Folders more prone to camera shake?

[TenEleven]

I recently started getting into folders, after shooting lots of TLRs and SLRs and other assorted MF cameras. I like folders as they allow you to carry a tiny package that still packs most of the MF "grunt".

I have an Olympus Six (f/2.8 80mm) and a Zeiss Super Ikonta III (Tessar version). I like them both, altough the Ikonta does beat the Olympus at any aperture and setting, it's also smaller - but I'm going off topic here.

What I've noticed is, that compared to my TLR and - surprisingly - even to my medium format SLRs (Pentax 67, Mamiya) my folders seem much more prone to camera-shake.

I was surprised by this as these folders use leaf shutters, which are renowned for their quietness, stability and handhold-ability. Also I have had much better chances hand-holding my TLRs at speeds as low as 1/10th and my SLRs as low as 1/30th and still getting consistently good results.

Whereas with the folder as soon as I dip below 1/100th it seems that I'm much more prone to camera-shake. Which seems unusual to me compared to my experience with other cameras.

The folder's shutters don't run slow, both have been CLA'd and run within 20% of spec.

My only guess would be that the shutter button on both has quite a bit of travel before it triggers and doesn't compare that favorably to the soft release shutters of the other cameras.

Anyone else experience this?

[farlymac]

The folders, being more ungainly at times, can induce one to shake the camera. Especially if the shutter release is dragging a bit, and you have to exert too much force to operate it. They are not ergonomically designed, being a product of form follows function, and this makes it hard to hold them still. You have to cradle it carefully in your hands when going below 1/100. A short cable release might come in handy.

PF

[oftheherd]

I don't think that should be a problem with folders across the board. Some shutter linkages may be a little more prone to stiffness than others, but with a recent CLA, one would hope not. Some actually have a soft-release-like shutter. I have a couple of Weltas that are like that. All that said, I would check to see if there is undue stiffness, and practice how to release the shutter with minimum shake. It can be done. And most of the old folders, of any format should give you great photos.

[Calzone]

My spin: A heavy Camera is a steadier camera.

My Pentax 67II is my heaviest camera, and although a SLR its still steady.

My Nikon F3P with motor drive is steadier than without the motor drive.

My Leica M-Bodies are weighted down with TA rapidwinders and TA Rapidgrips...

Also know that sniper rifles are heavy for a reason. The light weight and portability of a folder works against being steady IMHO.

Cal

[oftheherd]

Originally Posted by farlymac

The folders, being more ungainly at times, can induce one to shake the camera. Especially if the shutter release is dragging a bit, and you have to exert too much force to operate it. They are not ergonomically designed, being a product of form follows function, and this makes it hard to hold them still. You have to cradle it carefully in your hands when going below 1/100. A short cable release might come in handy.

PF

Everyone's experience is different I think, as far as how to hold best to diminish camera shake. What always worked best for me was to be sure my thumb was below the camera, then place my hand on top of both the camera and the shutter release, and then begin squeezing down with a steady pressure on the release button. I personally found that giving more control than a cable release. You might find the cable release better as did farlymac.

[DwF]

I have found it easy to handhold my Ikonta at a 25th and have made exposures handheld at a 10th that worked well. Note the movement of the pool cue in this shot. It has been years but I imagine this one was closer to 1/10th

On my 6x9, the shutter is on the left side and I find that distracting but it works quite smoothly as well for me.

http://i.pbase.com/o6/91/523491/1/76...v.Shooting.jpg

David

[matt_mcg2]

I have to admit that I struggle a little with slow shots with my Super Ikonta, more than with a TLR, but I find it sometimes helps to trigger the shutter from the linkage by the lens rather than the button. I also have a Vitessa (until I sell it at least ) that I struggle a bit with sometimes as the shutter travel/feel doesn't suit my method of holding/firing a camera.

[graywolf]

Camera steadiness is 80% technique and 20% everything else. The problem comes when you do not realize that each camera requires a slightly different technique. I have 3 different 6x6 folders and I can get sharp photos down to 1/25th of a second with all of them. Sometimes I can get down to 1/10 with the Iskra. That is despite a bit of a tremble in my hands (getting old).

One of the main things is figuring out how to hold the camera so you can press the shutter release smoothly while keeping your elbows braced against your body. Of course it helps if your 50+ year old camera has been recently and properly serviced.

[DwF]

Yes, I recall with my Ikonta C where shutter release is left-handed, I did that (released from the linkage as well

[farlymac]

Originally Posted by DwF

Yes, I recall with my Ikonta C where shutter release is left-handed, I did that (released from the linkage as well

Oh yeah, much easier to do that on the Ikonta C.

PF

[TenEleven]

I want to thank everyone for their detailed thoughts. I just finished shooting another roll of Portra at night using mostly slow speeds below 1/50 and your advice. I will let you know how it turns out and I hope it will result at least in some images that I can share with you.

[z.bruce.li]

When I first used a Bessa RF 6x9 folder (which has shutter release on left side), I cannot get steady shots at any speed lower than 1/100s. The ergonomics is just so different from a TLR or rangefinder with leaf shutter. After a few rolls, I start to get the hang of it: grab it really tightly, consciously hold my breath and make a smooth downward pressure. Now 1/25s indoor shots are possible but not optimal. I did get slightly better results with an older Mamiya Six folder.

I would dare to say I can get at least 2 stops lower speed with my Rolleiflex or Autocord. So for me this particular type of folders are better reserved for sunny day outdoor strolls.

[elmarman]

Yes, I find it more difficult to stop shake especially with my Ensign Selfix cameras and the 12/20 Model which has a difficult shutter release design.

[thegman]

I have a Zeiss Super Ikonta III w/Tessar also, but I've not got my first couple of rolls back from the lab though. Hopefully, they'll be OK, as I love the camera. As far as steadiness goes, I feel like I'm holding it steady, but yes, the long travel of the shutter button does not help. I basically push the camera into my face for steadiness, like I do with all eye-level cameras, I think that helps.

Also, with RF cameras, or anything which does not black out during the exposure, I find it helps to keep your eye on one part of the subject during exposure, almost like trying to steady a gun at a target, with my Leica I've done acceptable 1 second exposures like this, handheld.

My worst camera for shake was probably my Rolleiflex, but I found that quite awkward handheld.

[tunalegs]

It is pretty common to find older folders (6x9 format and larger) with a short cable release folded up with the camera. For cameras with self cocking shutters this is probably the best way to avoid camera shake induced the sharp "break away" of the shutter release on these types.

I have a Foldex that I could not figure out how to hold steadily when taking a vertically oriented photo, because the release on the folding bed was extremely awkward in that position. I discovered later that if I hold the camera "upside down" so that the folding bed was on top of the camera it became much easier to hold the camera steady when releasing the shutter.

[citizen99]

I shoot more with old folders than with anything else. I find that it depends on a sensitive, not too-firm, shutter trigger action, laid out so that you can impart a gentle squeeze to it without tending to put a net directional motion on the camera. Earlier models where you act directly on the shutter, if it falls to hand, can be better than later ones where body-mounted shutter buttons (often stiff) became all the rage. (Personally, I have no objection to lack of interlocks - with many people it's the opposite, it's just a matter of personal preference).

I do like the mechanisms of the Bessa Rangefinder (the early viewfinder Bessas had the same), where you get a 'fire-arm style' trigger deployed in the opened front door, and of the Kershaw 450 and 630 where the trigger is a small sliding panel built into the front door. For these I can arrange my grip to give the gentle squeeze action.

I use the same principles that I was taught on the firing range (think .22 sleeved-down Lee-Enfield, .303 Lee-Enfield Mk4 and Bren ) - get yourself ready to exhale from a relaxed state, exhale gently & pull the trigger.

[Thomas78]

I think it is essantial to hold the camera steady (at best with both hands) and gently press the shutter release without adding any movement to the camera body.

With the right grip, also left hand shutter release cameras can work quite well like the Bessa or the later Super Ikonta C. Just hold the door with the left hand in a "hamburger grip" way with the thumb below and the three outer fingers above the door. The index finger operates the release. The right hand stabilises the camera body in a classic way with the thumb behind the body and the other fingers in front of it.

With the (early) Super Ikonta 530/2 with its direct shutter release I still have to figure out how to get a good grip with the right while operating the shutter with the same hand. (All fingers of the left hand do the "hamburger grip")
This seems to be most complicated when holding the camera in a vertical orientation.

[citizen99]

Originally Posted by Thomas78

...[snip] Just hold the door with the left hand in a "hamburger grip" way [snip]...

A perfect analogy !

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by graywolf

Camera steadiness is 80% technique and 20% everything else. . . .

Not entirely. Compare the same lens (Zeiss 38/4,5 Biogon) on an Alpa and a Hasseblad SWC. The Alpa, with more ergonomic grips and a MUCH smoother release, is a lot easier to hold steady. Yes, I've tried both. So has Zeiss.

Cheers,

R.

[curmudgeon]

When I was using a Leica RF I found that I could reliably shoot at 1/30 and often at 1/15 when sitting down, but only at 1/125 when standing. It wasn't always convenient, of course, but knowing the difference it made I found places to sit surprisingly often. I swapped the Leica for a Rollei 2.8F, which I love, but found I missed working with a RF so much that I just bought a GF670. I'm still shooting the first roll, but just watching through the VF as I shoot, it looks like 1/30 should be OK when I am sitting.

[graywolf]

Originally Posted by Roger Hicks

Not entirely. Compare the same lens (Zeiss 38/4,5 Biogon) on an Alpa and a Hasseblad SWC. The Alpa, with more ergonomic grips and a MUCH smoother release, is a lot easier to hold steady. Yes, I've tried both. So has Zeiss.

Cheers,

R.

I think you are mis-reading my comment. Of course once your techique is near perfect, that everything else becomes 100% of the problem. But I will stick to technique being 80% if you do not have it down pat.

Unfortunately, most of us do not do even as well with camera holding technique as we know how, and some do not know how to start with. Heck a lot of people get camera shake when using a tripod.

True some cameras have a shutter release that is very hard to get at, a short cable release will usually fix that.

Some of us older folks have physical problems that do not let us hold a camera real steady, but that is not a fault of the camera.

My experience is that I can shoot a 35mm at 1/50, roll film at 1/25, and a 4x5* down to about 1/10 of a second if I do my part right. That is sharp for prints up to 16x20.


* Maybe I should say that I use the solenoid fired from the button on the battery case with my Crown Graphic, I can not imagine getting a sharp shot with that slider on the side of the camera near the bottom. Part of technique is finding a way around a particular camera's limitations.

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

Forty five years ago, a friend suggested the following experiment: get a very small mirror and stick it in the middle of an old filter; screw the filter into your lens; darken the room and point a small torch towards the camera; release the shutter while holding the camera in your normal grip; observe the reflection from the lens mounted mirror in a second mirror.

The results were intriguing but I'm going to let those, who wish to carry out the experiment for themselves, tell us what they find without any prejudice engendered by me.

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by graywolf

I think you are mis-reading my comment. Of course once your techique is near perfect, that everything else becomes 100% of the problem. But I will stick to technique being 80% if you do not have it down pat. . . .

We're not disagreeing very much. All I'm saying is that some cameras are a lot easier to hold steady than others, which is hardly controversial. Some folders do have really bad ergonomics and (especially with the passage of a few decades) stiff, jerky shutter releases.

Cheers,

R.

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by Sejanus.Aelianus

Forty five years ago, a friend suggested the following experiment: get a very small mirror and stick it in the middle of an old filter; screw the filter into your lens; darken the room and point a small torch towards the camera; release the shutter while holding the camera in your normal grip; observe the reflection from the lens mounted mirror in a second mirror.

The results were intriguing but I'm going to let those, who wish to carry out the experiment for themselves, tell us what they find without any prejudice engendered by me.

You can do a similar trick with a laser gunsight or even laser pointer fixed to the camera.

Cheers,

R.

[Dwig]

Originally Posted by TenEleven

... What I've noticed is, that compared to my TLR and - surprisingly - even to my medium format SLRs (Pentax 67, Mamiya) my folders seem much more prone to camera-shake. ...

One difference is the direction the releave and your finger move when releasing the shutter. With most TLRs you are pressing front to back. This will impart less angluar movement and a vertical release. Of course, the lighter weight of a typical folder works against you.