Back to traditional

[joeyjoe]

Hi everyone,

It's been quite a while since I've shot any traditional 35mm B&W films. I've shot between 30 and 40 rolls of XP2 since last august and I love the stuff, but I'm tired of labs scratching my negs and doing horrid jobs on the scans and paying out the wazooo for it.

I want some "soul" in my shots, so I'm thinking I'm going to stay away from the "T" or "Delta" grained films. I've got some FP4 that I never shot sitting around as well as some of Ilford Delta stuff... I've even got some 3200 Delta. I'll probably shoot all that stuff at some point.

Now, I'm trying to figure out a workflow. How do I make all this work? I probably shoot a roll (36x) a week out of my canonet; more if I've got some self-prescribed projects. Maybe that'll go up to 2 rolls a week if I get into bulk-loading and such.

Developers: Considering Rodinal or Diafine. I like the fact that I can have diafine sitting around for quite a while and not having to worry about developing times too much. I really don't know what kind of characteristics this stuff has though. Rodinal.... that's for maximum sharpness, right? I'm open to suggestions as well. I've used TONS of D-76 in the past and I'm looking to branch out a little bit.

if I want good contrast, am I looking for thin or dense negs? for Tonality? Thin or dense?

....lol, dense is more exposure (low ISO) as opposed to thin (high ISO) right?

Do I absolutely need a hypo-clearing agent? Frankly, it's another chemical that needs to get mixed and I'm pretty limited on darkroom space and materials. Also, how do dev. temps effect the negatives?

My film-fixer can be re-used right? I plan to mix up about a liter of the stuff and have it hang out with all my other chems.

and dev, fix & photoflo get mixed with distilled water to prevent water spots, right? The water in seattle is great, but I'd like to stay on the safe side.

I'll be scanning my negs with a flatbed scanner... for web-presentation and doing traditional printing with my enlarger. Maybe use the scans to print out 4x6's but that'd be the extent of digital printing. Bad scanner though, only 1800 DPI resolution and it's image quality is pretty noisy. I should look to replace it.

any tips on stream-lining my workflow would be appreciated. Looking forward to getting my fingers wet again.

[Stephanie Brim]

I'll let the people who know more about developing speak about that, but I do have a word on scanners.

I suggest getting a new one and not paying out the wazoo for it. Minolta makes a decent one, the Scan Dual IV, which is supposed to be very good for black and white due to its high dynamic range. You can generally find one for less than $200 USD on Ebay and less than $250 USD in any respectable shop. With a very nice 3200 DPI, you get great scans. It's what I'm planning to get ASAP.

[Honu-Hugger]

I can suggest an exposure/development test that can very accurately provide you with the exposure/development adjustments that suit your particular style, if you are interested.

Hypo Clear is not a must, but I will not owrk without it -- the risk of hypo stains is not worth the small extra trouble of Hypo Clear. I also very strongly recommend Kodak Rapid Fixer and not the general variety; it's an all around better product. If you decide to re-use your fixer then also use an indicator to show when it is exhausted. Once again, to me the small cost of chemicals is not worth the risk of compromise -- I never reuse any chemicals. My rationale is considering my time taking the pictures, the prospect of damaging irreplaceable images, combined with the value of my time doing the processing makes the small cost of fresh chemicals a bargain if it helps to guarantee good processing results. I also use a 1:30 Selenium toner bath for six minutes to archivally stabilize the negative -- it has no effect upon the tone but permanently stabilizes the silver. As you suggested, distilled water also only helps to assure better results -- might as well minimize the risk factors.

[rover]

Both Kodak and Ilford have excellent information on their websites about their films. I would recommend visiting both, downloading the technical publications for the films and chemical you will be developing, and enjoy.

I am having some computer issues this morning, but here is Ilfords info page. In the film section, bottom row in the middle is a document about developing your first roll of film. I found it to be a good simple process to follow and easy to understand.

http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/bw.html

Most importantly have fun.

[Roger Hicks]

Hypo clear is completely unnecessary with film or RC paper; washing is so fast that there is no need for it.

Test fixer for re-use as follows: cut off the undeveloped film leader, put a drop of fixer on it. Let the fixer act for 15-30 seconds. Drop the leader in fixer, starting the timer as you do so. Swirl it about a bit. When the film is clear and you can't see the spot, that's your clearing time. Fix for 2x to 3x the clearing time.

Repeat each time you use the fixer. When clearing time is 2x that of fresh fixer, you need new fixer.

Seriously consider Ilford DDX, especially with the Delta 3200: Rodinal is generally reckoned to be one of the worst devs for D3200, and with good reason, though a few people seem happy with low speed and big grain.

Try some of the free information on my web-site, www.rogerandfrances.com -- and you may find the glossary useful too.

Cheers,

Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)

[Kin Lau]

If you're looking for some "character", then try FP4+ w/ Rodinal 1:50. One 500ml bottle of Rodinal should last you at least a year even at the rate of 1 roll a week since it's only 6ml or so per roll. You only need to mix just before you develop, so you only keep the 500ml bottle around and don't reuse.

[alegalle]

Peter Hogan's Prescysol or Prescysol EF.

I would like to tell you how good this is, but I don't havethe rest of the week spare.

Develop any black and white film at its rated iso and develop them all together in this great stuff (including T grain films). Then use no stop, just a wash and then an alkali fix.

www.monochromephotography.com

[alegalle]

I mix up the fix to stock strength then to working strength when I need some, and use it one shot. I know you should try to use the minimum fix time, however I have found myself needing at least 8-9mins with Delta and TMax, this will increase if you were to reuse the fixer.

This is of cause with my water in my tank at the temperature it was - so its probally a good idea to run your own tests!

[GeneW]

Joey, my volume is similar to yours. About two years ago, maybe three, I went back to developing my own B&W and scanning. Everyone has a different take on it, but fwiw, here's my setup & workflow:

1. Developer: I keep Rodinal and HC-110 in stock. Both keep forever on the shelf, and I measure out appropriate dilutions for development then toss the dilute developer out.

2. Stop bath: I don't use it. I use water.

3. Fixer: currently using plain old Kodak Fixer. Mix up a gallon. Re-use. I keep track of how many films I fix with it on a piece of masking tape attached to the jug. The stuff will last a year (at my volume), but I tend to replace the entire jug after about six months.

4. Hypo clearing agent: I don't use it. Not necessary with film

5. Wash: plain water using a modified Ilford washing method

6. Final rinse: distilled water followed by a dilute mix of PhotoFlo

7. Hang to dry

8. After the film is dry, gently re-roll with emulsion side out and put elastic band around the roll to keep it tight. Pop into a freezer bag (to keep dust off) and leave overnight. This takes out most of the curl

9. Cut into appropriate strips the next morning and insert into PrintFile storage sheet. I cut into strips of 6

10. I scan the entire roll, good frames and bad, and use PhotoShop to create a digital contact sheet. Plenty of time for coffee and checking out RFF during this stage.

11. Work up the shots I like, save the contact sheet, delete the scans (they take up a lot of room and frames can be re-scanned if need be)

Overall: thinner negs scan better than dense ones.

To pull maximum tonal values from traditional B&W film, I use VueScan software with my scanner

Hope that helps.

Gene

[Flyfisher Tom]

What Roger said about the fixer re-use is spot on. In fact I started doing it after reading Roger's book (I'm assuming this is THE Roger Hicks, author). Usually lasts at least 3 uses. As for developer, I use XTol 1+1, usually 8.75 min on Tri-X 400, 20C. I mix stock solution, store them in plastic coke bottles filled to the brim, and mix when needed with equal part tap water for one shot or two shot use (adjusted for +5% time). Using tap water is fine for rinsing between developer and fixer (usually 3 rinses), and after fixer for washing. I would recommend the hypo clearing , as water spots are really a pain and do pretty much ruin your frame. good luck

PS Roger's book is a good beginner's source, lots of good ideas, and will answer a lot of your questions (I have no affiliation with him :-)

[Flyfisher Tom]

Forgot, I never use stop bath, only water rinse. No detrimental effect in my experience. Others may feel more strongly about it :-)

[FrankS]

Welcome here, Roger!

[Kin Lau]

Yes, welcome to Roger Hicks... (THE Roger Hicks)

Oh yes... read everything on his site too.

[joeyjoe]

Gene, I think I'll be using a workflow simmilar to yours. I like the idea of Rodinal keeping a good shelf life. With my student budget, I hate to buy chemicals and have them go bad.

I'll be skipping the stop bath & hypo. Less chemicals sitting around is a lot easier for me. I'll just run a short rinse between dev & fix, wash plenty after fix & photoflo with distilled water.

What's with putting the film in the freezer? I've always noticed a slight curl to my negatives, but it'd never been an issue when printing out of an enlarger. Is it to keep the negs. flat while scanning?

Thanks for all the replies! I think I'll get out and start that roll of Fp4 that's been sitting in my fridge and buy some rodinal.

[Roman]

-) FP4+ is a nice film; I prefer TMax3200 to Delta 3200; in the medium speed range I like Fuji Neopan 400 best, but TriX and HP5+ are also good.

-) No experience with Diafine; I LOVE Rodinal (1+50 dilution) - very sharp, keeps forever; does give somewhat larger (but crisp) grain, and does give rather low film speed (at least 2/3 to 1 stop below what the box says). The other developer I like a lot is Calbe A49/Adox ATM49 (available from JandC in the US) - I use that one for TMax3200, for pushing films, and when I need fine grain; A49 gives full box film speed with most films. But your D76 is also quite good...

-) I prefer my negs rather thin - easier to scan, and finer grain when printing; I also like them a bit lower contrast, and rather dial up contrast on my enlarger head - true, this doe increase graininess again, but my thin negs already have pretty fine grain, and thin negs with higher contrast printing gives especially crisp grain (dense negs and low contrast printing gives mushy grain and less sharpness). To get good negs, you should find you personal combo's film speed and dev. times - start by shooting a bit below box speed (EI 250-320 for 400 ASA film), and developing about 15 to 20% shorter than what the box says.

-) My work-flow: developing; no stop bath, but 3x 10 inversions with room-temperated water (of course, I change the water between the 3 sequences); 3 min. in 'old' fixer, 3 min. 'new' fixer (more on that later), modified lford washing (10x, 20x, 2x 30x inversions with fresh roomtemperated water, and I always let the film sit in the water for 2-3 min. between changes); then 1 minute in distilled water (no photoflo), about 30-60 sec. spinning of the film in a salad spinner, then I let it hang to try over night.

-) I never used hypo clearing stuff on my films.

-) distilled water is only necessary for the very last bath, and possibly for mixing the developer, if your water is bad; not necessary for fixer and washing.

-) 2-bath fixing regime: generally, 1 l of diluted fixer solution is good for a bout 6 films; to be on the safe side, and becaus I don't use a stop bath, I use the 2-bath method popularized on German B&W forums: I fix half of the time (generally about 3 min.) in pre-used developer, and another 3 min. in new one; after 6 films, the new fixer becomes the old one, and I make up another liter of 'new' one.


Roman

[kiev4a]

Dense negatives equal additional grain and toiugher printing or scanning. Thinner is better (unless you are at an all-you-can-eat lobster restaurant).
I' been developing for 40 years, never used hypo clear and even my first negs still look fine.
Use Rapid Fix

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by joeyjoe

What's with putting the film in the freezer? I've always noticed a slight curl to my negatives, but it'd never been an issue when printing out of an enlarger. Is it to keep the negs. flat while scanning?

Oops, I wasn't clear. I put my reverse-rolled film into a freezer baggie (or any baggie) to keep the dust off but I don't put it in the freezer. I just leave it overnight a room temperature and this takes out a lot of the curl. It's hard to get a sharp edge-to-edge scan if the negative is curved very much. Perhaps scanner lenses have a shallower dof than enlarger lenses.

[2maneekameras]

You might consider using a caffine and sodium carbonate developer and saltwater fixer(there's plenty in Puget sound). The costs are minimal. Just make up the developer as needed. I also use HC-110 32:1 without making up the intermediate stock solution for film. I don't like mixing dry chemicals and the developer concentrate doesn't oxidize as rapidly, as the stock solution, in storage. I use kodak rapid fixer and then photoflo in the final rinse. I would recommend the newer high-end epson flatbed scanners if you can't justify a dedicated film scanner. I used to scan my negatives with a handscanner on a light table before the days of inexpensive consumer grade flatbed scanners. I hang my freshly developed film vertically, with weighted film clips on the bottom, in a cabinet to dry overnight before cutting into strips and storing in archival sleeves. I then store the film pages in a file along with a contact sheet

[joeyjoe]

Originally Posted by GeneW

Oops, I wasn't clear. I put my reverse-rolled film into a freezer baggie (or any baggie) to keep the dust off but I don't put it in the freezer. I just leave it overnight a room temperature and this takes out a lot of the curl. It's hard to get a sharp edge-to-edge scan if the negative is curved very much. Perhaps scanner lenses have a shallower dof than enlarger lenses.

Ah, I see. Good tip, considering that I'll be scanning my negs.

It's great to look a bit into everyone's workflow.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Roger Hicks

Test fixer for re-use as follows: cut off the undeveloped film leader, put a drop of fixer on it. Let the fixer act for 15-30 seconds. Drop the leader in fixer, starting the timer as you do so. Swirl it about a bit. When the film is clear and you can't see the spot, that's your clearing time. Fix for 2x to 3x the clearing time.

Thanks for this fixer testing tip, Roger!

[Roger Hicks]

You're very welcome

Cheers

Roger