M9, M-E, Lens Debacle

[bonatto]

Too many reviews on the web, it's difficult to actually sort out what to do. I know all of this entirely subjective, but I'm hoping my fellow RFF'ers can pitch in some input from personal experience.

Here's the deal.

I used to have a D700 with a 50mm Zeiss MF Lens. Got rid of the monstrous behemoth. I've been through a Sigma DP2 and all the wonderful frustrations and perks that come along with it, a Bessa R2, and a Panasonic GF1 with the 20mm (from the package above, this last one was the most useful to me over the course of a year).

Then I got an M6 and everything changed.

50mm Cron F2, V3

35mm Biogon F2

Nikon Coolscan V

and more recently

Fuji X100


Like I imagine many of you, film is wonderful exercise for me, and the M6 way of shooting is simply unparalleled. Unfortunately it's just all too laborious for me now, after having gone through 70 or so rolls of film (only half of it scanned so far.

So as a compromise, I got the Fuji.

The X100 has yielded some great shots, though it's a bit frustrating to use coming from the M6 as it's quite a bit more complicated, cluttered, and slower...and I miss manually focusing....and I miss my red arrows.

Out comes the M-E at a more approachable price point, and bloated gets the GAS.

As I have never used any of the digital Leicas, I'm not too familiar with their handling.

Basically my dilemma is, plop down a significant wad of cash for a shiny new M-E/M-9, or get a cheaper M8 (or M8.2), upgrade the summicron to a lux, and get used to the cropped sensor, using only the 35 and 50.

Any significant drawbacks I should be aware of from the M8 vs the newer FF?

How do either compare, handling wise to an M6?




Lastly,

Some shots from Myanmar just to color up the thread!

[jsrockit]

As a person who has used the m8, then the m9, and then back to the m8... I would say go for the m9 or better if you can swing it. It's the more modern camera and you'll be able to use your lenses as they are intended. I think this is better than the summicron to summilux trade up.

[Vickko]

Yep, me too.

Had two M8's. UV/IR filters drove me mad. Crop size wasn't as much of a problem, and "encouraged" me to try a few lenses that I wouldn't have bought, like, 28mm. was quite happy that 35mm became 52mm on the M8, as I liked 35mm lenses. But sold the M8's when a reasonably price M9 (with warranty) became available.

Haven't looked back since the M9. Love it for eliminating the UV/IR filters and setting lens types (I didn't convert any lenses to 6-bit).

Now, I am completely fascinated by the M-Milestone. All the modern DLSR bells and whistles ahd keeping some of the best of the M features (RF, size). And can us R lenses.

So, I'm plotting on how to "afford" one.

But, in your case, if you can swing it, I recommend the M9 first. Not the M8.

Vick

[twopointeight]

I use an M8.2. I have no issues with the UV/IR filters as they just live on the lenses. The 28mm Skopar acts like a 35mm and is very small. For low light or portraits, I use the 35mm Summilux. 640 iso has not been a problem in most circumstances. I use a 50mm Summicron too. All 3 lenses work fine with the M8.2. Eventually, I'll go full frame, but the M8.2 is a good place to start, and stay for awhile.

[willie_901]

The M8 LCD screen is no longer available. This means you have to:

Assume your LCD screen will last for the remaining life of the camera (not a bad assumption as most LCD screens do last that long)

Set about $2,000 or so aside in case your screen fails and Leica offers you an upgrade because the camera can't be repaired

Use the camera without a LCD display

[Griffin]

Choosing between an M8 and M9/E is an absolute no-brainer in opinion.

[mathias.samuelson]

Have you looked into finding a lab you can trust to do your scans in low- to medium-size? I'm not sure where you are, but if you're in the US or is prepared to ship intl I can strongly recommend Richard Photo Lab in Hollywood, CA. They charge about $20 per roll proc and scan and their scans are superb.

[Turtle]

If you can afford a M9/M-E, I'd personally go that way. I would not even consider a M8 due to the LCD issue, the crop factor, the reduced ISO performance etc, but that's just me.

[denizg7]

the sad part is at the end the sensors are japanese

[Lflex]

Originally Posted by denizg7

the sad part is at the end the sensors are japanese

??





"ten characters"

[Vincent.G]

The Leica M-E is very attractive to me. It might be the first ever digital M I will buy new.

[Richard G]

Originally Posted by Vincent.G

The Leica M-E is very attractive to me. It might be the first ever digital M I will buy new.

It does look good, and hopefully looks better in the metal. I don't need the preview lever and would like a camera without it. I am happy with my M9. Took a shot at 1600 ISO this afternoon. A bit of noise, but very serviceable shot, especially in black and white.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by bonatto

...

As I have never used any of the digital Leicas, I'm not too familiar with their handling.

...

How do either compare, handling wise to an M6?

...

With respect to handling, I find that shooting with an M9 is very little different from shooting with an M6. For me the significant differences are:

• faster follow-up shots

• no need to crank the film advance lever

• mono and colour results from the one exposure

You can meter manually as with the M6, or you can trust the meter and let it set the shutter speed for you. I leave the exposure compensation set to -1/3 stop to avoid overexposing the highlights, and use RAW format to ensure I can pull up the shadow details as needed. Set the menu option to allow exposure lock on half-shutter-press, and the instant review to display only while the shutter release is held down.

Weight, balance and size are close enough to an M6 to be a non-issue.

Overall I find it to be a very similar experience. For me shooting with the M9 is very close to shooting with an M6, and I find my shooting style remains much closer to the way I shoot with my film M bodies than the style I adopt when using a dSLR. I make fewer exposures, and my keeper rate is better.

For some people, handling the film and developing and wet-printing or scanning the negatives are steps in their creative workflow that are just as important as focusing the camera, setting exposure and framing a composition. For others, immediate digital output has liberated and empowered their creativity. You have your own experience moving from D700 to M6 to guide you here.

Good luck!

[tstermitz]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

I leave the exposure compensation set to -1/3 stop to avoid overexposing the highlights,

Do most people live at -1/3 exposure?

I'm still trying to zero in on exposure, but find that I'm often boosting exposure slider in LR by a half stop. Of course it depends on the lighting conditions, but I think the red over-exposure warning n the screen is a little too safe. And a properly exposed to the right image should look a bit washed out... not to mention the difficulty of judging things on the low-quality screen with my low-quality eyes!

The cost of insufficient ETTR is higher noise in the shadows, especially when you need to pull up exposure or the shadow slider.

Incidentally, I never use the automatic meter. I was used to the M6 metering, and didn't even realize for the longest time that A meant auto. Hah! Anyway, I like it that way as I feel like I'm paying closer attention to what I'm doing.

[tstermitz]

Getting back to the OP.

I think the screen shortage argues against the M8. On the other hand, the continuing usage of the Kodak sensor in present and future production of the MM and M9E decreases the risk of obsolescence for any of the M9 models, even a used one.

[Jamie Pillers]

psssst..... X-Pro1 with 2.0 firmware is fantastic.

[denizg7]

unfortunately there is not a single all in one camera that has a big viewfinder , minimilastic and has manual focus tab focusing option. That would be too ideal, closest thing to that was the x100

its not you , it's the gear market. Everyone is in love with thin point and shoots with their lcds and autofocus

[denizg7]

Originally Posted by Lflex

??





"ten characters"

when you're buying a digital m at heart its same or worse than a full frame in terms of iso performance. you think buying an m would outlast your life and possibly your childs , a digital m's lcd , sensor these are all made to die quick at heart its japanese no offense but if slrs never came into play , nikon and cannon would still make rf's digital ones for example and i would rather buy that since at heart its not a leica.. there are no brass gears at play internally , batteries yes

leica glass is different on the other hand , all though they can't afford to melt their own glass.

cheers,

Dennis

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by denizg7

when you're buying a digital m at heart its same or worse than a full frame in terms of iso performance. you think buying an m would outlast your life and possibly your childs , a digital m's lcd , sensor these are all made to die quick at heart its japanese no offense but if slrs never came into play , nikon and cannon would still make rf's digital ones for example and i would rather buy that since at heart its not a leica.. there are no brass gears at play internally , batteries yes

leica glass is different on the other hand , all though they can't afford to melt their own glass.

cheers,

Dennis

Dear Dennis,

Well, American, anyway, in the M8-8.2-9. Franco-Belgian in the new Type 240 M.

Cheers,

R.

[theno23]

Re. the handling - I have an M6TTL, and an M9, and I switch between them, they're very, very similar. I took my M9 out of it's box, and I was up and shooting without even thinking about it. It was only after I'd shot for a day that I thought "wait, I didn't have to spend an hour configuring this thing!".

The M9 is slightly larger, and the shutter speed dial feels a bit different, but it's really easy to switch.

The M6 (non TTL) shutter speed dial goes the other direction from the M9 one, and is in a slightly different place, which makes transition a little harder.

- Steve

[steveyork]

I'm a film guy, but if I wanted a digital rangefinder I'd probably go for an ME today. Fortunately, I got all my M mount lenses during the 'dark days,' when prices were somewhat reasonable, but if I wanted a lens today I would probably go for the Zeiss ZM line.

[bonatto]

Thanks for the input guys, went to a dealer this week here in london and tried out (stuck an sd in and my V3 summicron), litterally 2 clicks on both an m9 and an m8.2 so I had absolutely no chance to actually fiddle with settings or compare handling etc. Pleasantly surprised at the output of both for the lackluster photos I took of passerby. One thing that struck me differently is that the bw seemed just a tad richer on the m8.2.

Hated seeing all the purple fringing/CA coming from my summicron, but very impressed at what a smidge of sharpening in lightroom did in terms of resolve on the m9 file.


Now I just need to come up with the cash!

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by bonatto

Thanks for the input guys, went to a dealer this week here in london and tried out (stuck an sd in and my V3 summicron), litterally 2 clicks on both an m9 and an m8.2 so I had absolutely no chance to actually fiddle with settings or compare handling etc. Pleasantly surprised at the output of both for the lackluster photos I took of passerby. One thing that struck me differently is that the bw seemed just a tad richer on the m8.2.

Hated seeing all the purple fringing/CA coming from my summicron, but very impressed at what a smidge of sharpening in lightroom did in terms of resolve on the m9 file.


Now I just need to come up with the cash!

the M8/M8.2 is the better camera if you are going to shoot B&W. i noticed the same when i tested the M8 and M9.......so i saved a lot of money and got an M8.1 (M8U updated to M8.2 spec).....it is SUPERB. Love shooting with it.

You've never had a digital you mentioned right? If i were you, i would get an M8 or M8.2......then see where it takes you after that. You won't be disappointed, especially if you shoot B&W....in fact you're better off if you shoot B&W

the M9 is a great camera....but not worth the price at this time, IMO. the M, on the other hand....is genuinely the way forward......look forward to trying one out.

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

the M8/M8.2 is the better camera if you are going to shoot B&W. i noticed the same when i tested the M8 and M9.......so i saved a lot of money and got an M8.1 (M8U updated to M8.2 spec).....it is SUPERB. Love shooting with it.

You've never had a digital you mentioned right? If i were you, i would get an M8 or M8.2......then see where it takes you after that. You won't be disappointed, especially if you shoot B&W....in fact you're better off if you shoot B&W

the M9 is a great camera....but not worth the price at this time, IMO. the M, on the other hand....is genuinely the way forward......look forward to trying one out.

If you don't want fast wides, the M8 is fine. But I was REALLY glad when the M9 came out as I had been screwing up my courage to buy a 24 Summilux, and I wasn't wild about my 90 Summicron givong the same field of view as a 120, though I do like the 135/2.8 behaving like a 180. The M9 was a much better buy: I just stick my 35 Summilux (and all my other Leica and Leica-fit lenses, from 15 to 135) on the front.

Now, though, if I didn't have an M9, I think I'd find the extra money for the new M type 240.

Cheers,

R.

[ramosa]

I hear the OP on this one, having had an M8 for five years, but wanting to go FF (and recently experimenting with an M6). Here are a couple things to ponder.

First, do you have a strong preference for shooting FF? Such may result from censor size or (as in my case) from a strong favoring of using 28s as 28s, 35s as 35s, etc. If so, you should go FF something (e.g., ME or M9 or M). If not, the M8 is a fine camera, one that still creates great images, especially in B&W (where it may make even better images than the M9).

Second, personally, I wouldn't worry too much about the whole M8 LCD thing. Only some M8s will have this problem and, if they do, Leica will give you an option to upgrade to M9 or ME or whatever. Sure, that will cost some coin, but it negates the possibility of having an M8 paperweight on your hands. If your budget now and in the future would prohibit that upgrade, however, getting an M8 now isn't as good of an idea.