write 45mb/second. So you are back to square 1.

I tried 3 different brands myself but the only one that gives me consistent fast start up time is the Sandisk 64 extreme pro 95mb/s. I tried Lexar and transcend but unfortunately while they advertise 95mb/sec. They only do 45 on write.
Not my experience. Only the Lexar 1000x has the extra connections, which make no difference. I get a consistent 1.4 sec startup on Lexar Pro 16 GB, timed by stopwatch.
__________________
Jaap








jaapvphotography
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-29-2015   #14
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
 
jaapv's Avatar
 
jaapv is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hellevoetsluis,Netherlands
Posts: 8,222
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Owens View Post
Never write to an SD card intended for use in a camera with a computer. Always format the card in the camera, never in the computer. Never use a card formatted in one brand of camera in another. Only copy files off the card to the computer, never from the computer to the card.
SD Formatter, issued by the SD Association, is the software to format an SD card with. It will ensure best performance. One can format afterwards in the camera, but there is no need.
__________________
Jaap








jaapvphotography
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-29-2015   #15
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
 
jaapv's Avatar
 
jaapv is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hellevoetsluis,Netherlands
Posts: 8,222
Quote:
Originally Posted by krötenblender View Post
Proclaimer: This is not a Leica-bashing thread. But not talking about the bad things regarding Leica, about whats "wrong" about the Leica rangefinders, then Leica cannot become aware of the critique from it's user base.

What I'm talking about are the technical problems, that sometimes come with digital Ms. In another thread here I currently have the feeling, that it's very hard to accept for some people, that not everything regarding Leica is pure sunshine.

So only on the technical side (not the price, marketing or the size of the red button, ...), what are your points of critique regarding Leica digital RFs?

Mine from the other thread was the ridiculous startup time and the annoying Live View Button.

I was wrong with the LV button. In the current firmware, at least my problem was fixed: The button can now deactivated completely and LV can not activated by accident anymore. Great! (But why not from the beginning...)

My second point is not solved, though. And after a few replies, more or less saying that the problem is not really existing, I tried to make sure, that it does.

At a recent journey I had a nearly full 64 GB SD card, containing nearly 1900 RAWs. My M needed up to about 14 seconds to be ready, which made it in many situations useless.

The replies suggested, that my SD card could be the problem or that there are sample variation between cameras.

The second suggestion simply makes no sense to me. This is mass produced electronics where the variation between parts are only noticable using highly precise equipment. If this were not the case, it would mean, that Leicas production standards and quality control are below every acceptable standard.

The hint, it might be the SD card, because mine could only read only 45 MB/s, made me a little bit thinking. I had my doubts, that this could really be the problem, because the exact same card in a different camera (an Olympus E-M1) was not a problem. That camera starts up in about one second, no matter what...

Anyway, I bought a Lexar Professional 128GB 1000x card, which has a read speed of 150 MB/s and thus is more than three times as fast as my old SD card. Then I created the same situation on both cards, the old one and the new one. The same filesystem structure, the same files with the same file dates. I switched Live View on, switched the camera of and measured the time from switching on until the LV images was visible (assuming that this means, the camera is ready for the first shot). Here ist what I measured with five tries on each SD card:

Old San Disk 64 GB with 45MB/s: ~13,3s
New Lexar Professional 128GB with 150MB/s: ~12,6s

So think, what you want, but the speed of the SD card has only very minor influence on the startup time...

Some thoughts: assuming linear reads, the slow card can output nearly 600MB on data in the measured startup time, the fast card can deliver 1890MB in the measured startup time. I can not think of any reason for a camera to read and process this amount of data just to be ready for use. I think, Leica reads the filesystem structure and file list to calculate the filename of the next shot. If this is the case, there a few simple filesystem operations and reading about a few hundred kilobytes of data. What else could there be, to make the camera ready... Obviosly, there happens much more in the Leica firmware, but the time directly increases with the number of files on the card (the same cards freshly formatted in the camera start up in about 2 seconds). Say what you want, this SW design is just faulty and very bad implemented, there are obviously many bad decisions made in the architecture of the SW and the implementation. Sorry to say, but it is just that: bad SW.

Since I don't have access to the Leica-Firmware, I can not prove, that it is the fault of the SW alone. But since I have quite some experience from my profession in analyzing embedded SW (a.k.a firmware) I'm pretty sure, that the quality of that software leaves much room for improvement, to say it mildly. Again, with exactly the same cards, the Olympus E-M1 starts up in less than a second. To make it even harder for the E-M1, I also added 2000 Olympus RAWs with usual Olympus file system structure to the card: No change in start up time, still less than a second.

I have some other things to say about the camera, what I think, is badly implemented, not well thought through or just plain wrong or annoying but probably hard to fix. I think, Leica can and should do better, because I really love shooting with a rangefinder and I appreciate, that Leica still produces them. So no Leica bashing from my side, just honest critique.
If your camera takes 14 seconds to start up it is faulty and should be sent to Leica for repair, as simple as that.
__________________
Jaap








jaapvphotography
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-29-2015   #16
gavinlg
Registered User
 
gavinlg's Avatar
 
gavinlg is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Wellington NZ
Posts: 4,915
It really sounds like you deleted or changed the files on your computer without formatting in card afterwards. Every time you transfer files to the computer, format your card in camera. Otherwise stuff like this happens.
__________________
NO PRAISE
@gavinlagrange
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-29-2015   #17
ReeRay
Registered User
 
ReeRay is offline
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chonburi Thailand
Age: 71
Posts: 327
Sandisk extreme pro class 10 95 mb/s from day one in my M and never a problem. Startup is 2/3 seconds max. I'm still using the same card 2 years later and I'm a heavy shooter. Why such a high capacity card - because it's accepted as being the best for the M. I doubt I've ever shot more than 4Gb per shoot though and, like others, download and reformat the card at the day's end.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-29-2015   #18
rogazilla
Level 2 Newb
 
rogazilla is offline
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: RTP, NC
Posts: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
Not my experience. Only the Lexar 1000x has the extra connections, which make no difference. I get a consistent 1.4 sec startup on Lexar Pro 16 GB, timed by stopwatch.
Hello Jappv,

Just to clarify that to get the full 150mb/s all those extra connections have to work. Just stating the techinical part.

From my personal experience with the cards below:
1. Sandisk Extreme 16gb 45mb/s: 3 second ish
2. Sandisk Extreme Pro 64gb 95 mb/s: less than 2
3. Transcend 16gb 400x: 5 second ish
4. Transcend 32gb 600x: 3 second ish
5. Lexar 32 gb 1000x: Less than 3 but more than 2
6. Sony 64 gb 45mb/s : 5 second ish (but I only threw it into M240 in a pinch to use, it was previously in my A7 and not formatted in M240)

From the above, I definintely can feel the difference and I just stick with Sandisk Extreme Pro 95mb/s if it were up to me, I would probably get a bunch of 32gb as I dont like to keep too many pictures on a single card. I think the most I had on the Sandisk used in m240 was about 500 raws and that's not representative of the situation he is encountering. I defintely dont have experience of 1500+ raw files on any of my cards.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-30-2015   #19
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
 
jaapv's Avatar
 
jaapv is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hellevoetsluis,Netherlands
Posts: 8,222
Timed by the stopwatch (and confirmed by the head of the Human Interface Lab at Groningen University) I get a consistent 1.4 seconds on an empty and formatted Lexar 16 GB Pro 600x. I don't see a difference with the 1000x ones. I think the camera does not support the higher speed anyway.
Others get times in the order of 1.8 or even 2.0, there seems to be a tolerance span here. But on an 8 or 16 GB card the camera should fire the shot within 2 secs of turning on.

Testing method:

Focus the camera (on a tripod or table top) on a computer screen showing a stopwatch app.
Lock the release button down with a cable release.
One hand switches the camera on, the other hits the space bar synchronously.
The camera takes the shot showing the exact time elapsed.
Repeat ten times, discard any obviously mistimed shots and average.
__________________
Jaap








jaapvphotography
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-30-2015   #20
borge
Registered User
 
borge is offline
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 154
I dont understand how hard it is to do the following:

1. Get a Sandisk Extreme Pro SDXC card - 64GB in size (95MB/s both read and write).
2. Format the card with the SDFormatter application (google it, its free).
3. Insert the card in the camera. DO NOT FORMAT THE CARD IN THE CAMERA.
4. Shoot images. Import them to Lightroom. After you have imported the images, simply delete the files off the card rather than formatting it. Insert the card into the camera again and use it...

This results in a startup time of about 1 second, consistantly, across all firmware versions, even with old and new cards (of the same type)... This is very very widely known and documented on many forums... But still,for some reason, people run out buying other cards and expect things to work just as good, when Leica themselves recommend these specific cards for the M240 platform.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-30-2015   #21
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NYC
Age: 43
Posts: 17,802
Quote:
Originally Posted by borge View Post
I dont understand how hard it is to do the following:

1. Get a Sandisk Extreme Pro SDXC card - 64GB in size (95MB/s both read and write).
2. Format the card with the SDFormatter application (google it, its free).
3. Insert the card in the camera. DO NOT FORMAT THE CARD IN THE CAMERA.
Part #2 shouldn't be necessary... that's probably what turns people off.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-30-2015   #22
Lss
Registered User
 
Lss is offline
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,734
I have never used the M typ 240, so I make no claims about how that camera works.

I think I live in a different world of memory cards. Any digital camera I have ever tried and any other device that uses memory cards (and the total is several dozen) just works whatever card I throw at it (*). This includes the Leica M8, which has never shown any issues with any SD card under any circumstance. I use old and cheap ones on this one, as it is an old and expensive camera and that's what the spec says. I also use my memory cards as regular mass storage cards, whenever I need to transfer files offline. And continue using them in camera regardless of this. It all works without any issues because it is supposed to work like that. This is not magic.

The menu on my NEX-5N currently cannot be accessed. I delete files in camera to gain space. You guessed it, no issues in months of doing this.

(*) I have had corrupted/lost images on a Canon DSLR years ago. The card was pretty new, bought from a reputable seller, formatted in camera before use the very same day, and it had only been used in that one camera apart from downloading shots from previous shoots. I tossed the card away. The issue may have been the camera, too, but it was likely a bad card.
__________________
Lasse
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-30-2015   #23
rogazilla
Level 2 Newb
 
rogazilla is offline
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: RTP, NC
Posts: 66
I think at the end of the day. M240 is what it is. We can discuss how the firmware is suppose to be built and how other camera don't have any memory card problem.

At the end of the day, the one that's tried and true is the Sandisk 95mb/s.

To date, all the cards I use I format in camera only. I import through lightroom and put the card back into camera and I format in camera. I have not had any trouble with any of my cards and it hasnt slowed down. YMMV.

I think in the end of the day if some normal procedures are used and multiple cards are tested. maybe something is wrong with OP's camera and should probably be looked at.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-30-2015   #24
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
 
jaapv's Avatar
 
jaapv is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hellevoetsluis,Netherlands
Posts: 8,222
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Part #2 shouldn't be necessary... that's probably what turns people off.
SD Formatter is quite straightforward. I didn't find it neccessary with new cards, an in-camera format was just fine. Older cards, with corrupted areas benefit.
__________________
Jaap








jaapvphotography
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-30-2015   #25
willie_901
Registered User
 
willie_901's Avatar
 
willie_901 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,469
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Owens View Post
Never write to an SD card intended for use in a camera with a computer. Always format the card in the camera, never in the computer. Never use a card formatted in one brand of camera in another. Only copy files off the card to the computer, never from the computer to the card.
This is excellent preventative advice. While it is possible to do otherwise without consequence, following this advice eliminates of certain types of SD card problems.
__________________
"Perspective is governed by where you stand – object size and the angle of view included in the picture is determined by focal length." H.S. Newcombe

williamchuttonjr.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-30-2015   #26
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
 
jaapv's Avatar
 
jaapv is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hellevoetsluis,Netherlands
Posts: 8,222
And lock the card before downloading into the computer.
__________________
Jaap








jaapvphotography
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-30-2015   #27
Vince Lupo
Registered User
 
Vince Lupo's Avatar
 
Vince Lupo is offline
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Baltimore, MD, USA; Toronto, Ont, Canada
Posts: 3,978
Other thing you should not do is to work on a photo directly from the card -- download the photo from the card onto the computer, then work on it. If you double-click on an image on the card and work on it in say, PhotoShop, when you put the card back into the camera and then try to 'playback' the images, what you will get when you come to that particular image is not the image, but a black screen with the filename (see below), plus it will take forever to go from the previous photo to that one in playback. Like the issue I was having by using slower cards, I thought it was a problem with the camera. Once I figured it out, I made sure to download a given photo first before I worked on it in the computer.

  Reply With Quote

Old 11-30-2015   #28
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
 
jaapv's Avatar
 
jaapv is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hellevoetsluis,Netherlands
Posts: 8,222
Not only that, but the camera checks the card on startup. If it comes across what it considers corrupted data or file structures, the startup will take ages.
__________________
Jaap








jaapvphotography
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-30-2015   #29
Vince Lupo
Registered User
 
Vince Lupo's Avatar
 
Vince Lupo is offline
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Baltimore, MD, USA; Toronto, Ont, Canada
Posts: 3,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
Not only that, but the camera checks the card on startup. If it comes across what it considers corrupted data or file structures, the startup will take ages.
Wonder if the OP is 'working' on photos directly from the card? If so, then that could indeed be part of the issue.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-01-2015   #30
willie_901
Registered User
 
willie_901's Avatar
 
willie_901 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,469
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
And lock the card before downloading into the computer.
Yes, yes, yes!
__________________
"Perspective is governed by where you stand – object size and the angle of view included in the picture is determined by focal length." H.S. Newcombe

williamchuttonjr.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-01-2015   #31
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NYC
Age: 43
Posts: 17,802
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
SD Formatter is quite straightforward. I didn't find it neccessary with new cards, an in-camera format was just fine. Older cards, with corrupted areas benefit.
Good to know about the older cards tip. I'm not saying it isn't straight forward, I was just saying that it is generally unnecessary with any other camera.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-03-2015   #32
JPSuisse
Registered User
 
JPSuisse's Avatar
 
JPSuisse is offline
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 419
Hi Krötenblender!

I think you may be hitting on my problem with Leica electronics. They are simply not as robust as I would expect for whatever reason.

Long story short, I sent my m8 to Leica Germany 3 times with a very rare but occasional intermittant lock-up with flashing red light. Solms could never find the problem, even though I told them the conditions under which it happened. Finally, I sent the camera to Leica US. They immediately recognized it a component failure and fixed it for free even though out of warranty because I had made the first complaint 3 years earlier. Since then the m8 has really been perfect.

You might have a similar problem that a component is just not in tolerance and causing strange behavior that is not a clear defect. Start up time is not "part of the specification." I know a couple other owners who have had such quirky behavior. Anyway, I didn't loose many pictures over the time, and thanks to Leica US the problem got caught. Send back now so it is at least documented before the problem causes a serious failure.

Cheers, John
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-06-2015   #33
krötenblender
Registered User
 
krötenblender's Avatar
 
krötenblender is offline
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 758
I will reply to some of the points made in the thread here and summarize them in one post:

I don't do any editing in camera or on SD card ever. All pictures are first imported to my computers hard-disk and then further processed. My computer is never allowed to write to SD cards.

Write speed is not important at startup time for the camera. I get the same results in different cameras with write protected cards. The M, switched to live view, only checks at the very end of the startup if the card is writable and displays a warning.

The Lexar Professional SDXC-II 128GB has the extra line of contacts, that are not used by the M, but without using the faster interface, I found statements, that it is still able to give a reading speed of 104MB/s, which is two and a half times faster than the card, with wich I first experienced the long startup time.

However, since some insist, that only with very special cards, formatted with only a very special formatting program (only exactly 42 minutes after full moon in leap years while standing on my head...), I also did that: a new Transcend (I'm sure, someone will say, that Transcend is totally wrong) 64GB SDXC-I with 60MB/s WRITE speed and even much faster read formatted with the highly recommended SD-Formatter program: All the same startup time of nearly 13 seconds.

Some replies also ignore the precondition, that I'm talking about: The card has nearly 2000 RAW images on it and also that many jpegs. Removing half of the images also reduces startup time significantly, but not by half, so there is an offset. Probably the about 1.4s that one can get with a fresh formatted empty card.

I also wrote to the german Leica customer service, but besides an automatic robot-answer I did not get any reply, yet. Maybe, they are too busy right now or they simply don't see any problem with 12-14s startup time, when the card has that many RAW on it.

What does seem to get recognized, is that I don't only think, that 13 seconds startup time are unacceptable. I think, there are more flaws than that. Probably the 13s don't even break the internal SW specification of the M. But then it is the spec, that is flawed. All SD cards I tried, were also tried in a Olympus E-M1 with the same preconditions. With that camera, the startup time simply were constantly fast, no matter how many pictures, if formatted in camera or not or written with the computer or not. That camera is always quickly ready. And this is im my picture a big flaw in the firmware from Leica. Also to say, the cards only work fast and good, when formatted not in camera but with a special external program is a hint of a flawed firmware. A camera should be able to format a card on their own correctly. Otherwise the firmware IS FLAWED.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-06-2015   #34
robert blu
quiet photographer
 
robert blu's Avatar
 
robert blu is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Italy
Age: 68
Posts: 4,526
Quote:
Originally Posted by krötenblender View Post
...I also wrote to the german Leica customer service, but besides an automatic robot-answer I did not get any reply, yet ...
This is very scaring...and unacceptable in my view...something can go wrong in a sophisticated product unfortunately but Customer Care should do what is supposed to do...

robert
__________________
Remember: today is the Day !
from Ruth Bernhard recipe for a long and happy life


my quiet photographer's blog


My RFF photos and my albums on RFF
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-06-2015   #35
krötenblender
Registered User
 
krötenblender's Avatar
 
krötenblender is offline
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert blu View Post
This is very scaring...and unacceptable in my view...something can go wrong in a sophisticated product unfortunately but Customer Care should do what is supposed to do...
It's four days now. Since I'm not in any pro-service contract with Leica, I can wait another few day. My guess anyway is, that they will tell me, that under the described preconditions, the startup time is normal behavior.
  Reply With Quote

Old 4 Weeks Ago   #36
theblackbrick
Registered User
 
theblackbrick's Avatar
 
theblackbrick is offline
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: San Francisco, CA ... For now...
Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by borge View Post
I dont understand how hard it is to do the following:

1. Get a Sandisk Extreme Pro SDXC card - 64GB in size (95MB/s both read and write).
2. Format the card with the SDFormatter application (google it, its free).
3. Insert the card in the camera. DO NOT FORMAT THE CARD IN THE CAMERA.
4. Shoot images. Import them to Lightroom. After you have imported the images, simply delete the files off the card rather than formatting it. Insert the card into the camera again and use it...

This results in a startup time of about 1 second, consistently, across all firmware versions, even with old and new cards (of the same type)... This is very very widely known and documented on many forums... But still,for some reason, people run out buying other cards and expect things to work just as good, when Leica themselves recommend these specific cards for the M240 platform.

This is freaking me out!
1.- With pretty much any other camera in the market you can use any brand, capacity, and speed memory card you want (unless the camera can't use a brand new type of memory card or the card exceed the capacity the camera can handle). But basically you should be able to buy a "standard" card and use it. Depending card and camera it might be faster or slower ... But 14 seconds no.
2.- Since the beginning of times (well not really, but you'll get the point), cameras have formated their memory cards. Actually was always the recommended procedure by the camera makers.
Now let's say I'm on a trip. I don't bring my 15" mac book pro with me. I'm there to travel and see places and people. "Oh my god!!! I lost the little pouch where I had my spare memory cards!!! No problem, I'll go to any electronics store, or Walmart or Walgreens and get a memory card to keep going on my trip. Oh! But I don't have a laptop to format my card!"
REALLY?!?!?! Cards NEVER should be depending in having a computer with you to format them. Insert in the camera, format, and go. That is the main reason I didn't pull the trigger on the MD. I love that camera, but for some things (other than downloading and procesing) it makes me be attached to a computer.
So if what you are saying it is true and that is what Leica recommends ... Epic failure Leica!!! Epic!
3.- Read #2
4.- i have never deleted the files from any memory card, unless i did it by mistake, but never on purpose. Always after done with my importing I put the card in my card case in the side of cards ready to use. Whenever I'm on the field and need a new card, grab one from the "ready to use" side of the card case, format, keep shooting. Done that my whole life with many different camera models and many different brands (never Leica tho). All my cameras started in the time they supposed to start and never had a problem with a card, let's knock on wood.
__________________
http://theblackbrick.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 4 Weeks Ago   #37
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 3,553
Don't get freaked out. I just format the cards in my Ms. Never have used a computer to do that. Never have had any issues. To delete, I just reformat, again in the camera.
I use whatever SanDisk card costco sells...
  Reply With Quote

Old 4 Weeks Ago   #38
Godfrey
somewhat colored
 
Godfrey's Avatar
 
Godfrey is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,664
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblackbrick View Post
This is freaking me out!
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Don't get freaked out. I just format the cards in my Ms. Never have used a computer to do that. Never have had any issues. To delete, I just reformat, again in the camera.
I use whatever SanDisk card costco sells...
Yes, using SDCardformatter to prep cards prior to use, I found a miniscule improvement in performance. Not much, certainly not enough to worry about. I have tossed in Transcend, Sandisk, Sony, HP, and Lexus cards without thinking about it.

I've read about a dozen freaky stories on the net of problems with the M8, M9, M typ 240, etc, about cards, almost every week. Yet, most of the folks I know who use these cameras extensively have never had a single problem, and never cared what cards they shoved in.

I guess the fact that most of them don't read the various forums makes them fearless...

G
  Reply With Quote

Old 4 Weeks Ago   #39
Ronald M
Registered User
 
Ronald M is offline
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,031
What irritates me is lack of port for connection to computer.

Waiting for my M9 sensor to go bad

If the lenses were not so good, I would not buy the camera

Waiting months on end for service
  Reply With Quote

Old 4 Weeks Ago   #40
tom.w.bn
Registered User
 
tom.w.bn is offline
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblackbrick View Post
This is freaking me out!
Why that? The format-procedure stated above is for the super cautious people and that's not me.
I always format a card in the camera and never had a problem with M8, M9 and M240 in recent years. I even used cards that were formatted in other cameras (different brand) with raw files from that camera on it without any problem.

But I admit that I never ever had 2000 images on one card.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:07.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.