Sorry but a couple of real novice questions

[Dhughes]

Hi all

I'm wanting to have a go at developing some 35mm film myself but having trouble working out where to start when it comes to chemicals. I know there is a huge amount of info on here and the rest of the web but most of it goes over my head! I'll be honest and have to say money is tight so want to avoid too many errors when buying stuff. I tend to use 100-400iso film, I assume you use different chemicals for color and B&W film. I guess what I'd like to know is if there is a good set of chemicals that aren't too expensive that would be a good starting point? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Dave.

[Roger Hicks]

Don't go near colour to start with. It's easy enough, but B+W is more forgiving.

From http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subsc...pment%201.html on negative developent technique:

. . . three things. The first is the idea of a standard development time that gives you good negatives of your most usual subjects, which can then be modified to deal with unusual subjects. The second is the actual controls that are possible or desirable in negative development: dilution, time, temperature and agitation. Between them, these two make up what may loosely be called negative development technique. At the end, we also look at short stop, fixing and washing.

and from http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subsc...%2035-120.html , on how to develop films.

Ignore all that you read about 'magic bullet' developers, alkaline fixers and other vapourings of self-proclaimed gurus. Yes, most of them probably work, and some people can get excellent results from them, but ask yourself a simple question. If they really are superior, why are they not the mainstream?

You might want to check both references.

Cheers,

R.

[Pickett Wilson]

The tried and true for B&W:

Kodak D76 developer used one shot, diluted 1-1
Kodak Fixer

That's all you need. I never use stop bath, just a water rinse.

[Vics]

Kodak D-76 is a great starting developer for black and white. You'll need stop bath, a highly concentrated acid that stops the development, Kodak Indicator Stop Bath is one. You'll also need Fixer to fix the image. The stop bath and the fixer are also used when you're developing prints in a wet darkroom.
You'll find kits for color for C-41 (negative film) and E-6 (slide or reversal film.) I'd just do black & white to start, keeping in mind that Ilford XP2 and Kodak's BW400CN are C-41 films.

[Roger Hicks]

...Or Ilford DD-x (the liquid concentrate looks expensive, but lasts forever and is a lot easier to use than mixing powder in water), and Ilford Hypam fixer. Stop bath (weak acetic acid) should prolong the life of the fixer a little, but it's essential only for the sensitometric exercise of trying to develop an absolutely even flat grey negative.

ANY mainstream chemicals will work. I'm not disagreeing with Pickett Wilson: just pointing out that with either Ilford or Kodak it's hard to go wrong.

Cheers,

R.

[Kenj8246]

I'll plug Kodak HC-110 developer for B&W, another one-shot developer that has good shelf life and isn't terribly expensive. Give it a go, it's fun.

Kenny

[Pickett Wilson]

Yeah, I also use DD-X. It's an excellent, no stress developer.

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by Kenj8246

I'll plug Kodak HC-110 developer for B&W, another one-shot developer that has good shelf life and isn't terribly expensive. Give it a go, it's fun.

Kenny

Dear Kenny,

Exactly. Start worrying about the fine points of tonality and true ISO speeds and all the rest once you've mastered the basics -- and if you really master them, you may well never feel any need to change.

For every photographer who sees a real increase in quality from a new developer, there are ten who flail around and never really learn to get a good neg from any of the dozen different developers they try.

Cheers,

R.

[Pickett Wilson]

Tri-X is incredibly forgiving of bad development. Back in the day, on newspaper deadline, we'd soup it in straight Dektol for one minute, slosh it around in fixer until it just cleared, dunk it under some running water, and then print it wet. Not pretty, but it worked!

In the real world, though, time and temperature are important. Otherwise, just have fun.

[Dhughes]

Wow everyone, thanks for all the very fast replies. I like the idea of the liquid developer for ease of use and having a read up on a couple mentioned they don't seem that expensive as it looks like you dilute them a lot. Is it best to match developer to the fixer and stop or do they all work together?

[Dwig]

I vote for Tri-X and D-76 1:1 one shot as an excellent starting point.

Whatever you choose to start with, DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT CHANGING your film or developer until you've been able to create good negatives. Jumping around to different films and/or developers will only hinder your learning. Any of the film/developer combinations recommended so far will yield excellent results when handled properly. If you try one and don't get good results it's not the choice of film/developer but technique. Changing films or developers won't fix things.

When I was young and green (11-12 years old) my mentors were my dad and the clerk at the camera store where I bought my supplies (C. K. Netterville at Thomas Camera in Beaumont TX). Those two conspired to prevent me from buying anything other than Tri-X, D-76, and DuPont Varilour paper (yeah, I'm old...) until I could show C.K. a print that he felt was good enough to show I was able to control my processing. It was the best discipline.

[Dhughes]

[quote=Pickett Wilson;1995645]Tri-X is incredibly forgiving of bad development. Back in the day, on newspaper deadline, we'd soup it in straight Dektol for one minute, slosh it around in fixer until it just cleared, dunk it under some running water, and then print it wet. Not pretty, but it worked!

That leads me onto another question, any recommendations with regards easy film to develop?

[RFH]

It's easier for you to get the basics down if you stick to one brand of film and chemicals for a while. This will help you get comparable results as you develop your skill. Exactly which brands you choose is not important.

1: Buy film. I can higly recommend Ilford Delta and FP125, or if you want something cheaper, try Agafa APX or Fomapan.
Read the datasheet and cross check with other references like Digital Truth.

2: Buy chemicals. You do not need stop bath. Water does the trick. I use a developer called Kodak HC110 and Ilford Rapidfix fixer. The developer can be mixed to different dilutions to control highlights and shadows. I usually use dilution B = 1:31. 1/2 liter of this mix can develop 3 rolls of film and stores for at least six months. It's so cheap I don't even think about it.
Read the datasheet and cross check with other references like Digital Truth.

3: Buy the stuff you need to develop: Thermometer, measuring glasses, a 25 ml. syringe for measuring developer in small amounts, and a tank to develop the film in. Patersons are good.

4: Shoot, develop, wash, fix, rinse, dry. Standardize your process to ease troubleshooting and make it easier to tweak results in your desired direction.

Demineralized water is good for the final rinse of the film. It will help reduce mineral stains as the film dries. Do not use a squeegee to wipe the film.

Good luck! Show us your results.

[Dhughes]

All makes lots of sense there RFH and sounds like a good plan. When you say about the developer doing 3 rolls of film do you mean in one tank or that you can reuse it a couple of times? Also do you mean it stores well when mixed?

[zauhar]

Originally Posted by RFH

It's easier for you to get the basics down if you stick to one brand of film and chemicals for a while. This will help you get comparable results as you develop your skill. Exactly which brands you choose is not important.

1: Buy film. I can higly recommend Ilford Delta and FP125, or if you want something cheaper, try Agafa APX or Fomapan.
Read the datasheet and cross check with other references like Digital Truth.

2: Buy chemicals. You do not need stop bath. Water does the trick. I use a developer called Kodak HC110 and Ilford Rapidfix fixer. The developer can be mixed to different dilutions to control highlights and shadows. I usually use dilution B = 1:31. 1/2 liter of this mix can develop 3 rolls of film and stores for at least six months. It's so cheap I don't even think about it.
Read the datasheet and cross check with other references like Digital Truth.

3: Buy the stuff you need to develop: Thermometer, measuring glasses, a 25 ml. syringe for measuring developer in small amounts, and a tank to develop the film in. Patersons are good.

4: Shoot, develop, wash, fix, rinse, dry. Standardize your process to ease troubleshooting and make it easier to tweak results in your desired direction.

Demineralized water is good for the final rinse of the film. It will help reduce mineral stains as the film dries. Do not use a squeegee to wipe the film.

Good luck! Show us your results.

Regarding the volumes - My tank needs 580 ml to cover two rolls of film, with a little room to spare, so I just make 600 ml of developing solution. The OP should be aware that HC110B comes as a thick syrup. My protocol is 19ml of syrup, then add water to bring the volume to 600 ml. Perhaps that is overly-generous, but I don't have to worry about film being uncovered in the tank, etc.

I am treating that as one-shot (i.e. discard the 600 ml of developing solution after one use).

Randy

[froyd]

Originally Posted by Pickett Wilson

Tri-X is incredibly forgiving of bad development. Back in the day, on newspaper deadline, we'd soup it in straight Dektol for one minute, slosh it around in fixer until it just cleared, dunk it under some running water, and then print it wet. Not pretty, but it worked!

In the real world, though, time and temperature are important. Otherwise, just have fun.

Didn't you forget the "dip in alcohol and light for a quick dry"?

[Bruin]

Like others have said, HC-110 and DDX are popular liquid devs that work well with most films out there. Pay attention to the shelf life of DDX and don't reuse your dev. Stick with a water stop (one less chemical - keep it simple!).

Any fix will work, though I prefer liquid rapid fixers like Photographers Formulary TF-4 or TF-5. You CAN reuse fixer, and these PF fixers work fast without much risk of overfixing if you leave it in for several minutes.

Check out Ilford's rinse technique to save time and water (no hypo clear needed). Do a final rinse in distilled water if you can, and add a few drops of Jet Dry to prevent water spots.

[RFH]

Originally Posted by Dhughes

All makes lots of sense there RFH and sounds like a good plan. When you say about the developer doing 3 rolls of film do you mean in one tank or that you can reuse it a couple of times? Also do you mean it stores well when mixed?

I mean I reuse it for max. 3 rolls. At least that's what I do, it works well even without adjusting for 'wearing out' the developer. And roll 3 looks as good to my non-expert eyes as roll 1. But to be on the safe side, you can always add, say, 5-10% to the developing time for rolls 2 and 3. I've tried doing roll number 4 on a batch, but then you'd definitely have to increase developing time by about 20-30%.

And yes, I store it mixed in a half liter bottle. I have used 6 month vintages with no ill effects. I always found it too wasteful to use it as one-shot.

16ml HC110 + 484 ml water = 1/2 liter of HC110B (dil. 1:31)

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by Dhughes

Wow everyone, thanks for all the very fast replies. I like the idea of the liquid developer for ease of use and having a read up on a couple mentioned they don't seem that expensive as it looks like you dilute them a lot. Is it best to match developer to the fixer and stop or do they all work together?

Any fixer will work with any developer. I normally use both from Ilford, but when I use non-Ilford devs, I still use Ilford fixer.

Most forgiving films to expose and develop? Ilford HP5 Plus and Kodak Tri-X (both ISO 400). Buy whichever is easier to get.

Liquid concentrates really are MUCH easier to use and longer lived than working-solution devs mixed from powders. I find DD-X easier to handle than thick, syrupy HC110.

Cheers,

R.

[Teuthida]

Originally Posted by Pickett Wilson

The tried and true for B&W:

Kodak D76 developer used one shot, diluted 1-1
Kodak Fixer

That's all you need. I never use stop bath, just a water rinse.

Yup. This is all you need. Or, if you prefer Ilford chemistry,
Ilford 1D11
Ilford Rapid Fixer

As Pickett notes, you just don't need much. While I do use stop bath, it's not necessary. Same with wash aids like hypoclear etc.

[Dwig]

Originally Posted by Pickett Wilson

...

That's all you need. I never use stop bath, just a water rinse.

+1

The purpose of the acid stop bath is to uniformly stop the developer's action. Developers require an alkalai environment. The acid stop neutralizes the pH of the chemicals left in the film and stops the action uniformly.

Modern films are thin and retain very little developer. The acid that is a component of modern hardening fixers (virtually all commercial fixers) will serve perfectly well as the stop provided you give the inside of the tank a quick rinse between the developer and the fixer.

This is also true of RC base papers but not fiber based papers. The later carry large amounts of developer soaked into the base and need a true acid stop to kill the developer's action uniformly.

[Pirate]

I just bought a bunch of stuff to develop film with my daughter and son-in-law so I could share the fun. Here's what I picked up, all from Freestylephoto.biz

Kodak Xtol. I did D-76 last time but you need to heat the water to mix D-76. Xtol can be mixed at room temp water, so that was much nicer. I will be using this as a one-shot.
http://freestylephoto.biz/8751752-Ko...ter?cat_id=301

Kodak fixer.
http://freestylephoto.biz/1971746-Ko...lon?cat_id=303

Kodak Hypo Clear.
http://freestylephoto.biz/1464254-Ko...ons?cat_id=304

Foma stop bath, and I have some LegacyPro stop bath.
http://freestylephoto.biz/72202-Foma...ers?cat_id=302

http://freestylephoto.biz/1231326-Le...ons?cat_id=302

And some Kodak photo flo.
http://freestylephoto.biz/1464510-Ko...oz.?cat_id=307

Tanks and changing bags are all extra. All the chemicals are pretty cheap. My extras are a developing tank and a changing bag.
For $16 bucks I bought a new hair dryer and for another $16 bucks I bought some piping stuff and put it all together and made a film dryer. I also made a drying cabinet from a big kite box. It's about 4 feet tall, I cut a hole in the top so I can hang rolls into it and cover it to dry over night.

Good, cheap fun.

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by Dwig

+1

The purpose of the acid stop bath is to uniformly stop the developer's action. Developers require an alkalai environment. The acid stop neutralizes the pH of the chemicals left in the film and stops the action uniformly.

Modern films are thin and retain very little developer. The acid that is a component of modern hardening fixers (virtually all commercial fixers) will serve perfectly well as the stop provided you give the inside of the tank a quick rinse between the developer and the fixer.

This is also true of RC base papers but not fiber based papers. The later carry large amounts of developer soaked into the base and need a true acid stop to kill the developer's action uniformly.

Well, fixers, anyway. There's very rarely any need for a hardening fixer. Hardening fixers have the great disadvantage that the Ilford wash sequence won't work, so they require much longer washing.

Cheers,

R.

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by Pirate

I just bought a bunch of stuff to develop film with my daughter and son-in-law so I could share the fun. Here's what I picked up, all from Freestylephoto.biz

Kodak Xtol. I did D-76 last time but you need to heat the water to mix D-76. Xtol can be mixed at room temp water, so that was much nicer. I will be using this as a one-shot.
http://freestylephoto.biz/8751752-Ko...ter?cat_id=301

Kodak fixer.
http://freestylephoto.biz/1971746-Ko...lon?cat_id=303

Kodak Hypo Clear.
http://freestylephoto.biz/1464254-Ko...ons?cat_id=304

Foma stop bath, and I have some LegacyPro stop bath.
http://freestylephoto.biz/72202-Foma...ers?cat_id=302

http://freestylephoto.biz/1231326-Le...ons?cat_id=302

And some Kodak photo flo.
http://freestylephoto.biz/1464510-Ko...oz.?cat_id=307

Tanks and changing bags are all extra. All the chemicals are pretty cheap. My extras are a developing tank and a changing bag.
For $16 bucks I bought a new hair dryer and for another $16 bucks I bought some piping stuff and put it all together and made a film dryer. I also made a drying cabinet from a big kite box. It's about 4 feet tall, I cut a hole in the top so I can hang rolls into it and cover it to dry over night.

Good, cheap fun.

You don't need hypo clear with film, or with RC paper. Not just 'don't need' in the sense you can do without it, as with stop baths, but 'don't need' in the sense that it's completely useless.

Cheers,

R.

[Pirate]

Yes but that's the way I learned in college, so there's no harm sticking to a formula that works.

And some developers, like the Rollei devs, actually say not to use an acid stop bath. I learned that one the hard way. One of the guys here checked my work and caught that for me when I started using Rollei stuff.