Leica gets it...

[Griffin]

..I think. They did it, that's for sure.

That new M... just boggles my mind. It feels like the final product after so many years of slowly evolving.

Assuming for a moment that ISO 6400 is pretty darned fantastic, this camera is the business. Mount any 35mm or smaller lens, focus peaking, live view, full frame, weather sealed. I can't imagine the next model getting any much better than this. ISO 409.600? Sure, the EVF's will get better. Perhaps frame lines like in the Fuji hybrid finder that will resize and reposition as you focus?

And they called it "M". My little brain can't imagine this thing getting outdated anytime soon. In 20 years time, this camera will still be relevant, so long as the electronics keep working...

I'll never be able to afford one, but it is the one digital camera that appeals to me most of all.

[shadowgun]

Like Apple calling iPad 3 the new iPad?

What happens to the next version of the M? The newer M? The newest M?
What would the current M be called? The not so new M?

[Griffin]

Well, that's the thing. It really doesn't seem necessary to update something that is so complete. I know it sounds ridiculous, but how much more will the next model need?

[thegman]

Probably a built in EVF, a clip-on one for such an expensive camera smacks of something that will get changed in the next one.

Perhaps also there will be a big change in sensor technology, maybe Foveon style, but with good high ISO. Perhaps a far higher megapixel count without the associated noise. Lenses are still outresolving digital sensors.

Also, the electronics will fail. Electronic components have a lifespan, and by the time that lifespan expires, it'll be uneconomical to restart the production line to make more, as technology will have moved on.

But on top of all that, and the only bit that really matters, is that to make money Leica (and all other electronics manufacturers) have to keep on selling new stuff to survive, so they will, and they'll invent new ways to make people think that they need that new camera.

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by shadowgun

Like Apple calling iPad 3 the new iPad?

What happens to the next version of the M? The newer M? The newest M?
What would the current M be called? The not so new M?

Well, in the case of Apple, there is no Macbook 4, so they are just going back to using specs as a differentiator as most computer companies do. Leica has already stated they will be using "type" to describe the different models.

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

It feels like the final product after so many years of slowly evolving.

Some of us still feel that way about the M3. Why would anyone want one of those cut down cheapo M2s?

[kennylovrin]

I really like when product names are simplified. I prefer saying "a 2012 model M" than "m10, m11, m12" etc.

What I find more interesting with this new one is that to me it is not so much about an M with live view, video recording and this and that. It is rather the first step towards an M without the rangefinder. I'm sure that it won't be long until there is no such thing as a latest model rangefinder M. the market is already small, it will become tiny when the EVF's reach the inevitable level of quality where they can replace an optical view (for "everyone").

[Griffin]

I wouldn't bet any of my money on Leica removing the rangefinder.

[Glass Addict]

Originally Posted by kennylovrin

I really like when product names are simplified. I prefer saying "a 2012 model M" than "m10, m11, m12" etc.

What I find more interesting with this new one is that to me it is not so much about an M with live view, video recording and this and that. It is rather the first step towards an M without the rangefinder. I'm sure that it won't be long until there is no such thing as a latest model rangefinder M. the market is already small, it will become tiny when the EVF's reach the inevitable level of quality where they can replace an optical view (for "everyone").

How is "a 2012 model M" simpler than say "M10" ?

I think you underestimate the target market's sentiment towards the rangefinder mechanism. It is a slippery slope that Leica is dealing with when Leica deviates too far away from its rudimentary designs and user experience. Including excellent lenses, these are what separated Leica from the rest.

[kennylovrin]

Originally Posted by Glass Addict

How is "a 2012 model M" simpler than say "M10" ?

I think you underestimate the target market's sentiment towards the rangefinder mechanism. It is a slippery slope that Leica is dealing with when Leica deviates too far away from its rudimentary designs and user experience. Including excellent lenses, these are what separated Leica from the rest.

It's not necessarily easier with the model year, I just like it. I really like the way Apple name their products - iMac has been iMac since the 90ies. I suspect there is the psychological aspect of having the same thing as someone else even though it's different revisions. And I like a product rather than a specific revision etc. But really, it's just a preference for me.

It's quite obvious that Leica's target market wants a range finder because that is what their product is. I'm not saying that market wants to drop the range finder. I'm just speculating that Leica might drop the range finder when they realize they can build the M without it and appeal to every other market that today don't want the range finder, which potentially are bigger markets.

It doesn't have to happen, and it's not like I WANT it to happen, but it certainly wouldn't suprise me if it does. Personally I like the range finder experience. I just have a hard time imagining that from the perspective of Leica it will make sense for all foreseeable future to keep the mechanical range finder. But obviously it is all just guesses.

[zuiko85]

"In 20 years time,..."

Why wait. If you'll "never be able to afford it" then get an M4, already a 40 year old camera, a brick of Tri-X, and go for it.

[David Hughes]

Hi,

Well, it's 2012 so they could have called it the M12 or else started the serial numbers with 12, like the Ex USSR ones are... (Now that would be interesting, Leica copying something the Russians and their friends did.)

But, seriously, we don't have that problem with Elmars and Summicrons even though they change from time to time.

Regards, David

[ernstk]

Originally Posted by Sejanus.Aelianus

Some of us still feel that way about the M3. Why would anyone want one of those cut down cheapo M2s?

Quite simply because it delivers more than the M3 does...

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by thegman

Probably a built in EVF, a clip-on one for such an expensive camera smacks of something that will get changed in the next one.

Perhaps also there will be a big change in sensor technology, maybe Foveon style, but with good high ISO. Perhaps a far higher megapixel count without the associated noise. Lenses are still outresolving digital sensors.

Also, the electronics will fail. Electronic components have a lifespan, and by the time that lifespan expires, it'll be uneconomical to restart the production line to make more, as technology will have moved on.

But on top of all that, and the only bit that really matters, is that to make money Leica (and all other electronics manufacturers) have to keep on selling new stuff to survive, so they will, and they'll invent new ways to make people think that they need that new camera.

No, I think the OP was right. I don't know, but I think it would be difficult to the point of impossible to put a second finder into an M-size body. Frances says that on the night the Type 240 was released, as I was reading the specs I kept saying "YES! They've done exactly what I'd have done." She says I said it four times...

It's not perfect. But it's very, very clever. Apart from the price, the only thing holding me back from deciding to buy one is the different control layout on the back, which might make it hard to use next to my M9 ('cos I'd want both).

Cheers,

R.

[Griffin]

Had to Google Type 240. I dunno what it is, but this thing speaks to me.

[alphonse2501]

Leica M Typ 240

This is troublesome that Leica do not continue to use Mx...

[Duane Pandorf]

First off, I don't have an M body of any vintage but in the last few months the GAS for a Leica body has me frightened. I too have been anxiously waiting to see what Leica would do with their next model. I am not in a position at this moment to buy one but I keep visualizing having one in my hand.

I'm using the poor man's digital Leica, Ricoh GXR-M, and I'm afraid that my daily use of the camera with have its toll. What I like about the new M compared to the previous digital Ms is the weather sealing. That tells me this body should hold up well over time.

Of course as previously mentioned the electronics are the weakest link to the longevity of any of our modern day gadgets. But I still have electronic gear that's over 20 years old that still work. It is that occasional one of the bunch that fails when there are no longer parts available that will make that owner very sad.

We're seeing that now in the M8 with some instances of the LCD failing and no replacement available.

So lets say the camera works fine for 5 years? How long does one keep a car now that sells for 30k?

[moreammo]

Well i don't know what this means for me... i have only ever owned the m3, the M6 and the M9... if there is no M12 i guess i'll stick with the M9

[giellaleafapmu]

Originally Posted by Griffin

I wouldn't bet any of my money on Leica removing the rangefinder.

I bet that eventually the level of EVF will be good enough to "fake" the rangefinder way of focussing and that the function will be available in all cameras such as Nex, Fujis and of course Leica itself. If, as I expect, quality will be good and price much lower than a real rangefinder probably eventually few people will even notice the change. It will be like the tiny autofocus screw still present in many Nikon cameras, no one cares, when one mount an old lens that thing takes care of it, with a new lens things work the same but a bit faster. Same probably there, with a old Leica lens it will be the old system controlling the EVF, new cheaper alla electronic lenses will appear and nobody will pay any attention to this. My guess of course, I have no information supporting any of the crap I am writing.

GLF

[leicapixie]

What no auto-focus, complete auto-metering and touch screen controls? See many possibilities, for newer and of course "better" cameras.
Yesterday i purchased color film on special, 12 rolls, maybe today another 12 or 20. See this is new unexposed film and better than stuff i already used.
There will always be a newer model.

[Adanac]

The M is a M9 with an updated sensor based on commodity CMOS electronics, has various performance updates as you'd expect, has live view, finally, and an external EVF. I was pleasantly surprised to see it priced like the M9 used to be rather than coming in at a new elevated premium.

While I do think this is the very first digital M I have ever remotely contemplated wanting to buy, my reaction isn't one of wonder or awe but of thinking "finally".

As in... "finally" the M catches up with the many other live view camera implementations. Finally you can use any focal length lens on the camera from ultra-wide to really long and still reliably focus and compose. Finally you can shoot some video for those times when you wish you could. Finally you can use macro rings and other such devices at will. All these things have been possible with other cameras for quite some time, and possible with M lenses via adapters on other cameras for quite some time.

We aren't taking anything away from the M by labelling it evolutionary instead of revolutionary.

I wonder how long it'll be until the next catch-up product release will be.

[bwcolor]

Leica needs a follow-on product in a few years. Some M will move to the used market and the usual suspects will upgrade. For many it isn't about need. It is about want. This is the first digital Leica that might have me selling equipment. I'll wait for a year and see how things shake out.

[bugmenot]

And better phrase for this thread's title would be "Leica caught up...".

That would reflect the fest Leica achieved this Photokina quite perfectly. They caught up in terms of their digital evolution to what a Canon 5D II did four years ago.

It is by no means a small achievement, and it will certainly tempt more photographers that can afford the price to shoot with rangefinders, whether that means actually using the RF mechanism or not is a different discussion.

[jkrumsick]

It's hard for me to get excited over things like this. I know I will never buy one.

With electronics there is never some perfect zen state. Never an end. There will always be some new mode for nightvision, seeing through clothes or around a corner. There will be Lytro-style focusing in post production. There will be dynamic ISO ranges on the sensor so that the shadows hitting one part of the sensor will be higher ISO and the highlights hitting another part a lower ISO (almost like HDR but in one exposure).

Sure advantages abound from all of this. But with every advantage comes a cost.

And I will keep getting great shots from my $100 Nikon FM :-).

[digitalintrigue]

Still trying to figure out why it has weather sealing when none of the lenses do.