Old 03-25-2014   #81
Lss
Registered User
 
Lss is offline
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcsang View Post
So, has anyone had any official confirmation from Leica on this?
It does not appear there is any official information available.
__________________
Lasse
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #82
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
 
dcsang's Avatar
 
dcsang is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto Canada
Age: 51
Posts: 4,707
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lss View Post
It does not appear there is any official information available.
So all this hand wringing and brow furrowing por nada?

I'm sure there's something to the rumor/post - I mean, after all, as Keith had mentioned, how long did people expect those Kodak sensors to remain "available" after Kodak's demise?

Regardless, it would be interesting to get something, or anything, "official", even if it's via email from Leica.

Cheers,
Dave
__________________
I own a Leica and I am NOT a dentist (I don't even portray one on TV!!!)

I have an idea what I'm looking for but it only becomes real once I see it - Constantine Manos

ITS THE MAGIC I SEE IN THE Light, Texture, & Tone
that Intoxicates Me - Helen Hill

My Flickr - it's where I post my RF and P&S shtuff
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #83
mani
Registered User
 
mani is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcsang View Post
So all this hand wringing and brow furrowing por nada?
Just for the record, this was exactly the same scenario for the LCDs a couple years ago. IIRC it started with a couple of people mentioning the exchange offer on LUF and was followed by the usual vicious attacks until Stefan Daniel came out with an official admission by posting on the forum there.

I have no idea if the hand-wringing is as hilariously unnecessary as you suggest, but it could be a long wait if you're expecting Leica's official announcement.

Did a quick search on LUF and found what I recall was the first mention of the exchange scheme:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...32-post15.html

It took over three weeks before Stefan Daniel confirmed the scheme on the forum there.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #84
hepcat
Former PH, USN
 
hepcat's Avatar
 
hepcat is offline
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Eastern Iowa
Age: 62
Posts: 1,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post
These are inappropriate analogies because no-one is expecting to get anything for free; customers are hoping their cameras can be fixed for a reasonable and proportionate amount of money (less than five years after that camera was discontinued).

As for the figures you quote, at this stage I have no idea whether they are realistic or not - I made-up some nonsense numbers for fictional Mercedes cars and you've taken one example posted in the thread and extrapolated from another figure to make it look like an extremely generous policy. Two points:

- the actual exchange amounts for M8s varies considerably, I've read and heard of widely differing amounts depending on all sorts of factors. One generous example in this thread isn't necessarily representative - and that ad hoc inconsistency is part of the problem with the whole exchange scheme.

Anyway I'm not going to pursue this discussion. My own disillusion with Leica's digital cameras and the entire commodity direction in which Leica is headed meant that I sold my digital Leicas and the majority of M lenses over the last couple years. It's not my fight anymore, and I'm definitely not going to go through the antipathy and trolling that seems inevitably to always accompany these sorts of discussions.
Mani, I'm with you on much of this, but the facts are that the sensors were a limited-run item originally, the manufacturer is out of business, and the supply is exhausted. I don't know what folks expect. The offer to replace the camera at a discount, and in some cases a deep discount, seems to me to be a pretty significant policy.

I've had some experience with this exact sort of issue in another area: bikes. I bought a high-end, aluminum frame, dual-suspension mountain bike in 1997. It came with a manufacturer's lifetime warranty. I have dutifully maintained the warranty and sales receipt all these years. In 2012 I discovered that the frame had cracked. I called the local store that carries that brand and took it in for the warranty replacement. They called the manufacturer who said "It's HOW old? We're not going to honor that!!! We'll sell him a "crash frame" at 15% off list." Obviously, I'm not buying that company's products again...

Of course, that's not the only poor warranty experience I've ever had, but I think discounting a new product up to 60% to replace an out-of-production and out-of-warranty is an amazing offer. I don't see how you can see it any other way.

And again, if you don't see value in Leica, there's not problem there. Don't buy them again... but I don't see how attacking my choice to see value in the product is valid in any way.

For example, I bought the Fuji X-Pro1 a couple of years ago and used it for eight months. I made about 5,000 exposures with it. It is, in MY opinion, the biggest waste of engineering time and the worst use of $2,000 I'd ever spent. The camera missed focus on one shoot two out of three times while showing a focus confirmation light, and you can't focus the camera manually using the OVF. For me those are deal-breakers. I'm happy to discuss the issues I had with it for the purpose of letting other people buy it knowing what my experience was, but I don't presume to believe that Fuji as a company was trying to swindle me, is malevolent in any way, or that anyone else who buys the product is either foolish or blind. Nor am i suggesting that the product is junk. It has some limitations that didn't work out for me. That's it. And talk about depreciation!!! The $1800 MSRP X-Pro1 body has lost 2/3 of its value in two years, being widely availalbe used for around $600 now.

All products and all manufacturers suffer from defects, parts shortages, and end-of-life issues. In this case is it solely the amount of cash that one puts into these cameras that is causing so much commotion? Is there really that kind of sense of entitlement... "because I spent $X I should get...?" I don't see any other explanation.

I just don't understand the rancor and angst these issues generate for people who don't even own the equipment, and why it seems to be necessary for folks to condemn the product for merely having a natural lifespan, and the company for making what amounts to a pretty good solution to an otherwise unsolvable problem.
__________________
Leicas and lenses

Find me on the web...
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #85
mani
Registered User
 
mani is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by hepcat View Post
I just don't understand the rancor and angst these issues generate for people who don't even own the equipment, and why it seems to be necessary for folks to condemn the product for merely having a natural lifespan, and the company for making what amounts to a pretty good solution to an otherwise unsolvable problem.
I'm certainly not angry and I'm not condemning anyone's choices, in any way whatsoever (not sure where you got that idea??). I just felt it was unfair to characterize people's responses as though they were expecting a free fix for their cameras in the event they went wrong, when all they might want is to be able to service and maintain those cameras for a reasonable time.

A lot of people might be angry because they may have bought a Leica hoping it would be a long-term camera for them, rather than the standard upgrade treadmill of cheaper brands. I guess they'll be hoping that nothing goes wrong, but the uncertainty is there - and especially worrying for those who can't afford to drop three or four thousand on a totally new camera, when their LCD stops functioning or their sensor craps out.

In other news, not really sure why a lot of people are blaming Kodak for Leica's failure to purchase enough sensors to maintain the cameras for ten years either? I guess blaming Kodak for pretty much everything is an easy target. They didn't even own Truesense back when the M8 was the current model.

Anyway, let's all hold our breath and wait for the official announcement (or denial). It should come along in under a month or so, if we're lucky.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #86
kbg32
neo-romanticist
 
kbg32's Avatar
 
kbg32 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 5,565
I would certainly think that it would be in Leitz's best interest to keep this quiet. If something should go wrong with your M8, you send it for repair, and Leitz says it can't be fixed, but offers you at a very attractive discount, a M9, M-E, or a M-240, would you willingly refuse? Yes, I know in the end you will be spending more money than on a replacement sensor. But you are getting an item that theoretically has a longer lifespan and still can be repaired for the foreseeable future.
__________________
Keith

http://keithgoldstein.me/
Keith’s Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #87
hepcat
Former PH, USN
 
hepcat's Avatar
 
hepcat is offline
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Eastern Iowa
Age: 62
Posts: 1,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post
I'm certainly not angry and I'm not condemning anyone's choices, in any way whatsoever (not sure where you got that idea??). I just felt it was unfair to characterize people's responses as though they were expecting a free fix for their cameras in the event they went wrong, when all they might want is to be able to service and maintain those cameras for a reasonable time.

A lot of people might be angry because they may have bought a Leica hoping it would be a long-term camera for them, rather than the standard upgrade treadmill of cheaper brands. I guess they'll be hoping that nothing goes wrong, but the uncertainty is there - and especially worrying for those who can't afford to drop three or four thousand on a totally new camera, when their LCD stops functioning or their sensor craps out.

In other news, not really sure why a lot of people are blaming Kodak for Leica's failure to purchase enough sensors to maintain the cameras for ten years either? I guess blaming Kodak for pretty much everything is an easy target. They didn't even own Truesense back when the M8 was the current model.

Anyway, let's all hold our breath and wait for the official announcement (or denial). It should come along in under a month or so, if we're lucky.
Un-met (and often unreasonable) expectations are the #1 cause of consumer dissatisfaction. I suspect that more people read the advertising hype than read the warranty fine print. What constitutes a "reasonable time," or "long term camera" for example? Is it reasonable for every camera manufactured to reach it's shutter's MTBF projections, for example? I certainly hope my Ms will reach 150k clicks before I have to look at a shutter replacement... but I'm pragmatic and I realize that MTBF is just that... mean time between failures.
__________________
Leicas and lenses

Find me on the web...
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #88
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NYC
Age: 43
Posts: 17,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbg32 View Post
If something should go wrong with your M8, you send it for repair, and Leitz says it can't be fixed, but offers you at a very attractive discount, a M9, M-E, or a M-240, would you willingly refuse?
I guess it depends on why you bought the M8 in the first place. I would gather that people who are buying M8s right now are not comfortable buying a M9 for whatever reason. The Leica discount isn't that huge (IIRC) ... so it may still not be a comfortable purchase for the M8 owner... who is now left with a paperweight.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #89
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
 
dcsang's Avatar
 
dcsang is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto Canada
Age: 51
Posts: 4,707
Quote:
Originally Posted by hepcat View Post
Un-met (and often unreasonable) expectations are the #1 cause of consumer dissatisfaction. I suspect that more people read the advertising hype than read the warranty fine print.
This is fact.

Managing customer/client expectations is extremely important in retaining and gaining customers. "Under promise and over deliver" is one way of dealing with it but there are many others.

Cheers,
Dave
__________________
I own a Leica and I am NOT a dentist (I don't even portray one on TV!!!)

I have an idea what I'm looking for but it only becomes real once I see it - Constantine Manos

ITS THE MAGIC I SEE IN THE Light, Texture, & Tone
that Intoxicates Me - Helen Hill

My Flickr - it's where I post my RF and P&S shtuff
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #90
kbg32
neo-romanticist
 
kbg32's Avatar
 
kbg32 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 5,565
ATTENTION ATTENTION

BREAKING NEWS FROM LEITZ


Just received this email from Leitz New Jersey;


"Good Morning,

Yes, we have sensor to replace for the M8’s camera. If you are having an issue please ship the camera into us for service / repair.

Please send it to: Leica Camera, Inc., 1 Pearl Court, Unit A, Allendale, NJ 07401

We recommend shipping via UPS or Federal Express or whatever is most convenient for you. Include a note with your name, address and daytime phone number and a brief description of what you would like to have repaired.

If it is a recently purchased item, please include a copy of your sales receipt. An estimate or a warranty repair notice will be mailed to you in approximately 2 to 3 days after we receive the equipment. Please allow a few more days for the mail to reach you. Make a note of the serial number for your records.

If you need more info you can contact Roxana or Carmen in Repair Customer Service...................."


So there you have it straight from Leitz. Take it for whatever it is worth.

End of transmission.
__________________
Keith

http://keithgoldstein.me/
Keith’s Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #91
hepcat
Former PH, USN
 
hepcat's Avatar
 
hepcat is offline
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Eastern Iowa
Age: 62
Posts: 1,268
Oh, boy Kieth!!! Shakespeare was truly ahead of his time... "Much ado about nothing."

I can't wait for the posts now... "the right hand just doesn't know what the left is doing," "they just don't want to provoke a panic!" <grin>

Thanks for the update.

On edit:

this from Wikipedia: "Much Ado About Nothing is generally considered one of Shakespeare's best comedies, because it combines elements of robust hilarity with more serious meditations on honor, shame, and court politics."
__________________
Leicas and lenses

Find me on the web...
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #92
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
 
dcsang's Avatar
 
dcsang is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto Canada
Age: 51
Posts: 4,707
Thanks Keith!!

That should answer Stephen's initial question.

Thread closed.
Nothing to see here.
Move along.



Cheers,
Dave
__________________
I own a Leica and I am NOT a dentist (I don't even portray one on TV!!!)

I have an idea what I'm looking for but it only becomes real once I see it - Constantine Manos

ITS THE MAGIC I SEE IN THE Light, Texture, & Tone
that Intoxicates Me - Helen Hill

My Flickr - it's where I post my RF and P&S shtuff
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #93
mani
Registered User
 
mani is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbg32 View Post
Yes, we have sensor to replace for the M8’s camera. If you are having an issue please ship the camera into us for service / repair. ....
I really hope this is true. I think certainly for a lot of people on this forum the whole camera thing is a bit of a lark and problems that arise - sometimes real and maybe sometimes imagined - are all just a laugh.

But I know from my own experience that it's not like that for all of us: when the M8 LCD problem arose, I was in the position as a relatively new parent of both being at my lowest income-level for years at the same time as most needing a reliable camera. If anything had happened to my M8 at that point, I just wouldn't have been able to justify another 7 or 8 thousand dollars (prices are higher in Sweden) for a digital replacement. Not everyone buys and dumps cameras on a regular cycle.

So let's keep our fingers crossed that Stephen got it wrong on this one.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #94
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is online now
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 27,193
This is good to know.
Thank you for checking it out, Keith.
__________________
- Raid

________________
Top 12 Images;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...n.php?cid=7007

http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #95
CameraQuest
Head Bartender
 
CameraQuest is offline
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: over the hills from Malibu
Posts: 5,280
I too hope Leica has M8/8.2 sensors for years to come,

but its strange that I have been hearing the same story from different sources.

Time will tell.

Stephen
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #96
kbg32
neo-romanticist
 
kbg32's Avatar
 
kbg32 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 5,565
Stephen, it could be corporate speak.... but, in the end, you'll have a "newer" camera!
__________________
Keith

http://keithgoldstein.me/
Keith’s Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-26-2014   #97
VertovSvilova
Registered User
 
VertovSvilova's Avatar
 
VertovSvilova is offline
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbg32 View Post
Stephen, it could be corporate speak.... but, in the end, you'll have a "newer" camera!
Or maybe you were just dreaming that "Leitz" still exists as a company?
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 14:13.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.