The best Water for mixing your Developer?

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by Chriscrawfordphoto

Commercial processors adjust the developer based on test trips each day, which compensates for water quality differences. I've seen major differences between films developed in the tap water in different cities I have lived in. The Kodak rep lied to you. Chemists ALWAYS use distilled water, because they need repeatable results. Many developers have chemicals added, like EDTA, to reduce the effect of dissolved minerals and other chemicals. It is still better to use pure water.

Dear Chris,

No he didn't. That's the standard advice from Kodak. You may have your own opinions, but, as pointed out elsewhere by x-ray, Kodak almost certainly knows more about their products than you do. Likewise Ilford -- and guess what advice they give.

Of course there are some kinds of tap water or well water that are not good, especially if they've run through iron pipes, but for the most part, if it's potable, it's OK for mixing dev. It's often a good idea to strain out lumps, though: the Paterson Water Filter is very good for this. See http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subsc...%20filter.html

Cheers,

R.

[sevo]

Originally Posted by newsgrunt

Any lab I've ever worked in was tap and never had issues whatsoever. B/w or colour. We'd run test strips daily but more for quality control of chemistry life/exhaustion etc..

In general they'll use a particle filter, to prevent little bits of grit embedding in the gelatin and as iron or copper particles from the installation may interact with developers and fixers.

I knew one lab with quite hard well water that de-mineralized their wash water, but even there I don't think they did so with the water used to mix the chemicals - the ion exchanger cylinder was obviously attached to the wash tank itself, not their general water supply.

Originally Posted by newsgrunt

My past experiences suggests distilled water isn't necessary for 99% of b/w chemistry in home use.

Indeed it often is considered harmful, as there already are calcium compensating additives and pH buffers in all ready-mix chemistry kits - combining these with distilled water may soften the emulsion and can affect the activity of the developer.

[leicapixie]

Tap water.i allow it to stand a day or two, lowers PH level. Idea from Milady and her aquarium. Filtered, filtered..

[Pirate]

Hmmm....

But how does letting tap water stand for a few days lower the PH?

[jtm6]

Originally Posted by Pirate

Hmmm....

But how does letting tap water stand for a few days lower the PH?

The chlorine will probably be gone after a few days if you leave it standing in an open container inside. It might be accelerated if it is outside in daylight and/or if you use an air stone. I'm not a chemist but I think adding chlorine will raise the Ph (more alkaline), whereas not adding it or removing it brings the Ph back down.

However, I'm not sure letting tap water stand will lower the trace quantities of caffeine, estrogen, anti-psychotic medicines, and all the other fun chemicals that tap water contains now.

[rlouzan]

I use distilled water for B&W developers and tap water for color chemistry.

Regards,
Robert

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Originally Posted by Roger Hicks

Dear Chris,

No he didn't. That's the standard advice from Kodak. You may have your own opinions, but, as pointed out elsewhere by x-ray, Kodak almost certainly knows more about their products than you do. Likewise Ilford -- and guess what advice they give.

Of course there are some kinds of tap water or well water that are not good, especially if they've run through iron pipes, but for the most part, if it's potable, it's OK for mixing dev. It's often a good idea to strain out lumps, though: the Paterson Water Filter is very good for this. See http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subsc...%20filter.html

Cheers,

R.

I've seen SIGNIFICANT differences in my films developed in tap water in different parts of the country. Using distilled water made those variations go away. Businesses lie to customers every day, and in this case, most people do not move around enough for them to see regional water quality differences.

If you test your developing in your local water and arrive at a developing time that works, then you'll have no problems using tap water. The problem comes in if you move around a lot, or if you're giving developing advice to others around the world, as I'm often asked to do. In that case, consistent repeatable results are only possible with distilled water.

[kokoshawnuff]

I'm not experienced or good enough to take chances and know what went wrong. That's why I try to make things as consistent as possible, therefore I use distilled water for every chemical and the final rinse

[Teuthida]

If tap water is good enough for PICTO Paris Bastiile (it is) It's good enough for me.

[Sparrow]

... the type of water used for the chemicals is one of the last things I would worry about, anything dissolved in water that is suitable for human consumption is going to be at homeopic levels of dilution, how on earth could it have any effect on the development of the negatives?

Anyone getting variable results should really look elsewhere for the culprit, as it's likely to be sloppy procedure in another part or their process

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by jtm6

... However, I'm not sure letting tap water stand will lower the trace quantities of caffeine, estrogen, anti-psychotic medicines, and all the other fun things it contains now.

Wow! You live in a fun town.

[rlouzan]

Stewart,

I remember reading an old Shutterbug article by Otha P Spencer, in which he mentioned tracing the problem of completely blank negatives to the use of tap water. Turned out the water utility company added a little something to the H2O ...
By the by - the use of distilled water solved the problem.

Regards,
Robert

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by Chriscrawfordphoto

I've seen SIGNIFICANT differences in my films developed in tap water in different parts of the country. Using distilled water made those variations go away. Businesses lie to customers every day, and in this case, most people do not move around enough for them to see regional water quality differences.

If you test your developing in your local water and arrive at a developing time that works, then you'll have no problems using tap water. The problem comes in if you move around a lot, or if you're giving developing advice to others around the world, as I'm often asked to do. In that case, consistent repeatable results are only possible with distilled water.

Dear Chris,

So have many of us. But whether you use distilled or tap water, you'd be a fool to take anyone else's recommendation on faith. If you're going to test when you move, or change films, or if you're asking for recommendations... Well, you have to test anyway, regardless of anyone's recommendation, or what water you use.

'Lie' is FAR too strong a word. He was not lying. He was giving (arguably) the best, most realistic advice. If you want to give other advice, fine. Just don't call someone who disagrees with you a liar, unless you know a lot more about the subject than the people who design and sell the chemicals. Which, with all due respect, I don't think you do.

Cheers,

R.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

Wow! You live in a fun town.

Chris, water contains the things he mentioned because people often pour medicines and other chemicals in the drain. Some people even flush old pills down the toilet. Its illegal (in the USA) and stupid to do so, but a lot of people do it. Wastewater treatment doesn't remove stuff like that, sewage treatment systems are made to remove feces and such, not drugs and chemicals.

Treated sewage gets put in the local river, which is often the source of drinking water. Drinking water is filtered and treated to kill disease-causing micro-organisms, but is not so effective at removing chemicals.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Originally Posted by Roger Hicks

Dear Chris,

So have many of us. But whether you use distilled or tap water, you'd be a fool to take anyone else's recommendation on faith. If you're going to test when you move, or change films, or if you're asking for recommendations... Well, you have to test anyway, regardless of anyone's recommendation, or what water you use.

'Lie' is FAR too strong a word. He was not lying. He was giving (arguably) the best, most realistic advice. If you want to give other advice, fine. Just don't call someone who disagrees with you a liar, unless you know a lot more about the subject than the people who design and sell the chemicals. Which, with all due respect, I don't think you do.

Cheers,

R.

Roger, I have worked 'real jobs' for major corporations in the not-too-distant past. I can assure you that businesses lie to customers routinely. Every day. Sometimes it is deliberately done to mislead, other times it is accidental (the customer service or sale person just doesn't know his product well), but it happens. In the past, I worked for several retailers, and we were told to lie to customers all the time. That is one of the reasons I quit working for others, it bothered me morally to live that way.

While you may very well get perfect results with your tap water, and many others will too, the fact remains that my advice to use distilled is correct. No one who takes my advice will get bad results from doing so. Using tap water is a gamble; it'll probably work, but the developing times you see in the manufacturer's info may need changed, and the times given by people like me who have tested materials may not work unless you use distilled water. Why bother with all that hassle to save the pittance that distilled water costs? Distilled costs 97 cents a gallon where I live. My time and my images are worth far more, even to someone like me who hasn't got a lot of money to spend.

I don't doubt Kodak told someone that tap water is fine. It probably is most of the time, but the only way to guarantee results is to use distilled water. I've verified this through extensive testing.

[Trius]

Originally Posted by Rob-F

St. Louis City tap water from the Mississippi river, the same as A-B uses to brew Budweiser and Michelob. I've been happy with it for nearly 50 years!

No wonder I don't like Bud.

[Trius]

Originally Posted by x-ray

One thing that should be avoided is the use of deionized water. Deionizing is not distilling and it lowers the PH which can alter developing results.

Is that for all film processing or for colour only?

[venchka]

Which water? I find that the wet variety gives me good results.
YMMV.

Wayne

[x-ray]

Originally Posted by jtm6

The chlorine will probably be gone after a few days if you leave it standing in an open container inside. It might be accelerated if it is outside in daylight and/or if you use an air stone. I'm not a chemist but I think adding chlorine will raise the Ph (more alkaline), whereas not adding it or removing it brings the Ph back down.

However, I'm not sure letting tap water stand will lower the trace quantities of caffeine, estrogen, anti-psychotic medicines, and all the other fun things it contains now.

Chlorine in water forms an acid which is a lower PH and allowing it to go out of solution over a couple of days may raise the ph not lower it. It would return more to neutral not alkaline.

[x-ray]

Originally Posted by Trius

Is that for all film processing or for colour only?

You should avoid deionized for all processes. It is ok for photoflo, acid stop bath and acid based fixers and not the alkaline fixers like TF4 or 5 from photographers formulary.

[x-ray]

Chris,

What gain would there be for Kodak to lie? If they tell people to use tap water and the results were inferior it would hurt kodaks business because photographers would think their products were inferior. Most of the Kodak reps of old were ex professional photographers with extensive experience and training by Kodak. In my experience with Kodak tech reps and Fujis for that matter over my career Have never lied to my knowledge. Ever rep either knew the answer or contacted Kodak in Rochester and had the answer from the people that developed or worked on the particular product in question.

As to medications in the water, yes they're in there not just from dumping pills in the toilet it happens if you take medication and go to the bathroom. Your body doesn't filter everything out and it goes into the water system. You eat foods with hormones, insecticides and such plus put fertilizers, insecticides and other chemicals on vegetables, fruits and the lawn. All of this eventually winds up in the water.

In the mid 70s I worked for a major nuclear corporation and the US government. While I was at the facility very dangerous quantities of cesium 137, strontium 90 and cobalt 60 were released into the nearby river which went down stream to the lake where it's estimated more than 700 curies of cesium 137 wound up for the bottom feeding fish to ingest.

Despite all of this Kodak says to use ordinary old tap water. After running a hundred thousand or so rolls and sheets of film plus prints in different cities I don't think I have seen any variation due to inconsistent water. Human error plays a much greater role in my opinion.

[x-ray]

I did a little research from official sources not opinions expressed on the web.

Photographers formulary says use distilled water. I found the Acufine mixing instructions and they said only use distilled water if you have a high PH (alkaline) water supply. In reading several Kodak data sheets on the web Kodak never references distilled water. They only say mix in water. If distilled was important they would say so.

I found references from non official sources even recommending mixing in deionized water which is an absolute no no due to a measurably lower PH.

Realistically it probably doesn't make much if any difference, distilled or tap.

[Chuck Albertson]

Originally Posted by x-ray

You should avoid deionized for all processes. It is ok for photoflo, acid stop bath and acid based fixers and not the alkaline fixers like TF4 or 5 from photographers formulary.

Except that the Formulary's instructions for TF-4 recommends using distilled water for mix-up. They say it reduces the smell.

I use distilled water for mixing Xtol, because I've found it collapses a lot less often than when using tap water. Kodak's instructions But I use tap water for all other developers.

[jtm6]

Originally Posted by x-ray

Chlorine in water forms an acid which is a lower PH and allowing it to go out of solution over a couple of days may raise the ph not lower it. It would return more to neutral not alkaline.

Ah yes. I knew it would return to neutral whether it was originally alkaline or acidic but thanks for pointing out the acid. I think I forgot that long before I started dechlorinating tap water. Are you specifically referring to hypochlorous acid?

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by rlouzan

Stewart,

I remember reading an old Shutterbug article by Otha P Spencer, in which he mentioned tracing the problem of completely blank negatives to the use of tap water. Turned out the water utility company added a little something to the H2O ...
By the by - the use of distilled water solved the problem.

Regards,
Robert

Sounds a bit of a story to me ... I simply don't believe water that one would be prepared to drink could possibly effect development. Just consider how low the dilution of the contaminants would be; how could an amount that one cannot taste possibly make any difference when compared to the amount of photo-chemicals that are being added?