Arghhh - Rodinal gone bad!

[Roger Vadim]

Something what should never happened (if you believe the internet) actually happened: Rodinal died sudenly. (NO not Xtol)

To be precise: not Rodinal but the - supposedly same formula: Adolux APH09. The bottle (1 liter from Fotoimpex) was about 4 1/2 years old and two thirds empty.

Just souped 5 films (APX 100) in it - 1:40 as recommended and they came out totally blank! Not even the rebate with the numbers is visible.

Total bummer! All my pics from a hilarious 3 day trip to Athens are lost. and I've now got 5 sad clear filmstrips hanging in the bathroom. That truly sucks!

So be aware: R09 goes bad, and when it dies it dies totally. I found this thread where the dutch distributer claims that the shelf life of R09 is just 1.5 years in bottles without any air in it!

http://photo.net/black-and-white-pho...g-forum/00PM3a

This is the danger with Internet myths (Rodinal and R09 / APH09 are the same and they NEVER go bad...) WRONG !

Be careful, its a dangerous world out there...

apendix: just checked with the film leader - developed & fixed in daylight (should come out black) - completely blank...

grrrrmbl
Michael

[John Bragg]

I can tell by the 1:40 dilution that your R09 is the older formulation and not the current offering now sold as R09 which is in fact the later branding of Rodinal as made in Germany. German Rodinal has a 1:50 dilution and is a lot more durable. Just to confuse it is now sold as R09 "Made in Germany".

[Jaans]

Originally Posted by Roger Vadim

Something what should never happened (if you believe the internet) actually happened: Rodinal died sudenly. (NO not Xtol)

To be precise: not Rodinal but the - supposedly same formula: Adolux APH09. The bottle (1 liter from Fotoimpex) was about 4 1/2 years old and two thirds empty.

Just souped 5 films (APX 100) in it - 1:40 as recommended and they came out totally blank! Not even the rebate with the numbers is visible.

Total bummer! All my pics from a hilarious 3 day trip to Athens are lost. and I've now got 5 sad clear filmstrips hanging in the bathroom. That truly sucks!

So be aware: R09 goes bad, and when it dies it dies totally. I found this thread where the dutch distributer claims that the shelf life of R09 is just 1.5 years in bottles without any air in it!

http://photo.net/black-and-white-pho...g-forum/00PM3a

This is the danger with Internet myths (Rodinal and R09 / APH09 are the same and they NEVER go bad...) WRONG !

Be careful, its a dangerous world out there...

apendix: just checked with the film leader - developed & fixed in daylight (should come out black) - completely blank...

grrrrmbl
Michael

You have to take into account that the new formulas of Rodinal don't have the legendary longevity/keeping of the old formula. So, I experienced developer failure with a bottle that had been 3/4 used and 1 year old. The cap was on tight but I think once you open the bottle, oxidisation will occur a lot faster.

You said that your bottle was 4 and 1/2 years old - there is no way in this world that I would put my important film into any chemical that is that old without testing a practice roll. I've also had a 1 year bottle of fixer go bad that had been half used and left in a hot room after only 1 year as well.

The way I see it, a lot of photographers (I'm not finger pointing here, just making a general statement) spend a lot of money on expensive gear, then skimp on fresh chemicals and film. It should be in reverse.

Perhaps the new formula of Rodinal is like a lot of modern electronic gadgets that have a short life span and are expected to be replaced or updated after only a couple of years. It could be an another indication that we are truely part of the modern world.

[Roger Vadim]

Jaaans, I do develop a lot of film, and normally not cheapskate on developer - for the occasional roll of APX in Rodinal I had this bottle & the wisdom I've heard from everywhere was that it lasts "forever". My bad.

After some reading I found out that the formula of all this "09" Rodinal clones resembles Rodinal, but they use different stabilizers or QC - so from now on just the original - oh wait, it doesn't exist anymore...
Any comments on which of the new stuff is the god stuff? Adonal?

[loquax ludens]

Hmmm. I've got an entire liter of APH 09 that is probably six years old. I haven't used it in at least 4 years. I just got into an HC110 and Pyrocat HD habit and quit using the APH 09.

According to the Adox site, the shelf life of the Adolux APH 09 concentrate is "up to 50 years".


Thanks for the heads up. I'll test my APH 09 before I commit any important film to it.

Sorry to hear of your bad experience.

[znapper]

Now I'm confused.....!

So, can Jaans and John please battle it out, which is which, John says the new one is more durable, Jaans say the new formula isn't as durable as the old one.

I have what I (now) think is Rodinal, the real rodinal, the rodinal that you can store and abuse and that "never" dies on you.
It says on the bottle :

R09 One shot 500 ml
B&W film developer

It indicates 1+25 and 1+50
"Made in germany"

This: http://shop.fotoimport.no/analoge-fo...r09-500ml-agfa


The product link from my shop takes me here:
http://www.novadarkroom.com/product/...Developer.html

Now, in all this confusion; What is it and how long will it last me?
- I've developed this using 1+25 and 1+50 and the Rodinal times on MDC with great success. So, is it the real McCoy, or is it the lousy one that will suck when you need it the most ?

[Keith]

I just bought a bottle of Adonal and tried it for the first time yesterday and have finally managed to get HP5+ to give me the look I was searching for. After some frustration with HC110 and Xtol it amazes me that this formula constantly seems to give me what I want ... with almost any film.

Welcome back grain!

As for how long it may keep ... ???

[loquax ludens]

The OP is using the terms "Rodinal", "R09", and "APH 09" as though they were all the same. They aren't, actually. I have read that R09 and APH 09 are the same, made by Calbe and based on the original Rodinal formula. But Agfa Rodinal has evolved from the original recipe and has a different formulation. It is similar to, but not the same as the ones that claim to be "original".

[John Bragg]

To clear any confusion, "Proper" Rodinal, the sort with the legendary keeping properties is now sold as R09 Made in Germany and has 1:25 and 1:50 dilution options. It is highly confusing since there is a heap of older Calbe and Adox R09 still in circulation with 1:20 and 1:40 dilution options. However all supplies are now harmonised despite labeling and "FRESH" stocks will ONLY say 1:25 and 1:50. It is entirely to do with the rights to the name Rodinal and the ownership of said name which no longer resides with the owner of the manufacturing plant. If there is any doubt what so ever in anyones mind, please do a clip test before commiting a valuable film. Use the leader and develop in a dish in daylight and fix. If it doesnt go black, don't use the developer.

[John Bragg]

Originally Posted by Keith

I just bought a bottle of Adonal and tried it for the first time yesterday and have finally managed to get HP5+ to give me the look I was searching for. After some frustration with HC110 and Xtol it amazes me that this formula constantly seems to give me what I want ... with almost any film.

Welcome back grain!

As for how long it may keep ... ???

Hi Keith.

If it says 1:25 and 1:50 and made in Germany, you are safe. The dodgy stuff says 1:20 and 1:40.

[haempe]

Originally Posted by John Bragg

...
If it says 1:25 and 1:50 and made in Germany, you are safe. The dodgy stuff says 1:20 and 1:40.

Usually, but not always.
Adox APH09 ist similar to the old Calbe formula, just with strenght (dilution/time) adapted to the dilution/times of Rodinal/Adonal (new formula).

But I don't know, if the formulation makes the difference.
I have never experienced a death of Rodinal...
I use a bottle of 25 years old Orwo R09 at the moment, works fine as far...

[John Bragg]

Originally Posted by haempe

Usually, but not always.
Adox APH09 ist similar to the old Calbe formula, just with strenght (dilution/time) adapted to the dilution/times of Rodinal/Adonal (new formula).

Thanks for the info. (My current bottle of Rodinal is only 17 years old).

[Jaans]

Originally Posted by Roger Vadim

Jaaans, I do develop a lot of film, and normally not cheapskate on developer - for the occasional roll of APX in Rodinal I had this bottle & the wisdom I've heard from everywhere was that it lasts "forever". My bad.

After some reading I found out that the formula of all this "09" Rodinal clones resembles Rodinal, but they use different stabilizers or QC - so from now on just the original - oh wait, it doesn't exist anymore...
Any comments on which of the new stuff is the god stuff? Adonal?

Roger: Like i said I wasn't pointing fingers, I was just making a general statement. Actually, I also had the same experience, but with a bottle that was only 1 and half years old. I broke my rule and used it without checking and lost 2 films that were extremely underdeveloped.

I think that it is fair to say now that we should probably treat this new recipe of Rodinal (whatever incarnation it takes) like other chemicals and just use when fresh.

[Jaans]

Originally Posted by znapper

Now I'm confused.....!

So, can Jaans and John please battle it out, which is which, John says the new one is more durable, Jaans say the new formula isn't as durable as the old one.

I have what I (now) think is Rodinal, the real rodinal, the rodinal that you can store and abuse and that "never" dies on you.
It says on the bottle :

R09 One shot 500 ml
B&W film developer

It indicates 1+25 and 1+50
"Made in germany"

This: http://shop.fotoimport.no/analoge-fo...r09-500ml-agfa


The product link from my shop takes me here:
http://www.novadarkroom.com/product/...Developer.html

Now, in all this confusion; What is it and how long will it last me?
- I've developed this using 1+25 and 1+50 and the Rodinal times on MDC with great success. So, is it the real McCoy, or is it the lousy one that will suck when you need it the most ?

The R09 One shot "Made in Germany" bottle that you have, is the one that failed on me after only a year and a half. The bottle was a third full if memory serves me correctly and the room was hot in summer which probably accelerated this degenerative process. However, I always kept the lid on tight, so it is safe to say that it wasn't my error (except leaving it in the hot room).

What I mean is that this one shot R09 you and I have uses the same times and dilution as the original ancient Rodinal recipe BUT in my opinion and experience it doesn't exhibit the legendary keeping properties of the ancient formula (I'm using the word ancient for want of a better word - there are just so many different formulas floating around!^)

I hope this makes sense. The funny thing is that there is so much conjecture on ther net about the variations in the different brands. I'm sure there is a PHD paper waiting to be written by someone who is scientifically minded to clear up all of this conjecture between the different brands.

At the end of the day, it is quite fun trying to make sense of it all and reminds me why I shoot film to begin with. You could never get this same fascinating plotline with a memory card

[tic]

I suggest changing the title of the thread to Adox APH09 gone bad...

[Jack Conrad]

Sure you didn't develop with fixer and fix with developer?
I've done that and the film was stripped clear just like yours.

[znapper]

Originally Posted by Jaans

The R09 One shot "Made in Germany" bottle that you have, is the one that failed on me after only a year and a half. The bottle was a third full if memory serves me correctly and the room was hot in summer which probably accelerated this degenerative process. However, I always kept the lid on tight, so it is safe to say that it wasn't my error (except leaving it in the hot room).

What I mean is that this one shot R09 you and I have uses the same times and dilution as the original ancient Rodinal recipe BUT in my opinion and experience it doesn't exhibit the legendary keeping properties of the ancient formula (I'm using the word ancient for want of a better word - there are just so many different formulas floating around!^)

I hope this makes sense. The funny thing is that there is so much conjecture on ther net about the variations in the different brands. I'm sure there is a PHD paper waiting to be written by someone who is scientifically minded to clear up all of this conjecture between the different brands.

At the end of the day, it is quite fun trying to make sense of it all and reminds me why I shoot film to begin with. You could never get this same fascinating plotline with a memory card

Thank you for your reply.

I find this very strang though, because the product page on Nova Darkroom says about this bottle:

"R09 One Shot (Agfa Rodinal The 1891 formulation world famous Rodinal one shot Film Developer suitable for all film types - For maximum contour sharpness and maximum film speed. Contrast can be varied by dilution of the concentrate. Dilution 1:25, 1:50 1:75 or 1+100.
Long-life liquid concentrate.
Identical formula and manufacturing as Agfa Rodinal."

[loquax ludens]

I'm going to test my APH 09 tonight and see if it is still active.

If anyone does ever write a book or research paper that straightens out all the confusion over the history, names, and formula variations of Rodinal, I'm sure it'll be on the darkroom enthusiast's best seller's list. That is doubtless a huge market. It should sell several copies. :-)

[Fotohuis]

Adolux APH09 comes from Calbe and is R09. They changed the concentration of the formulae so it's also 1+25 and 1+50 now. Very confusing to Adolux and Rodinal/R09 one shot which is original (Agfa) Rodinal 1+25 and 1+50 in the regular dilution.
APH09 and Calbe R09 has a limited life span. Adolux and R09 one shot unlimited.
But after 5 years the activity is going to be slightly less when I look for the same film/batch on my densitometer.

So you're warned about above failure of APH09/R09.

Robert

(indeed, Dutch distributor of Rodinal)

[pdh]

The Adox website quotes a shelf life of 50 years for APH 09.

[johannielscom]

Originally Posted by pdh

The Adox website quotes a shelf life of 50 years for APH 09.

That stuff is positively going to outlast me then. I'd better stock up some of that APH09!

[ColSebastianMoran]

Originally Posted by Roger Vadim

Just souped 5 films (APX 100) in it - 1:40 as recommended and they came out totally blank! Not even the rebate with the numbers is visible. ...

Just to be sure we have reliable data: Roger, if you still have the bottle, would you try to test suggested. Try developing a short piece of leader.

I'm very surprised that your developer would fail completely, leaving your film absolutely blank.

What was that phrase? Something like, 'Inquiring minds want to know.'

[john_s]

Originally Posted by John Bragg

Thanks for the info. (My current bottle of Rodinal is only 17 years old).

In the last few years of Agfa Rodinal they altered the formula (the Agfa accountants, not the photo chemists). They reduced the concentration of the rather cheap developing agent p-aminophenol and bumped up the amount of hydroxide (even cheaper). This led to similar developing action when new but poorer keeping qualities. Maybe your 17 year old bottle (which might have been on the shelf for a while when you bought it) is real Rodinal.

[Fotohuis]

The last change in Agfa Rodinal/R09 one shot was around 1992. In 2004 Agfa photo division went to Agfa Photo together with the chemical plant in Vaihingen-Enz. In 2005/2006 Agfa Photo went belly up and one year later the plant was sold to A&O. Two years later it was sold again to CCP&S the actual owner of the plant. Apart from photo chemicals they are producing pharmaceutical materials.
The packing is done by Compard in Hamburg (Germany).
It's done under a Nitrogen stream. In this way original Rodinal/R09 one shot is pretty clear.
Calbe R09/APH09 is packed without Nitrogen. It's already dark like Coke. Again: THIS version has a limited lifespan.

If you're using up he whole concentrate within two years or so, it doesn't matter what version you're using because the differences in development are rather small.

If you want to pay the smallest price: R09 Calbe / APH09 is your choice.
If you want to go for safety and an unlimited lifetime: Rodinal/R09 one shot or Adonal is the way to go. On the bottle of R09 one shot is written in small letters, made by CCP&S and it's the original Rodinal formulae.

[John Bragg]

Originally Posted by Fotohuis

The last change in Agfa Rodinal/R09 one shot was around 1992. In 2004 Agfa photo division went to Agfa Photo together with the chemical plant in Vaihingen-Enz. In 2005/2006 Agfa Photo went belly up and one year later the plant was sold to A&O. Two years later it was sold again to CCP&S the actual owner of the plant. Apart from photo chemicals they are producing pharmaceutical materials.
The packing is done by Compard in Hamburg (Germany).
It's done under a Nitrogen stream. In this way original Rodinal/R09 one shot is pretty clear.
Calbe R09/APH09 is packed without Nitrogen. It's already dark like Coke. Again: THIS version has a limited lifespan.

If you're using up he whole concentrate within two years or so, it doesn't matter what version you're using because the differences in development are rather small.

If you want to pay the smallest price: R09 Calbe / APH09 is your choice.
If you want to go for safety and an unlimited lifetime: Rodinal/R09 one shot or Adonal is the way to go. On the bottle of R09 one shot is written in small letters, made by CCP&S and it's the original Rodinal formulae.

Thanks for clearing that up Robert.