Help resolve a tie...

[DRDDR]

I really need some help to stop me oscillating between choices...
Firstly, as this is my first post, a tiny bit of background. I grew up using film cameras, an old Praktica SLR to be precise. I really enjoyed using that great lump of a camera and while none of the images I ever took as a kid could be described as 'fine art', they are cherished family images and hold a lot of memories of times and people from the past - which is all I really expect from my photography.


Fast forward a few years and after the demise of old Praktica, I find myself having gone through numerous cheap and not always so cheap digicams, none of which have been particularly fun nor enjoyable. Along the way I've gather a wife and a new son and I'm crucially aware that my current digicam, with its flaky autofocus and non-existent low(ish) light capabilities are causing me to lose moments of my son's early life that I'd rather weren't consigned to the vagaries of memory and so I'd like to make a replacement.


Now I've pondered long and hard over what to get. The logical choice is one of the Nikon DSLRs D6/7/800, I'm certain, would be way more than enough for anything I could throw at them and would last for many years. However, I've fiddled with the D7/800 and really found the whole exercise, well, cumbersome - there were too many buttons and too many flashing lights for me to feel comfortable with the device. Also, the sheer size of the thing reminded me of the only bad aspect of that old Praktica - carrying the things around became a pain in the neck (literally as well as figuratively).


The Fuji X-Pro 1 seems to offer what I'm looking for. Certainly in terms of IQ, it's way up there and although it isn't small, it's clearly a lot better than one of the mighty Nikons. Trouble is, there's a fly in the ointment - a while ago, when I was on a business trip to New York I wandered into B+H and there I fondled a Zeiss Ikon...


I don't really know what it was, but I felt an attachment to that little camera, I instinctively knew how to use it, although I'd never seen one before and the act of bringing the camera to my eye and actually (gasp!) focussing brought back so many memories of what I enjoyed about photography from the past. The trouble is, I can't help thinking that that's exactly what the Ikon is, a bit of relic from a bygone age; perhaps soon even to be rendered an ornament by the lack of film to feed it. And yet, every time I go to order the Fuji from Amazon, I'm drawn to the fotoversand website, where there sits the Ikon, waiting so patiently.


Any thoughts on how to break the tie between heart and mind...


Cheers


Dan

[ruby.monkey]

Get the Zeiss and pair it with a Canon S100 for when you need the convenience of digital. I mean, you want the Ikon; anything else you buy will feel like second best.

[thegman]

At some point, film cameras, unfortunately, might have no film to put in them. However, those days are quite some time away, and in that time, any digital camera you buy now will likely not even work, let alone be worth anything.

The cameras you're talking about are so different that none of us can really point you in the right direction, only you know what you really want. I can only tell you what works for me.

For me, if I needed to take photos regularly, and for other people, then digital makes sense. However, I take photos for pleasure, with no outside demands on what photos I take, or how often I take them. For that, film works so much better for me.

For sheer photographic pleasure, I much prefer film, but of course many will disagree. You have to decide if you're OK with the ongoing cost of film, the waiting around for processing (or do it yourself), and not being able to chimp. I like the delayed gratification, but you may not. I don't shoot enough for the extra cost to be an issue, you might.

For me, the choice between an Ikon and a X-Pro 1 is an easy win for the Ikon, but it's not me buying, it's you, and you need to think about what you actually *want*. If you buy based on what anyone here thinks, you'll probably get the wrong thing.

[daveywaugh]

Photography is all about emotion ;-) so follow your heart. The Ikon will hold its value well so if you decide you need digital down the track you're not behind the 8-ball. Enjoy. That would be my thought anyway.

[boomguy57]

Get the Zeiss. If in a year you want the XP1, it will be half the price it is now, if not less. The Zeiss likely won't depreciate a whole lot beyond what it already sells for (used).

As another poster said, there may come a day down the road when there is no film to shoot anymore. But that day, if it ever comes, is a long time away. Shoot some film. Someday you may have to explain to your grandkids what it is.

[mfogiel]

Think a while about your preferred output: B&W or colour, and about your preferred genre: street&travel or portraits? In the first case, ZI or a Leica will work extremely well, and you will develop a new way of seeing. However, if you like colour and portraiture, simply buy whatever DSLR you like - even these from 5 years ago are more than enough for anybody.

[Griffin]

Get the ZI. I've had a Bessa R2 since just before my son was born and it's more than adequate for documenting this little man (he's two now). The ZI has auto-exposure I believe, which makes it even easier. Just focus and shoot! It'll give you so much more fulfillment than some digi point and shoot which will be outclassed after six months of its release.

The drawback? You can't take closeup head shots of him drooling tri-colored snot because of minimum focus distance.

[jkrumsick]

Have you tried a used Leica m6?

That's next on my list... A lot of guys say great things about the Ikon but the M6 is less money and a step up in quality

[back alley]

i notice that many folks with small, quick moving children eventually get a fast af digital...

[Vics]

My son has two very fast moving kids and in his digi pics, the kids are usually half out of the frame. My Leica M3 pictures always show the entire kid. I think you'd love a Leica M6. Check out the classified ads on this site.

[back alley]

that's why you need fast af...

[zsas]

What about something in the middle, a Contax G2? A body and one lens (45 or 28) are found in the 800ish range. Works great with my kids!

What about that new Sony RX1 if you are going to think digi?

[misterbill7718]

Get the Ikon and start a collection of good glass. In a few months time the new Fuji X-mount camera will hit the market for about $1000, or a few hundred more with their new "kit" zoom. It will be able to work (using an adapter) with all your nifty RF glass you will grow to love on the Ikon, and also take an AF lens for times when the kids are moving fast. Yes, it is a "crop sensor", but the high ISO performance and image-quality are on par with the X-Pro-1, or even better. The one drawback is no optical viewfinder, but remember the optical viewfinder for the X-Pro-1 is useless for manual focusing, you will need to use the electronic LCD viewfinder for your manual focus glass. In that case the new Fuji has a vastly superior viewfinder that will be the only one you use when you mount your manual glass to capture your truly special images. Overall you will be spending only slightly more for a dual film/digital system (without RF glass cost) vs. an X-Pro-1 with a single lens. Throw in a decent used Zeiss 35 or 50mm and you are probably in the $3K range overall for a very nice and versatile package.

[thegman]

Originally Posted by jkrumsick

Have you tried a used Leica m6?

That's next on my list... A lot of guys say great things about the Ikon but the M6 is less money and a step up in quality

A used M6 is cheaper than a new Ikon, but that's not a like for like comparison. A second user Ikon will be a lot cheaper than a second user M6, at least it was for me, and still appears to be here in the UK. I bought my Ikon for £550, and my M6 for about £850 if I recall.

Personally I preferred the ZI, but it's a personal choice if ever there was one.

[thegman]

One more point for the OP, it's popular wisdom that film is best for B&W and digital best for colour. Personally, I can sometimes feel the opposite. Digital for B&W is so clean and sharp, and colour from Velvia is amazing. Again, it's a completely personal choice.

[DRDDR]

Firstly, I'd like to say 'thank you' to everyone who responded. I guess I stacked the cards in favour of the Ikon by posting in this forum; possibly the answer would have been different if I'd moved it to the X-Pro1 section? Nonetheless, a lot of your comments have echoed the thoughts that have been going through my mind for a while; shoot film while I can, which may be for some considerable time yet and if/when that ends, I'll still have some beautiful lenses to pair with whatever is around at the time.


For those members advocating the Leica M6 route, believe me, I've pondered that one hard too. However, I'd like to be the first owner of the camera and say that it's 'mine' and sadly, the only way to do that with a red-dot on the front is far beyond my means. Besides, I think the aperture-priority of the Ikon will be useful, it should certainly simplify handing the camera over to someone else; should I ever want a picture of me.


So that leaves a slightly different question, which is where to buy a new Ikon? The Fotoversand website (http://www.fotoversand-afa.de/digita...schwarzset.php) has the camera and Sonnar for vastly less than I can buy them here in the UK (the camera's practically free!) However, as I've always been a believer in 'if it looks too good to be true', I'm a bit concerned that there's something I'm not seeing. Has anyone here dealt with them, are they reliable and is there any issue with things like warranties? I can't imagine that there should be, we're all in the EU together (right?), but it'd be good to know.


Cheers,


Daniel

[ruby.monkey]

Originally Posted by back alley

i notice that many folks with small, quick moving children eventually get a fast af digital...

... or duck tape.

[rxmd]

AFA Fotoversand is a fairly established dealer that tends to get good reviews on websites. For EU shipments they request payment before delivery (either bank transfer or PayPal).

As usual when making online orders in Germany, you get the right to return the product with no questions asked, within a 14-day period starting from the receipt of the product.

According to their terms of service, as a private buyer you get the usual two-year warranty from AFA Fotoversand. On this camera you also get a three-year warranty from Zeiss Germany, for which you'll need to register the camera with Zeiss after the purchase. It's a bit unclear whether Zeiss will honour this warranty if you send it to a representative in the UK for repairs, but they should honour it if you send it to Zeiss Germany.

[Pastor Chris]

It seems like you are trying to talk yourself out of the Zeiss and into the Fuji. I say go with the Zeiss.

[kram]

If the camera feels good in the hands, get it. My favorite cameras are the ones which are easy to use. With a 35mm or wider lens, I find it is just as easy to pre focus some times. With AF, the object the camera is focusing on, is not always what you want.

[segedi]

The price on the set is certainly good! I also vote for the Ikon. I've all but quit using my DSLR in favor of the simplicity of rangefinders.

[Griffin]

Yeah, sharp pictures of fast-moving kids are vastly overrated.

[italy74]

+1 to get the Ikon

let me show you one thing. I don't want to hijack this thread (also it would be off topic, plus it's "digital"), just to show you I could take this with a manual focusing lens, a 100mm
If I took this, you can do that as well. Get a wide angle, work with hyperfocal and shoot. That's easier than you think and Zeiss, Leica and Voigtlander have plenty of choices from 15 to 35 mm as you like.

1/1000s - F/11

[jtm6]

Originally Posted by boomguy57

Get the Zeiss. If in a year you want the XP1, it will be half the price it is now, if not less. The Zeiss likely won't depreciate a whole lot beyond what it already sells for (used).

As another poster said, there may come a day down the road when there is no film to shoot anymore. But that day, if it ever comes, is a long time away. Shoot some film. Someday you may have to explain to your grandkids what it is.

I agree. I wouldn't be surprised if the expiration date on a new box of film bought today isn't past the date the XP-1 will be discontinued. Of course the XP-1 will still take great pictures, but I think the film camera will, too.

As someone else said, get the one you want and pair it with a small digital compact for those shots where you need AF and/or the benefits of film. Check out some of the Sony rx100 picture threads. That little thing is amazing. I think back alley (who contributed on this thread) was one person who started a thread with some great photographs.

[Peter_S]

Originally Posted by DRDDR

So that leaves a slightly different question, which is where to buy a new Ikon? The Fotoversand website (http://www.fotoversand-afa.de/digita...schwarzset.php) has the camera and Sonnar for vastly less than I can buy them here in the UK (the camera's practically free!) However, as I've always been a believer in 'if it looks too good to be true', I'm a bit concerned that there's something I'm not seeing. Has anyone here dealt with them, are they reliable and is there any issue with things like warranties? I can't imagine that there should be, we're all in the EU together (right?), but it'd be good to know.

I bought three ZM lenses from them, with no problems whatsoever. The price they offer is very good, but I have seen deals on ZMs like that before. So all good!
Get the Ikon. I had one, marvelous camera. You will enjoy it.