What do M Monochrom reviews say about the reviewers?

[CaptZoom]

Originally Posted by leicashot

A professional/creditable street photographer is someone who has proven themselves over a number of years by contributing paid/unpaid quality work to publications online/offline....not someone who started blogging about a profession he has no experience about. I have nothing against Eric Kim, but I know many people that do, mainly due to the way he is teaching street photography - and he's copying Bruce Gilden's 'approach', and not achieving his 'execution'.

That approach creates a bad rap for street photographers who are very passionate about what they do. Digital photography and social networking has made people very conscious and aware of photos being taken in public, and that kind of direct, confronting approach only places stronger restrictions on photographers.

Another example is what happened in Melbourne, where Eric nearly got arrested. Instead of walking away from a woman unhappy with her picture being taken, he sticks around and awaits police so he can make a video about it. But it was he who instigated the whole thing. He could have just walked away, but it made better entertainment by sticking around. This kind of behavior is not good for street photographers' reputations.

I am only speaking on behalf of some serious street photographers who aren't happy with the way he goes about his business. Personally, I think what he is doing needs to be adjusted but I certainly won't hate on someone just cause they're doing well. I'm sure he's a nice guy with good intentions, but maybe needs to re-look at his approach and effects it's having.

I know that while he is deemed a Leica 'ambassador', Leica are quietly denying it. They obviously want the numbers he draws in through social media, but don't want the negative side of his reputation tarnishing the historial brand associated with mainly Magnum Photographers.....and now, Eric Kim....Sorry Leica, you can't have it both ways.

Oh man the "how" in my question was supposed to be a "who"!?! I agree with your definition/description of a street photographer and the detrimental effects of Kim's method. But I'm more interested in finding about who you consider a street photographer? Preferably some one whose still active and some one whose work I can see in print not online or a monitor.

[Teuthida]

Who is Eric Kim? The Hong Kong guy who try's to be funny while gushing about the sublime tactile experience of using a Leica?

I don't consider him a " reviewer."

[CaptZoom]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

Who is Eric Kim? The Hong Kong guy who try's to be funny while gushing about the sublime tactile experience of using a Leica?

I don't consider him a " reviewer."

I'm pretty sure Eric Kim is based in Los Angeles, though he does teach abroad. Is is an Asian American, and I don't think he does reviews. You might be thinking of the fella from Digital Rev with a British accent. He does claim to do reviews.

[shadowgun]

Kai Man Wong is the Digi Rev guy. A great comedian. I love his reviews.

[leicashot]

Originally Posted by CaptZoom

Oh man the "how" in my question was supposed to be a "who"!?! I agree with your definition/description of a street photographer and the detrimental effects of Kim's method. But I'm more interested in finding about who you consider a street photographer? Preferably some one whose still active and some one whose work I can see in print not online or a monitor.

Here is the first place to look for today's premiere street photographers. These guys didn't jump on the bandwagon when digital made photography easier. This was originally co-founded by Magnum photographer Trent Parke http://www.in-public.com/

This is what I call real, dedicated street photography by true professionals.

Also, his Australian agency here, more so in the documentary genre: http://www.oculi.com.au/

[steveyork]

I've looked at some of these reviews, and if they had great photos to go with there words I may have read a little more deeply.

[leicashot]

Why all of a sudden the attacks on Leica reviewers? How has the Monochrom changed that? Is it that people believe it's a horrible camera and the reviewers need to be able to take great pictures to review cameras? In history, most reviewers aren't great photographers, and great photographers wouldn't be able to make great reviews because they usually care little for the gear. As a matter of fact if you measure by numbers only, the most successful reviewer is Kai Wong of Digital Rev, who is a very average photographer, but entertaining to an extent and draws in the numbers.

Nothing has changed, so why now? The Monochrom is every bit as good as the reviewers say. What do people want? Bad reviews of a great camera because they are unable to obtain it? I know it's a great camera from experience, in the field. Whether my pictures are good on not does not make my opinion any less valid. A camera is still a lightbox with a sensor, so what people are essentially reviewing is the sensor. We all know what the Leica M line can do.

Seriously, of course reviewers don't want to upset the manufacturer's feeding them their equipment for reviewing, which ends up feeding their families? If they become too critical, who will want to supply them gear to review?

Tell me one truly objective reviewer (maybe Lloyd Chambers) who is 100% honest about their reviews? How long would they last at their trade?

Like I said earlier, if you think you can do better, go do it. Make better reviews, take better photos and criticise the crap out of products so you don't look like you're kissing butt. Then will people be happy? ......ok now I'm done

[photomoof]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Kristian Dowling on RFF and those who've also posted to the two threads he started are the only useful and convincing reviewers of the Monochrom. On others' writings I am curious but bored. On this RFF evidence I am reaching for my cheque book.

I agree, it takes more work to follow the RFF and other postings by real users, but it is worth the effort.

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by leicashot

Why all of a sudden the attacks on Leica reviewers? How has the Monochrom changed that? Is it that people believe it's a horrible camera and the reviewers need to be able to take great pictures to review cameras?

Nothing has changed, so why now? The Monochrom is every bit as good as the reviewers say. What do people want? Bad reviews of a great camera because they are unable to obtain it? I know it's a great camera from experience, in the field. Whether my pictures are good on not does not make my opinion any less valid. A camera is still a lightbox with a sensor, so what people are essentially reviewing is the sensor. We all know what the Leica M line can do.

Seriously, of course reviewers don't want to upset the manufacturer's feeding them their equipment for reviewing, which ends up feeding their families? If they become too critical, who will want to supply them gear to review?

Tell me one truly objective reviewer (maybe Lloyd Chambers) who is 100% honest about their reviews? How long would they last at their trade?

Like I said earlier, if you think you can do better, go do it. Make better reviews, take better photos and criticise the crap out of products so you don't look like you're kissing butt. Then will people be happy?

Exactly. Generally, if I don't like something, I don't review it. Sometimes I don't review it because it doesn't interest me all that much; sometimes because I can´t get one, sometimes, because I don't think anyone would pay me to do so. Sometimes, all four.

Inevitably, a review concentrates on what a camera (car, food mixer...) can do, and either skates over what it can't do or says (which is what I try to do) "If you want to do so-and-so, maybe this isn't the camera (car, food mixer...) for you."

Cheers,

R.

[leicashot]

Originally Posted by photomoof

I agree, it takes more work to follow the RFF and other postings by real users, but it is worth the effort.

Happy my contributions are helpful, but I do feel people are being overly harsh to reviewers. What have they said about the Monochrom that has triggered so much debate? I'd really love to know, because my experiences are in line with what everyone is saying. The Monochrom is Leica's biggest achievement in digital so far and it's sensor has exceeded my expectations which were veyr high, especially considering it's price.

Value for money? hell no!

[ChrisC]

Dante, Dante, Dante --- Will you please stop laughing; it's really interfering with my tinitus.

.............. Chris

[willie_901]

Any harshness is well-deserved when the reviewers are untrained amateurs journalists with agendas that don't necessarily put their readers before their own interests and needs.

Telling us to start doing reviews ourselves if we don't appreciate those reviewers does not make sense to me. We would just add to the problem. Besides, there is no precedent for reviewers in any field to act that way. Food critics aren't told to become chefs; movie critics aren't told to become directors or actors and automotive reviewers aren't expected to design automobiles. Why should photographers reviewing camera reviewers be any different?

And, mundane and low-quality reviews do not determine the M9M's potential, Leica does.

[emraphoto]

Originally Posted by leicashot

I think it's important to understand that reviewers aren't usually professional photojournalists because most are out working and aren't interested in reviewing, often because they care more about their work than letting the world know how their gear contributes to their work.

It's easy to sit back and criticise reviewers but they are doing what they love in order to earn a living. If people think they can do better, they're welcome to try.

Also, I was criticised for my editing of my Monochrom pictures, making them look more contrasty than what came out of the camera, yet professionals including Magnum's Jacob Aue Sobol have massively processed their Monochrom images to achieve results that even Leica praise.

So what do people want? They just want to criticise without good reason. I think more people can relate to reviewers like Steve Huff than a Magnum photographer, yet they criticise Steve cause they start believing they can do better as they begin to accumulate more information as time goes by.

Like I said earlier, photography and reviewing is a big popularity contest now, love it or hate it. But if you don't have anything positive to say, try keeping it to yourself and use that energy to create your own imagery that makes you happy. I'm getting tired of people complaining, comparing and competing. That wasn't what i signed up for when I decided to pick up a camera.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't buddy.

[emraphoto]

There is something that I salute about all the internet photo phenoms. That is the 'do' part of the equation. I learnt early on to surround myself with the 'do' crowd as they motivate me as well as constantly cement the thinking I need going on in my head 24/7. You can do whatever you want. Just 'do' instead of talking about it.

[semilog]

Originally Posted by Rangefinderfreak

What`s the fuss ? From the short time I had a possibility to use it, the picture quality of M-M is fantastic, but ONLY if you are making gallery size prints. It all boils down to the fact: What`s your aim, for what you are shooting. If you just carry it around and maybe post images in Internet, the M8 in B&W mode is perfectly O.K.
If you are into "B&W reportage style rough images" why not just use a M6 and 400 asa film and develop it in Rodinal ?

Um, because Rodinal is a crap developer for small-format negatives?

>>> :P <<<

[giellaleafapmu]

Reading this thread I start wondering: what do you guys really espect from a review. I mean, are you especting to read whether a camera is good or bad? I doubt there is any really bad camera in the market now, at least not a professional camera. Are you especting to know whether it will make your pictures better of worst? Of course unless you are trading an F for a D4 and you are in sport photography it will not make any difference. Maybe if you sell your pictures some client might take you more seriously but that's it. So reviewer usually go to the little difference. If you buy a camera like the Monochrom which lack many features of a point and shot you are at least hoping that there is some small diference in the rendering of something when you get b/w pictures, so the reviewers get to than. "It resolvs 20% more lines in this wavelength than a similar sensor with AA filter". Do I care? No, but then I don't read Monochrom review other than...ok, I do read these review but I don't take them seriously. Is it possible that a Ricoh costing a fraction of the price get to the same result? Maybe, but if you are fine with a Ricoh maybe you shouldn't really take seriously Puts' reviews. I wouldn't be that harsh to reviewers who are doing just what probably people reading reviews espect: nitpicking on details. Where I have some problems, both with reviews and with company documents, is the lack of a lot of informations. Does a Samsung EX2F come with a charger? Nobody knows! What is the code of the associeated viewfinder? This can be known but...woooofh, it's really well hidden in documents. How is the manual focusing of a most autofocus cameras? Nobody knows or care to write. This is annoying but then it is where this and a few other forums come into play with nice people explaining those things.

GLF

[CaptZoom]

Originally Posted by leicashot

Here is the first place to look for today's premiere street photographers. These guys didn't jump on the bandwagon when digital made photography easier. This was originally co-founded by Magnum photographer Trent Parke http://www.in-public.com/

This is what I call real, dedicated street photography by true professionals.

Also, his Australian agency here, more so in the documentary genre: http://www.oculi.com.au/

Thank you.

[CaptZoom]

There is a recent trend in camera review of talking about handling of the camera and the ergonomics which are two things that are quite valuable for me. Resolution, high ISO noise, features not related to taking photographs are pretty much useless for me. In the case of M cameras, there isn't much to talk about in thus regard. The layout hasn't changed since the M3. The only thing I'd like to see is the ISO button being placed close to the shutter release so I can change it without needing to use both hands.

[wosim]

I take reviews as personal opinions, that can give me hints for what a product is made and good for, where are possible "quirks" and so on. Reviews - as Forum discussions - can broaden your view and - in the best case - leading you to better decisions.

The decision to buy a product, is my own and so, if the product doesn't meet my expectations, it's my and not the reviewers fault.

It might better, to keep this in mind:

"All you need to take the most beautiful pictures in the world
is a simple Praktika with a 50 mm lens.
Stop wasting your time talking cameras, and go take pictures!"

Hans Vree

[jsrockit]

Are you guys really fighting over a camera?

[leicashot]

People are criticising reviewers because they like a camera that obviously people want to hate for whatever reasons.

[jsrockit]

Everyone's an expert on RFF.

[leicashot]

Originally Posted by jsrockit

Everyone's an expert on RFF.

I'm getting tired of people always thinking they can do better and so quick to criticise.....summary: The Leica M Monochrom - the camera people (who don't have one) love to hate, it is that good

[icebear]

Originally Posted by leicashot

Here is the first place to look for today's premiere street photographers. These guys didn't jump on the bandwagon when digital made photography easier. This was originally co-founded by Magnum photographer Trent Parke http://www.in-public.com/

This is what I call real, dedicated street photography by true professionals.

Also, his Australian agency here, more so in the documentary genre: http://www.oculi.com.au/

Thanks for posting the links above, Kristian.

Looking at Trent Parke's bw work, I couldn't care less of the equipment he used.
I have no clue if there is any information about what he is using but I simply don't care.

This is exemplary for what many on the web complaining either about Leica, about reviewers or about the Monochrom completely forget: It is about the result and not the equipment.

Even you have the M3 (his body serial #) used by HCB, you will not take his pictures.

[leicashot]

Originally Posted by icebear

Thanks for posting the links above, Kristian.

Looking at Trent Parke's bw work, I couldn't care less of the equipment he used.
I have no clue if there is any information about what he is using but I simply don't care.

This is exemplary for what many on the web complaining either about Leica, about reviewers or about the Monochrom completely forget: It is about the result and not the equipment.

Even you have the M3 (his body serial #) used by HCB, you will not take his pictures.

Trent worked with Leica M film cameras and most recently he did a lot of work with only a 28mm lens. He has amazing vision and us Aussies are proud to have him in Magnum