Film Leader length for Zorki 1 ?

[Xmas]

There was DIN (Deuch... industry Norm) in '33 or so that standardised the 35mm cassette, which was used in early 35mm cameras starting from Leitz, 'Retina'...
It adopted the Leitz leader but was too small in height of cassettes by about 2mm.
It survived until about '72, until then all the commercial cassettes had the leitz leader but were 2mm too small, I sold my IIf then, so lost interest in leaders...

Noel
I'll find an example and photo copy

[Xmas]

woooooooooooooaaaaahhhhhhh
Sources say it was Dr. A Nagel while working for Kodak who devised the cassette, day and dark room loads circa '34...
Sorry.
I'll scan a commercial sample this PM.
Noel
P.S. I only have a sample as the concentric cassettes I buy always seem to come with dark room loads, some of the dark room loads had the film type on the leader as punched holes, I get bad nostalgia...

[ZorkiKat]

Originally Posted by Xmas

woooooooooooooaaaaahhhhhhh
Sources say it was Dr. A Nagel while working for Kodak who devised the cassette, day and dark room loads circa '34...
Sorry.
I'll scan a commercial sample this PM.
Noel
P.S. I only have a sample as the concentric cassettes I buy always seem to come with dark room loads, some of the dark room loads had the film type on the leader as punched holes, I get bad nostalgia...

Noel

The sources do say that Kodak got the Nagel works to make their 35mm cameras. When they had the camera for it, they had to produce film for it- one which would attract more buyers by being more convenient to use. Convenience meant doing away with darkroom loading and getting film out of the box, ready to load into the camera.

The container they came up with is truly wondrous: it would fit not only the Retina but also Contax and Leica, as well as the "others" like the Kine Exakta. Contax and Leica brought out their own cassettes which were compatible only with their respective cameras. Kodak called their film loaded cassettes as "135", following their custom of using the "1" prefix to denote daylight loading films.

The paper leadered and spooled "refills" could also be seen in the old adverts. Sometimes they were called as "235". The protective paper was unsealed, pulled out a bit and then inserted into the emptied cassette. After capping the cassette, the paper was pulled out until the film came out.

There were also film supplied for darkroom loading in both 18/20 or 36 exposure lengths, wrapped in black paper. Another variant was the slightly longer rolls, which were either notched to mark where they should be cut or else had preshaped leaders between the necessary lengths.

Jay

[Xmas]

Jay

When I said bad nostalgia I ment I could recall all these things, from '61. I was so poor (at school) I had to use the dark room loads as they were cheaper...

Though I never knew about the multiple rolls, they may have gone by '61.

Noel

[ZorkiKat]

Old adverts from 1940 for 35mm film which appeared in the American "Minicam Photography" magazine.

One is for Dupont "Superior" film, showing boxes labelled for the cameras which the film fit in. Two of the boxes are marked "for Argus-Leica-Retina" and one is "for Contax". Perhaps it's the way the film leaders are cut or maybe the Contax load allows cassette to casette feeding which does away with rewinding.

The other is a back-page advert for Gevaert "Panchromosa" film which touts
daylight loading convenience. The spool on the left is a daylight spool for refilling cassettes, with a paper leader. On the right is a factory loaded spool
(in a "new bakelite refillable film cartridge") whose leader is already cut.

Jay

[payasam]

Noel, Dr. Nagel apparently devised both the cassette and the Retina in Germany, his concern -- or maybe just his designs -- being bought up soon by Kodak.

The illustration in my IIIc's instruction booklet shows the cut after the 23rd perforation, while that in the Leica Guide (Focal Press) shows it after the 20th. If there are 8 perforations to a frame (3.6 cm), then there should be 22.222 in 10 cm. My guess is that people did not get so worked up about this 70 years ago. To my certain knowledge, it was no great issue in the early 1960s.

[Xmas]

pay
He sold the factory and worked as technical director, the origional cameras and the early Retinas were gems, later ones were less so but still really nice.
He patented the cassette.
Noel

[payasam]

OK, Noel. Thanks.

[MartinP]

Well, I have now tried loading with 23-holes and 21-holes length on the long leader. Happily both are fine.

I did fiddle to get a couple of holes worth of full-width film out of the cassette before putting it in the camera, but (based on my statistically useless sample of two cameras) it looks like a lot of the nightmare stories could be to do with individual cameras, or individual users somehow.

Hopefully, I will have finished moving house by next weekend and can then catch up with actually developing a few rolls - to see if it was worth putting any film in the Zorki in the first place....

[arbib]

Originally Posted by MartinP

Well, I have now tried loading with 23-holes and 21-holes length on the long leader. Happily both are fine.

I did fiddle to get a couple of holes worth of full-width film out of the cassette before putting it in the camera, but (based on my statistically useless sample of two cameras) it looks like a lot of the nightmare stories could be to do with individual cameras, or individual users somehow.

Hopefully, I will have finished moving house by next weekend and can then catch up with actually developing a few rolls - to see if it was worth putting any film in the Zorki in the first place....

Well I too have loaded my second roll (22 holes). What I did is take a white paper and stretch out the leader. Then I used a red marker to make a dot under each hole counted. (helps NOT lose count). I can use this paper as a guide for furure leaders.
I then drew a red line on the Emulsion side of the film at the 22nd hole. I then trim the leader with a slight slope to the edge.

I turn my Zorki over with the lens facing ME, (Take up spool is on the right).
I place the film cassette in the left side (using the Red line I drew as a guide for the sprockets) and wind up on the take up spool any spare I may have. I drop the take up spool in, making sure the film winds around from the inside (left).

I then look at a sprocket and hole Close to the Take up spool, under a lamp, and wind the film knob a little to make sure it is pulling film from the film cassette. I close the base and lock it, then tighten the rewind a little. And finish the winding cycle.

Setting the Counter: I move the R lever to R, and adj the counter to 1 less than Zero. Place R lever back in Advance position. And wind off 2 frames as I watch the rewind knob turn for each advance. Done....less than 1 minute.

With practice, I can get it down to 45s....I hope.

There is my blow by blow loading rutine.

[Xmas]

My only problem is I have to sit down, I open the commercial card board box, put my thumb on the 23nd hole and swiss army knife (scissors), the film to the 22nd, and I know the 21st is the formal rule, the 22nd allows a margin with the Ru take up spools, some are well difficult to trap film into.

If you fly and forget to put the knife into the hold luggage they confiscate the knife.

This works every time with my Zorki 1s (or Fed1s), I pre cut the leaders when I bulk load for the other bottom loaders, that will accept concentric cassettes.

The only real problem is getting the commercial cassettes back out of the Zorkis or Feds, lots are really tight, hanky and swiss army knife, the hanky to protect the camera, a rag will do instead... useful if you cut yourself as well, as mop.

Noel

[payasam]

The "not more than two holes showing" business can be fiddly, Martin, if the leader abruptly becomes full width, as it does with a right angled cut. A slope (or should I say a taper?) eases things a great deal.

With my Zorki 1C, Noel, I find that the little pliers in my Swiss army knife are a lot better than fingers.

[arbib]

Originally Posted by Xmas

My only problem is I have to sit down, I open the commercial card board box, put my thumb on the 23nd hole and swiss army knife (scissors), the film to the 22nd, and I know the 21st is the formal rule, the 22nd allows a margin with the Ru take up spools, some are well difficult to trap film into.

If you fly and forget to put the knife into the hold luggage they confiscate the knife.

This works every time with my Zorki 1s (or Fed1s), I pre cut the leaders when I bulk load for the other bottom loaders, that will accept concentric cassettes.

The only real problem is getting the commercial cassettes back out of the Zorkis or Feds, lots are really tight, hanky and swiss army knife, the hanky to protect the camera, a rag will do instead... useful if you cut yourself as well, as mop.

Noel

Yes, I have to sit too, But, I am typically in no hurry, so, I can find a place if needed. Still, though, If I'm going take a slew of photo's, I'll take my DSLR Or SLR instead. I normally don't take more than a 24x on one outing with the RF. I have a topic in mind, and shoot 5-10 frames.

But, I too pre-trim a couple of rolls, just in case..

I had a keychain folder That I forgot about before boarding a plane...I just unclipped it and said "Enjoy, sorry about that"..

I think a slope towards the 21-23 hole is more nessery than the exact hole useage. I make sure the cut to the edge goes between two holes, to avoid a "Hanging Chad"...(A little USA humer from the 2000 Natiional elections)

[bob cole]

The Leica film template called the Ablon is hard to find [and expensive] but Mark Hama, who works on Yashicas in Georgia, had some copies a while back...


markhama@comcast.net



http://markhama.home.comcast.net/

[payasam]

In an earlier post, Jocko (Ian) pointed to an eBay seller named LAKESUWA who has ABLON copies. I checked, and it was true. $15 apiece.

[ZorkiKat]

Originally Posted by arbib

With practice, I can get it down to 45s....I hope.

Once you've mastered the routine it's possible to do it in under 20 secs. Not including the counter resetting. My average time with Zorki is about 20 secs. A friend once timed me loading the Leica -starting from pulling out the take-up up to locking the baseplate- took 15 secs.

Jay

[arbib]

ZorkiKat

I called my dad last night about the Zorki, He said he had a Leica Bottom loader, and he hated loaded it. But yet he has used a Contax also, and found that he Liked the Contax better.

I can see getting down to 30s, But 15s ??? I will have to put my DSLR down and use my Zorki to have enough practice. But the cost is too restrictive. $11.00 to Dev and Scan to Hi Res CD per roll. So I shoot a about 2 rolls a month with the Z/1e.

I just won a Industar 50. So now I have nice compact 35mm RF that does fit my Sweat Shirt pocket !!

[ZorkiKat]

Originally Posted by arbib

ZorkiKat

I called my dad last night about the Zorki, He said he had a Leica Bottom loader, and he hated loaded it. But yet he has used a Contax also, and found that he Liked the Contax better.

I can see getting down to 30s, But 15s ??? I will have to put my DSLR down and use my Zorki to have enough practice. But the cost is too restrictive. $11.00 to Dev and Scan to Hi Res CD per roll. So I shoot a about 2 rolls a month with the Z/1e.

I just won a Industar 50. So now I have nice compact 35mm RF that does fit my Sweat Shirt pocket !!

Arbib

I wouldn't believe that 15s was possible too, until we started timing the loading and threading processes. I've been using bottom loaders (both FED and Leica) again for the past two weeks extensively.

Film and processing costs are indeed expensive. That's why we have to think about the shots first.. I do my own developing for BW and Colour negatives, and scan them on an Epson scanner. That keeps the costs down, but film is still expensive. The BW rolls I'm using now comes from abroad.

I wonder if your dad still remembers step # 2 in loading Contax cameras. Step #1 is removing the back. Step #2 is crouching on all fours on the floor to find and retrieve the take-up spool which jumps out of the camera once the back goes off

Jay

[payasam]

Don't know if anyone is following this thread still. As I said, my IIIc's instruction booklet (English language, printed in Germany) shows the cut beginning after the 23rd perforation. I have just come across a similar illustration from a IIIf instruction booklet, printed in the U.S., which shows the cut beginning after the 21st perforation. Confirms my suspicion that one does not need to be paranoid about leader length.

[arbib]

Originally Posted by payasam

Don't know if anyone is following this thread still. As I said, my IIIc's instruction booklet (English language, printed in Germany) shows the cut beginning after the 23rd perforation. I have just come across a similar illustration from a IIIf instruction booklet, printed in the U.S., which shows the cut beginning after the 21st perforation. Confirms my suspicion that one does not need to be paranoid about leader length.

Thanks for the added info.
Still keeping track (OP)

[easyrider]

Having recently unretired my IIIf, it seems that the leader should be roughly the length of the body. The main thing is to make sure that the sprockets engage into the advance wheel.... There must be many a Leica user over the years who missed the sprocket and "exposed" many shots with the film sitting in the casette.

No wonder that Alfred Eisenstadt never let anyone load his cameras, even his wife, who was a photog herself.

[ZorkiKat]

An illustration from a 1950 Zorki-1 manual:



The description for this illustration (on the next page), reads:

"Bытяните из кассеты конец пленки длиною не более 10 см, обрежьте его аккуратно по форме или с помощью специального шаблона."

which translates to English as:

"Extend from the cassette the end of the film with a length not of more than 10 cm, cut it accurately according to the form or with the aid of the special template."

[arbib]

Well today I tried the Trim Guide I got off E'Bay. It worked fine. Loaded without a hitch.
I did not count the sprockets. but the length was fine.
I have not used the Z1 for a few weeks. I had film to pick up, a few rolls, so Now that I have cought up again. I took it out today with the J8 and used my shoe mount Vivatar 24 Meter.. Some Bench and Chair snaps for W/NW topics.