Leica+Fuji?

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by Ryan1938

A friend of mine mentioned some rumors floating around fuji USA. He's heard the adaptor will launch with a firmware update that places a digital overlay on the ovf that includes a rangefinder patch.

I don't at all get how that would work from a tech standpoint. Not sure I buy it.

I have no idea if it will work, but if it does... my goodness, I'll make a mess in my pants.

[f16sunshine]

Originally Posted by Ryan1938

A friend of mine mentioned some rumors floating around fuji USA. He's heard the adaptor will launch with a firmware update that places a digital overlay on the ovf that includes a rangefinder patch.

I don't at all get how that would work from a tech standpoint. Not sure I buy it.

It seems if that were true, Fuji would have at the very least leaked it by now if not outright advertised the fact.
That would be a major feature and sales tool.

[dct]

Originally Posted by Ryan1938

A friend of mine mentioned some rumors floating around fuji USA. He's heard the adaptor will launch with a firmware update that places a digital overlay on the ovf that includes a rangefinder patch.

I don't at all get how that would work from a tech standpoint. Not sure I buy it.

Lets apart if this is true rumor or not. But from a technical point of view, it is very possible to simulate what you mention.
Provided you gauge the focus information you get from every LTM/M lens with RF coupling cam. This can be done mechanically (the classic way) or with a non-contact measuring device in the XF/M adapter. The remaining engineering work is "only" software (combining this lens information with the AF metering system and displaying a useful graph into the OVF).
Not impossible, but if they really would... Oh my dreams!
This would bring Fuji to lead the M capable digital body crowd.
Or did this information leak from the M10 environment?

[willie_901]

Originally Posted by f16sunshine

It seems if that were true, Fuji would have at the very least leaked it by now if not outright advertised the fact.
That would be a major feature and sales tool.

Maybe... on the other hand Fuji can slowly ramp up production to meet the anticipated demand; go through several firmware improvements, and sell quite a few XF lenses.

Leaking it early puts pressure on everyone and raises expectations. A suprise like we're speculating about could have a significant impact. Maybe Fuji feels they better really get it right as they will only have one chance with M lens owners. After all there are lots of different cam mechanisms and the cam can be out of adjustment. I can just imagine the outrage from some M lens users whoose out of spec cam mechanism causes problems. The firmware would have to work well with many focal lengths. If Fuji implements in-camera corrections for wide angle lenses, which lenses do they support and how many do you support before you release the product?

Developing a useful smart M adapter seems practical and very complicated at the same time.

[Griffin]

Couldn't the rangefinder patch be a small image coming from the live view? The triangulation would be then between the lens/sensor and the OVF. Although not horizontally aligned, a triangle is still a triangle right? Then when you move the cam in and out, the image in the evf patch will move left and right (probably diagonally up and down?) according to probably a lens specific formula.

I can imagine mounting any given rangefinder lens and the camera will ask you to focus first to infinity and then to the minimum distance, whereby you enter into the camera what the minimum focus distance is on the lens. Thus the formula is created, probably in conjunction with the focal length of the lens.

[loneranger]

Originally Posted by Griffin

Then when you move the cam in and out,

What "CAM" are you talking about?

[Griffin]

Well, there would have to be a cam follower inside the adapter in order to read the lens focussing position. I meant that cam, sorry.

[Ryan1938]

Man... Fuji could demand some serious $$$$ for an adapter so capable. I "shutter" at the thought of what I might spend for one.

[Dante_Stella]

There is nothing to stop projecting a real-time, even magnified live view in a small centered box while the OVF is in use. The OVF overlay can project some incredible daylight contrast, so there would be no reason to close the front VF blind.

What you are describing below would work with phase-detect AF but not the current hardware. With phase-detect, the camera could tell you what direction to turn the lens ring (just like using manual lenses on an AF D/SLR). CDAF requires the camera to go past the focused point and come back to it. Not so practical for manual lenses.

Dante

Originally Posted by Griffin

Couldn't the rangefinder patch be a small image coming from the live view? The triangulation would be then between the lens/sensor and the OVF. Although not horizontally aligned, a triangle is still a triangle right? Then when you move the cam in and out, the image in the evf patch will move left and right (probably diagonally up and down?) according to probably a lens specific formula.

I can imagine mounting any given rangefinder lens and the camera will ask you to focus first to infinity and then to the minimum distance, whereby you enter into the camera what the minimum focus distance is on the lens. Thus the formula is created, probably in conjunction with the focal length of the lens.

[scho]

Originally Posted by Dante_Stella

There is nothing to stop projecting a real-time, even magnified live view in a small centered box while the OVF is in use. The OVF overlay can project some incredible daylight contrast, so there would be no reason to close the front VF blind.

What you are describing below would work with phase-detect AF but not the current hardware. With phase-detect, the camera could tell you what direction to turn the lens ring (just like using manual lenses on an AF D/SLR). CDAF requires the camera to go past the focused point and come back to it. Not so practical for manual lenses.

Dante

Isn't that what focus peaking (as in Sony and Ricoh versions) does with contrast detect for MF lenses?

[fixed point]

I wonder if Fuji's delay in releasing the adapter has anything to do with Leica's (rumored) upcoming mirrorless announcement? Maybe this technology is something the companies partnered on and will release simultaneously (or Leica first)?

[JHutchins]

Originally Posted by scho

Isn't that what focus peaking (as in Sony and Ricoh versions) does with contrast detect for MF lenses?

Searching for the point where contrast is maximized is a different problem from identifying the parts of the image with maximal contrast.

[gDallasK]

Originally Posted by fixed point

I wonder if Fuji's delay in releasing the adapter has anything to do with Leica's (rumored) upcoming mirrorless announcement? Maybe this technology is something the companies partnered on and will release simultaneously (or Leica first)?

Seriously doubt this given Leica's long standing partnership with Panasonic. However, if I were Fuji, I would get my announcement in first to stave off the possibility that we all dump our XP1s on eBay to raise cash for the next big thing from Leica. I know I'm weak ..... I've done this before!

[Griffin]

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/leic...i-partnership/

[Paul T.]

Originally Posted by Griffin

Couldn't the rangefinder patch be a small image coming from the live view? The triangulation would be then between the lens/sensor and the OVF. Although not horizontally aligned, a triangle is still a triangle right? Then when you move the cam in and out, the image in the evf patch will move left and right (probably diagonally up and down?) according to probably a lens specific formula.

I can imagine mounting any given rangefinder lens and the camera will ask you to focus first to infinity and then to the minimum distance, whereby you enter into the camera what the minimum focus distance is on the lens. Thus the formula is created, probably in conjunction with the focal length of the lens.

I think what Dante suggests is something different.

Yes, it would be possible to have a projected 'rangefinder' patch moving across the VF frame, like a trangulated rangefinder, if you have a sensor which detects the cam position. It could even be adjustable, of course, using software, so you could calibrate it for different lenses. But the fact that, as you point out, the lens is on a different axis to the OVF might cause problems, you would never have the overlay patch exactly matching the main VF view.

A simpler method might be to have a focusing patch, projected in the middle of the display, which focus peaks over that area alone - would be good for focus, recompose, altho again you'd have a slight parallax between the optical display and the projected patch.

An adapter that does sense the cam position would open up a whole new world of possibilities... but I have to confess myself slightly dubious that Fuji would do this in practice, simply because they seem so uninterested in making manual focus possible with their own lenses!

[DGA]

Originally Posted by Griffin

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/leic...i-partnership/

"The page you are looking for is temporarily unavailable.
Please try again later."

[Griffin]

Really? It's working for me.

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/leic...i-partnership/

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by Griffin

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/leic...i-partnership/

I wouldn't mind this at all. My two favorite camera manufactuers of the moment together. However, if it is only putting a red dot on an existing Fuji and calling it a Leica with a premium attached, they can both F off.

[t6un]

Yes, it would be possible to have a projected 'rangefinder' patch moving across the VF frame, like a triangulated rangefinder, if you have a sensor which detects the cam position. It could even be adjustable, of course, using software, so you could calibrate it for different lenses. But the fact that, as you point out, the lens is on a different axis to the OVF might cause problems, you would never have the overlay patch exactly matching the main VF view.

You can "never" have the focusing overlay match the main view in Leica m either. The rangefinder works by comparing the different views from different viewpoints.
That said, some of my old lenses have quite a lot of lateral wobble, to which the lens adapter can only add to. They wouldn't work well enough with such a rangefinder.

[DGA]

Originally Posted by Griffin

Really? It's working for me.

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/leic...i-partnership/

It's working now. Thanks.
Interesting.
Yet, a little far fetched, will Leica dump the cooperation with Panasonic?
I doubt it.

[Paul T.]

Originally Posted by t6un

You can "never" have the focusing overlay match the main view in Leica m either. The rangefinder works by comparing the different views from different viewpoints.
That said, some of my old lenses have quite a lot of lateral wobble, to which the lens adapter can only add to. They wouldn't work well enough with such a rangefinder.

I'm talking about the fact, as alluded to by Griffin earlier, that the lens is on a different axis to the VF window - it's below it. Traditional triangulation rangefinders always have the two windows on the same axis.

[Griffin]

Well mathematically speaking two points are always on the same axis. For proper triangulation the patch would have to move diagonally.

[DGA]

And, in contrary to the image received from an optical patch, an image from the censor would be blurred and unfocused. That might be a little annoying, I think.

[Paul T.]

Originally Posted by DGA

And, in contrary to the image received from an optical patch, an image from the censor would be blurred and unfocused. That might be a little annoying, I think.

Ha, this has been discussed many times, in relation to the X100, but you're the first person to hit on the flaw which means triangulated rangefinding won't work.

[Archiver]

The speculation is all very fun, and discussion is often very informative about the workings of these cameras, but I have learned to downplay any expectations I may have about upcoming cameras or accessories. In this way I am not disappointed when they turn out to have bugs like sticky aperture blades (X100), cracked sensors (M9), black dots (5D Mark II), white orbs (X10) and the raft of other annoyances that have and will continue to crop up. It also keeps me from buying something too early, before such bugs have been found by others.

If the Fuji M-adapter does indeed have electrical contacts, and has some way of reading the coding on a lens, it will at least have a way of identifying the lens and applying necessary corrections. As for assisted focusing, overlaid rangefinder patches etc, those are the kinds of thoughts that usually end badly.