Finally! ~ I bought a "wartime" 1943 CZJ Sonnar T f1.5/50 in LTM

[LeicaTom]

Originally Posted by dexdog

I wonder if this lens has been re-barreled. Serial number checks out against Thiele's CZJ book, but the barrel and engraving look very similar to my 1951 J-9, except that there is no M or m engraved on the distance scale near the 1.7 meter mark. Also. the nose of the lens is silver, like a J-9, not black as typically seen with a CZJ lens of the era. Lastly, the lens bezel is inside the outer ring of the barrel (a gap between the bezel and outer barrel), similar to the postWW2 50/2 Sonnars produced in the Russian zone.

Date wise it is a postwar lens, ca. July/August 1945 made up of the WW2 left over spares for the Russian Occupation Forces.

Most of the original WW2 CZJ LTM Sonnar f2/85's have black painted nose rings and a very small rounded m on the barrel.

I'd like to see what performance (any version) of this lens gives on a Leica M8???? If it's even worth the trouble finding one????

Tom

[digitalintrigue]

Don't know how 'authentic' this lens is, but don't really care.

Wartime red-curtain IIIc with 50/1.5 Jena Sonnar.

[buzzardkid]

Originally Posted by digitalintrigue

Don't know how 'authentic' this is, but don't really care.

Wartime red-curtain IIIc with 50/1.5 Jena Sonnar.

Tell ya this: that ain't no wartime Grip-Tac!



Cool camera none the less! Yours? Happy shooting!

[digitalintrigue]

Heh

Yes indeed, but the authenticity of the lens is what I was referring to, Johan. I've edited the post slightly.

[buzzardkid]

Non-original lens:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Zeiss-S...ht_4184wt_1341


The optical cell might be legit (even though the coating is very blue, typically Russian...) but the barrel shows a red dot for the aperture mark and the big 'M' for meter instead of the small Zeiss 'm'.

This lens maybe was constructed from two lenses, or maybe it still is a complete Jupiter-3 with a Zeiss beauty ring.

Warning!

[S.H.]

Hello,

for a long time I looked for a LTM sonnar, I just bought one some days ago (s/n 2766614) :
ebaysonnar1.JPGebaysonnar2.JPG

Leicashop has currently one too, very similar with also a big screw on the barrel, dated 1946 (?), s/n 2771298 :
leicashop.jpg
See here for the listing.

I still think I got carried on a bit as it is not that cheap (370€ / USD450), I hope it will be usable. As it is a pro seller I could send it back if there is a serious problem. And German sellers tend to be reliable in my experience.

Both serials indicate 1940-42 production, but they look like early jupiters 9 (but not quite : no 'M' nor 'm', no infinity marking, font is not identical, see here). Wonder if this is wartime Zeiss Jena production, or if it is leftover lens cells in immediate postwar barrels (could still be Jena production), like dexdog says.

I never saw a jupiter/sonnar without 'm' or 'M' markings before.

When I have it, if you are interested and if I keep it, I can post shots of and with this lens...

[buzzardkid]

Interesting it is! In my Jupiter-9 with the Zeiss optical block the aperture and infitiy marks are apart but in yours they look to be apart more than in mine, which has its optical Zeiss unit installed into a Jupiter-9 barrel in the factory (little note from the factory stating it's in fact set to 83,7mms was included).
Also, yours has a '7' engraving, which the Leicashop one and mine do not have.

I think yours is a post-war lens that was set to Leica specs (providing it turns out that focusing is correct on Leica) and was completed by not so experienced workers when it comes to engravings.

If it agrees with a Leica, by all means keep it, it's a true transition lens! Nice find!

[S.H.]

I did not spot the "7"! (as in the 7 errors game )

Seems there are as much different barrels as lenses...

[LeicaTom]

S.H.

It seems to me to be a wartime era cell with a postwar barrel, ca. 1947, the lack of m or M is very odd and I doubt that Jena would ever have made such a slip during the War, no matter how crazy things got.

It was made in the early Russian Army Occupation era, the glass is more than likely 100% wartime era glass quality.

As I said a few posts above, I would like to see the performance of this lens on a Leica M8 to see if it's worth going after??? ~ The prices too for the CZJ LTM f2/85 are a little foolish and no one's selling them at the $800 to $1,000 range that you see them posted at evilbay, they are tops $400 lenses, (with OG caps). Wither they are good performers is another story???

I know the Nikkor f2/85 which was the Sonnar copie was like carrying brick on the end of your camera (really bad when it was a LTM one) and even though the Nikkor shot well, it wasn't worth the effort to carry that extra weight and clumsy hood and caps around, I sold mine to a collector......

I have never owned a CZJ f2/85 Sonnar so I cannot speak for the weight or build, but I just KNOW that it's got to be lighter than that Nikkor was!

Tom

[S.H.]

That is what I think myself, a wartime lens cell in a ??? mystery barrel, probably postwar. You are right for the price, however if they do not sell at 800$/€ they rarely appear at all... I also scanned some Westlicht auctions for the past years: nada. And a plain J9 is 150-200€ already . So even if the price was a bit high, I am happy to have found one by a reputable seller in Europe.

I do not always mind bricks : I sometime manage to use a black postwar 18cm sonnar in Flektoscop mount (it has a removable read end in Exakta mount) on a Visoflex III. This is some serious brick-like rig . More seriously, I think brick-wise, my chrome Summicron 90 is much bigger (perhaps not heavier).

I'll post pics, I have a M8. I hope it won't disappoint me. I'll report back when I have it.

Did anyone saw lenses like this one with missing m or infinity marking?

[LeicaTom]

Originally Posted by S.H.

That is what I think myself, a wartime lens cell in a ??? mystery barrel, probably postwar. You are right for the price, however if they do not sell at 800$/€ they rarely appear at all... I also scanned some Westlicht auctions for the past years: nada. And a plain J9 is 150-200€ already . So even if the price was a bit high, I am happy to have found one by a reputable seller in Europe.

I do not always mind bricks : I sometime manage to use a black postwar 18cm sonnar in Flektoscop mount (it has a removable read end in Exakta mount) on a Visoflex III. This is some serious brick-like rig . More seriously, I think brick-wise, my chrome Summicron 90 is much bigger (perhaps not heavier).

I'll post pics, I have a M8. I hope it won't disappoint me. I'll report back when I have it.

Did anyone saw lenses like this one with missing m or infinity marking?

Very kool, can't wait to see what the lens does on a M8.

Tom

[S.H.]

Hello, I received it! Front lens shows slight scratches, coating defects but not much to worry about. The aluminium barrel looked a bit corroded, but it is 60 years worth of grime, this should clean. I'll have to unearth my Nikon to show the numerals on the focusing ring , they are funky and not "Jena style" at all. Post war very likely, or wartime but from the "parts bin" of an apprentice.

Here are some boring tests shots, more or less fully open : http://postimage.org/gallery/xe33ldu/53552ba4/
FYI, I used Capture one, deactivated the accentuation and noise reduction for these tests (just did some levels). I think this lens is quite good, it can probably compare with an old Summicron at full aperture. I'll perhaps test both if I'm too bored some day.

This thing is really DIFFICULT to focus on an M8, even with a magnifier. The RF of the M8 is pushed at its limits. It will be more at home on my M3 (even my III could perhaps fare better).

[LeicaTom]

Just giving folks a heads up this lens is a "hack" non-original LTM lens, what appears to be a Zeiss cell in a Russian mounting........

http://www.ebay.com/itm/carl-zeiss-j...&_qi=RTM839983

[buzzardkid]

Now let's see, what will I sell to fund this...

[dexdog]

Wow, 1947 production!

[buzzardkid]

Yup, I got lucky. I was searching for a related item but ran into this.

Gave it some thought for a few hours but then decided to pull the trigger.

I've got a nice real early Zorki yellow filter in brass rim for it and an old Voigtländer metal hood, and I'll be looking for some vintage looking front and rear caps to go with it.

Anybody got pictures of the correct caps that these lenses came with? Dex, I hope?


I might be selling a very recently acquired Jupiter-3 in Contax mount to fund it. 1953 production and with known provenance... Sigh... Can't have it all.
There's also a nice Leica IIIf case and several filters, some other knick knacks...
It'll have to go but I'll have this beaut to comfort me!

[LeicaTom]

Originally Posted by buzzardkid

Now let's see, what will I sell to fund this...

Ahh very kool, has to be one of the first series of f2's made with Russian markings.

I'm really surprised at the market/collector prices of the 1947 to 1957 Russian Zeiss Sonnar CZJ celled lenses, seems they have all been pushed over the $250+ mark.

I remember when I used to do the open-air Flea Markets in Germany back in the late 80's early 90's I used to see stuff like this for $15 to $25, most people had a stigma about buying old Russian lenses then, I wish I'd known the Zeiss connection then, for an investment of $500 then, I could have had enough lenses to sell and buy an M9 now!!!!! - Geeze what we should have known???? LOL!!!!!

I haven't seen anything "wartime" sell in a decent condition of good price for a long time.

Here's my old CZJ LTM Biogon on the evilbay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Carl-Ze...item3f1b0ee252

It truly is a "collectors only" lens and nothing to use on your day to day shooting, though the glass was very good, with the typical WW2 era cleaning marks, the guy who bought it from me got it for a great price, it's worth what he's asking maybe even a little bit more, while there's maybe less than 5 of these lenses even around still in FEET, but it belongs in a full blown super rare camera collectors collection, something to screw onto a 1945 IIIC K and add a Lyre shaped VOOH and display it in a case.

If the lens hasn't been all taken apart and anything swapped, (when I had it, it was all matching numbers and that rear lens collar is also extremely rare!) ~ that lens all day should be $1,500 to $2,000, but in today's rotten economy nothing is selling for what it's worth...........

Ohh this "wartime" era Biotar f1.5/75 is like ULTRA RARE;

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Zeiss-J...item4167c3beee

That's like 10 times rarer than the LTM Biogon is, only a handfull of these still are around, I've seen TWO sell in the past 15 years, they lay in the $3,000 to $4,000 range, so he's only over by a grand $.

Tom

[buzzardkid]

Original wartime lens cap by Zeiss:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Zeiss-f...ht_1058wt_1398

Price is really high though... That kinda money should get you two of those!

[LeicaTom]

Originally Posted by buzzardkid

Original wartime lens cap by Zeiss:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Zeiss-f...ht_1058wt_1398

Price is really high though... That kinda money should get you two of those!

Yeah, I know the seller, he has a box full of them, they should be like $25 to $35 each, that's what I've paid for the one's I have.....

[xoDox]

Originally Posted by buzzardkid

Now let's see, what will I sell to fund this...

Great find! Although, I doubt a bit in it's authentity since up to 1949 all ZK 50mm f/2 in LTM were collapsible and this one looks as rigid. Most likely, the original (Zeiss/Kiev) mount ZK was implanted into LTM mount based on Jupi-8. This is just a guess, a pic from aside would help. The beauty ring is fine with early "coffin" logo for KMZ. I have no doubt it's a ZK!
Cheers,
Vassily

[xoDox]

Also, all ZK 50mm f/2 come with a focusing lever, perhaps it's on the opposite side of your pic so we'll never see it )! Anyway, it's a part of ZK construction. I've never seen ZK from 1947, this should be a very rare find; so, please be aware of fakes! ZK lenses bring quite a premium price!
Best,
Vassily

[LeicaTom]

Here's another look at what the 1943 LTM CZJ Sonnar f1.5/50 does shot *wide open* on the Leica M8 (with IR/Cut filter).

All pics are straight out of the camera with some slight channeling, but no photoshop or sharpening etc., not too bad for a 69 year old lens..........

Tom

[LeicaTom]

And here's some Blk N' Wht shots, right out of the camera again with some slight channeling, but no photoshop or sharpening etc.























I wish I could test this lens on a M9, there's NO DEALERS selling Leica near where I live and it's like a 4.5 hour drive south to Miami to a camera shop that still have them, I suppose that they will all be gone, from dealers before the end of the year due to the new Leica M (stupid name) they should have kept with the numerical sequence of numbers and called the new one M10 while there's going to be enough confusion with that Leica Monochrome M (another really stupid idea) I still don't think that Leica has grabbed the ball and come up with a winner yet, the Leica M8 and I have had a "Love-Hate" relationship since the start, even though I know the camera well and have been shooting with it now for over 3 years, I have never really *bonded* with it as I have like with my Leica M film cameras......

Well, if there's anyone near Orlando or Tampa Florida on here who has a LEICA M9 please let me know, I have some very kool old lenses to let you test and I might just bring a sexy PinUp model with me too.....

Enjoy!

Tom

[buzzardkid]

Originally Posted by xoDox

Also, all ZK 50mm f/2 come with a focusing lever, perhaps it's on the opposite side of your pic so we'll never see it )! Anyway, it's a part of ZK construction. I've never seen ZK from 1947, this should be a very rare find; so, please be aware of fakes! ZK lenses bring quite a premium price!
Best,
Vassily

Hi Vassily,

Thanks for posting! It does have a focusing lever. The eBay item nr was 271045601092 and there's more pictures with it.

The number is very early, within the first 1,000. Maybe it was a rigid prototype

Once the lens arrives I can have a look and see if it's a remount. Maybe there will be something that tells it.

[xoDox]

Originally Posted by buzzardkid

Hi Vassily,

Thanks for posting! It does have a focusing lever. The eBay item nr was 271045601092 and there's more pictures with it.

The number is very early, within the first 1,000. Maybe it was a rigid prototype

Once the lens arrives I can have a look and see if it's a remount. Maybe there will be something that tells it.

Thanks. I checked those pictures of your ZK, it' s exactly what I said. The early ZK in Zeiss mount was implanted into Jupi-8 shell from the 50's. The original collapsible ZK 5cm f/2 in LTM are in the range of 500 USD!
This Socrat-fellow knows quite well what he is selling and makes a price tag accordingly. Still this is a great glass to shoot with if it doesn't need any adjustments

Vassily