Ouch! Cost of Swapping in a New Sensor on my M9
Old 03-14-2014   #1
tstermitz
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Ouch! Cost of Swapping in a New Sensor on my M9

Let's just say that for the price I could get a FF digital camera from one of the other players. And that's more money than I have at the moment.

I sent my M9 in for CLA, plus fix a red-line, plus some sensor dirt that I couldn't get rid of, and the report back was that the sensor was scratched. Yeah, I tried to clean it, but not vigorously, and not in a way that would cause a scratch. You know, swipe across the sensor, not jab at it randomly.

I guess, if I can get the money together, I'll get back an almost new camera.
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Old 03-14-2014   #2
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Painful considering the "FF digital from one of the other players" would have better sensor performance as well.
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Old 03-14-2014   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstermitz View Post
Let's just say that for the price I could get a FF digital camera from one of the other players. And that's more money than I have at the moment.

I sent my M9 in for CLA, plus fix a red-line, plus some sensor dirt that I couldn't get rid of, and the report back was that the sensor was scratched. Yeah, I tried to clean it, but not vigorously, and not in a way that would cause a scratch. You know, swipe across the sensor, not jab at it randomly.

I guess, if I can get the money together, I'll get back an almost new camera.
Please give us the price quote you got, and from where.

Others will eventually need to replace their sensors too.

Stephen
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Old 03-14-2014   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstermitz View Post
Let's just say that for the price I could get a FF digital camera from one of the other players. And that's more money than I have at the moment.

I sent my M9 in for CLA, plus fix a red-line, plus some sensor dirt that I couldn't get rid of, and the report back was that the sensor was scratched. Yeah, I tried to clean it, but not vigorously, and not in a way that would cause a scratch. You know, swipe across the sensor, not jab at it randomly.

I guess, if I can get the money together, I'll get back an almost new camera.
That's harsh news, and will definitely have some effect on potential buyers on the used market once the details have been confirmed.

For sensor cleaning, I'd really recommend the Arctic Butterfly and vigorous air blowing in order to get out as many of the dust particles as possible before any "swipes" are applied to the sensor glass itself.

Dust cleaning used to drive me crazy until I got one of those.
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Old 03-14-2014   #5
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I have limited my own cleaning of the M9 sensor to the air blower. Once a year I take the camera to a trusted professional who has worked with several of my cameras to have the sensor completely cleaned. So far it has worked and I am not enthused with the idea of having to replace the sensor. I will say however that it is nice to know that service is available if the need arises.
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Old 03-15-2014   #6
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The repair is from Leica, and it does include the CLA. I'm with Pioneer; In the future I'll only blow the dust of, and seek professional cleaning. It is too bad the sensor has no dust shake, and that the cover is so fragile.

The thing is I really like the M9, and don't think that much of handling on the M240. The M9 sensor is great, aside from high ISO. The M240 was a first and incomplete cut at adding the features present from the better Japanese mirror less cameras. A good rule of thumb is to skip generations.

Leica's pricing model is high-end. I can accept that on the lenses, but not for electronic gear that depreciates.
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Old 03-15-2014   #7
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Jut curious... did Leica mention a time-frame for the replacement process?
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Old 03-15-2014   #8
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wow that's sad news. The Leica digital Modul R could even be easily cleaned with a micro fibre wipe by hand!!!
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Old 03-15-2014   #9
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I use Visible Dust swabs on the D4 sensor and no probs at all. Just make a good clean, even swipe. and enough fluid on the swab
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Digital rot and the Digital M horror!
Old 03-15-2014   #10
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Digital rot and the Digital M horror!

I feel for you! I have an M8 with a similar problem and decided its life as a paperweight makes better sense. I am an X Pro-1 shooter now but have a huge collection of Leica M glass crying for a new camera body. I really wish Leica went with the camera for life concept when the M8 first came out. They did not. What would have been the best solution in my mind would be a digital back solution for the film M's. Leica has no interest in this. If someone made a removable sensor module with the electronics contained in the camera back as well as a removable bottom grip for $3000 or so I would buy it without hesitation. It is being done with medium and large format, and should not be a problem with smaller film cameras. Leica building a body to last 100 years but electronics that are only good for a few years makes no sense at all.
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http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141052
Old 03-15-2014   #11
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http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141052

Please give us the exact price of sensor replacement?

Leica always charged a premium.
I needed a lens aperture blades derusted.
It had never been in a moist climate.
Where I lived was arid and dry,no humidity.
Strangely Both Nikon and Pentax without seeing the lens, said
"Fault in manufacture.It would be repaired even out of guarantee".
A private technician cleaned it off, it never re-appeared.
The cost on 1/100 of Leica.
Today with electronics, there are no good ways..
Good Luck.
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Old 03-15-2014   #12
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Mine is being replaced for free but it is taking a long time. And who knows next time.
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Old 03-15-2014   #13
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Sorry to hear about the repair to your Leica.

When I was in the thick of it, doing lots of events and other photography, I decided to invest in several camera bodies and not change lenses. Way back then, new cameras were out it seemed like every 6 months or so! What I did was buy the old model, still new, at a reduced price.

Of course, for me, things happen that could get lost during changing of lenses at most events. In a hurry things/mistakes can also happen! A side benefit to this has been zero repairs and no dust on sensors.

Even when I was film based I did the same thing.

With Leica, this would be expensive, but something to consider. You could have a second body that's lost value because of new versions.

I have a 10 year old Canon 20D that has taken quite a few photographs but still works just fine. It's in my Pelican case just in case. I still use the original battery that came with the camera!

My mentor nicknamed me "cheapie." Ha!

Thought I would let you know what I used to do to offer an idea to help.
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Old 03-16-2014   #14
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Cost $2450 for sensor, all adjustments, and replace the vulcanite. Not sure why the latter was in there, as there isn't a problem with the covering.

One rationalization, is that for $2450, I get a (basically) new Leica M9, which is a pretty good price for an M9.

I think Bill Clark's suggestion is pretty good: Don't change lenses. Not so expensive if I sell my 24mm Elmarit to fund the repair and buy a Fuji 100s, even though I can't bring myself to sell my Summicron 35mm ASPH. But, going down that path, I'm not sure I would choose the 50mm as the lens of choice. That leaves my 90mm Elmarit-M, which I don't use all that much, but I really I really like the images it gives me.

Maybe I end up with one lens and one camera.

Or, maybe choose the Ricoh GR with its 28mm view point instead of the Fuji.
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Old 03-16-2014   #15
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Perhaps access to the sensor in the process of replacement requires replacing the vulcanite. But I bet that the vulcanite replacement is exorbitantly expensive. You might as well see if they can replace the sensor and leave the re-covering job to you. A satisfactory replacement skin can be had from Aki-Asahi for very little money.




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Cost $2450 for sensor, all adjustments, and replace the vulcanite. Not sure why the latter was in there, as there isn't a problem with the covering.
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Old 03-16-2014   #16
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That's a lot of coin…how exactly was the scratch caused ? I can't see how a commercially made sensor swab could do this. Also, do you see anything in your photos that could be the result of the scratch ? I'd hold off with giving them the go ahead until you feel comfortable with the answers. fwiw, I've never heard of ANYONE scratching their sensors. None. ymmv
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Old 03-17-2014   #17
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That's a lot of coin…how exactly was the scratch caused ? I can't see how a commercially made sensor swab could do this. Also, do you see anything in your photos that could be the result of the scratch ? I'd hold off with giving them the go ahead until you feel comfortable with the answers. fwiw, I've never heard of ANYONE scratching their sensors. None. ymmv
If what the OP thought was dust on the sensor was actually sand, then using a swab could scratch the surface of the cover glass.
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Old 03-17-2014   #18
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If what the OP thought was dust on the sensor was actually sand, then using a swab could scratch the surface of the cover glass.
That's probably why we normally use air, then fine and clean brush followed by swabs to clean it up. Oh well, but who is perfect....?
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Old 03-17-2014   #19
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I'll call them to clarify the full expense. Like I said, I never cleaned the sensor with force, and the "scratch" is in a random direction, not along the axis of cleaning. I believe them when they call it a scratch, because I really couldn't clean it off. But, I can't imagine how it happened as I never dropped anything on the sensor or had the lenses off except for frequently swapping them and occasionally swabbing the sensor.

The only consolation is that I receive back a factory-serviced, M9 much cheaper than replacing it.

I will be super careful in the future.
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Old 03-17-2014   #20
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Cost $2450 for sensor, all adjustments, and replace the vulcanite. Not sure why the latter was in there, as there isn't a problem with the covering.

Complete BS!
F.O. Leica!

The least efficient and most irresponsible company in photography.
Leicas relevance is completely in the rearview.

I would not give them a penny if I was you.
Sorry to bust the mood but... this is just crap... $2500 for a sensor... balls!
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Old 03-17-2014   #21
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Leica replaces the sensors with the flaking problem for free. Due to the scratch they need to charge you, but they quoted me 1000$ in last December. However, they replaced it for free after they realized the sensor was delaminating.
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Old 03-17-2014   #22
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Quote:
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Cost $2450 for sensor, all adjustments, and replace the vulcanite. Not sure why the latter was in there, as there isn't a problem with the covering.
They have to remove the covering to open up the camera. A lot of the screws are under the leather. It's the same for anyone who has a custom cover and sends their Leica in for shutter service. Leica takes off your pretty blue calf skin cover and replaces it with their factory standard. It just has to be done.

The covering isn't hard to take off. In fact it's pretty easy. The thing is it's difficult to remove in one piece. The glue that holds it on is stronger than the leather itself. Like peeling a shipping label from a box. The nice thing is unlike a lot of other companies, to Leica replacing the cover doesn't void the warranty.
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Old 03-17-2014   #23
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It seems expensive but the cameras are expensive. Compared to a D800 or 5d3 I bet a lot of those are "totaled" when it comes to repairs because $2000 is as much as the camera is worth. Thomas Hogan wrote that he saw two D800s end up being trashed after minor falls bent the lens mount, requiring a new chassis and all the labor to move and test all the components. It wasn't worth it. At least an M9 is worth fixing.
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Old 04-19-2014   #24
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Leica NJ fixed and returned my M9. Charged me "only" $1,900.

As I said, that is cheaper than a new (used) M9. And, I really like the M9. Definitely over the M240, which for the price should never have been released without an EVF as good or better than the Olympus or Sony. Actually, it is about the Leica lenses. It does seem to me that while Leica can justify the high price of the lenses, they should sell the camera for much less. Either that or offer an upgrade program... by swapping the internals or the whole camera.

Looking at focus with my 50mm Lux at f/1.4, the Rangefinder is spot on. Well, you do have to match up the rangefinder spot very carefully, to get within a half inch at 6 feet.

I received very courteous service and response. Returned well before their estimate.

Will be putting my M6 and some of my Pentax lenses up for sale soon.
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Old 04-19-2014   #25
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The cost (only 1/7 of a new body.) and replacement time-frame seems reasonable to me.

Thanks for the update.
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Old 04-19-2014   #26
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This points up why I am unlikely to ever be able to justify owning a digital Leica M body. Even if I could hack the price of admission, if something ever required serious repair I would be screwed. At least with my M6 Don could get it going again for a few hundred.

This is also why I pine for a FF Fuji X body that has a well integrated M adapter with a six bit reader that allows embedding of lens data in the EXIF for later processing. It is likely to be the only way I can ever afford a direct view FF platform for my M lenses.
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Old 06-17-2014   #27
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A scratch on the sensor? That is what insurance companies are for....
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Old 06-17-2014   #28
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A scratch on the sensor? That is what insurance companies are for....
Agreed. $2450 and I'd be filing a claim the next day.
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Old 06-17-2014   #29
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Won't it be the filter glass in front of the sensor that got scratched and not the sensor itself?
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Old 06-17-2014   #30
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Won't it be the filter glass in front of the sensor that got scratched and not the sensor itself?
Yes. But if they aren't doing something very different than all other sensor manufacturers, the cover is glued/welded onto the sensor assembly before the latter ever leaves the cleanroom. Replacing it without adding even more dust means removing the sensor from the body and PCB in a environment with all tools required for chip fabrication and analysis - at which point the cost will exceed that for a module replacement...
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Old 06-18-2014   #31
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Raid is about to go through this.......

I bought mine, fresh from rebuild in NJ, new sensor etc. , for 3500 in Jan 14. It appeared new. 5k clicks I think. It's been fantastic. But you never know......LOL

I blow it out once a week or so, because I do get dust I have to remove from the skies in LR. So far I have not dared a wet clean, but it's going to need one.

I use it a lot in the backcountry, with numerous lenses, and sometimes there can be dust in the air.


photo (2) by unoh7, on Flickr

1900 sounds a bit rich. 600 seems more like it.
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Old 06-18-2014   #32
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Yes. But if they aren't doing something very different than all other sensor manufacturers, the cover is glued/welded onto the sensor assembly before the latter ever leaves the cleanroom. Replacing it without adding even more dust means removing the sensor from the body and PCB in a environment with all tools required for chip fabrication and analysis - at which point the cost will exceed that for a module replacement...
I'm surprised. There seem to be a few companies that switch the filter for broad spectrum/IR/etc. use, normally for quite a modest sum. I doubt there are many if any people doing IR conversion for digital Leicas, but switching the filter without replacing the sensors seems a pretty standard and inexpensive process for most digital cameras.
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Old 06-18-2014   #33
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I bought a used one with warranty for 2800$ recently
so the discount price of 1900$ is pretty high.
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Old 06-18-2014   #34
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I'm surprised. There seem to be a few companies that switch the filter for broad spectrum/IR/etc. use, normally for quite a modest sum. I doubt there are many if any people doing IR conversion for digital Leicas, but switching the filter without replacing the sensors seems a pretty standard and inexpensive process for most digital cameras.
That is a operation where the workshops can get away with a little damage - compared to infrared film, even a sensor with a few blemishes is a significant improvement. I don't think people would accept a M9 with a little dust and some dead pixels, even if that means they could get that repair for $500.
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Old 06-18-2014   #35
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My M9 is insured. I wonder if it covers the replacement of a sensor? Good idea.
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Old 06-18-2014   #36
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It seems expensive but the cameras are expensive. Compared to a D800 or 5d3 I bet a lot of those are "totaled" when it comes to repairs because $2000 is as much as the camera is worth. Thomas Hogan wrote that he saw two D800s end up being trashed after minor falls bent the lens mount, requiring a new chassis and all the labor to move and test all the components. It wasn't worth it. At least an M9 is worth fixing.
I understand the reasoning here but IMHO the only reason I would repair the M9 is because I overpaid to own the M9 to start with. It might serve me better as a business right off at this point. These digital cameras are no more than a computer with a lens & as fast as computers evolve, they are obsolete when they hit the shelf to begin sales.
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Old 06-18-2014   #37
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If Leica offered low cost sensor replacement, wouldn't that be a tacit confession that the high price of a Leica camera is essentially an admission price?
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Old 06-18-2014   #38
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I don't own any electronic Leicas. All film, manual, no light meter.

Don't think I will buy any.

However, I will say that I have Canon digital SLR's. I still use a 20D that I bought in 2004 and it still works just fine. It has taken quite a few photos.
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Old 06-18-2014   #39
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Roger Cicala reports the M9 has a thin cover glass (0.8 mm). This is what would be damaged by a scratch. Whether or not the cover glass can be replaced without swapping the entire sensor assembly is another matter.
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