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Shutter pinholes risk on M9?
Old 01-08-2013   #1
kennylovrin
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Shutter pinholes risk on M9?

Hey guys

I suspect that the answer to my question will be a no, but I couldn't get a clear answer from google so I'm asking to be sure.

Is there a risk of getting pinholes in the shutter on the M9 like it is on other Ms by not using a lens cap in sunny conditions?

As far as I understand the shutter in the M9 is metal right, so can I safely walk around with the lens in sunny conditions for longer periods of time? Maybe it isn't even as much of a problem with cloth shutters either as it is made out to be?

Thanks!
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Old 01-08-2013   #2
kbg32
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The M9's shutter blades are metal, so no. I still wouldn't put it down facing the sun/sky.
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Old 01-08-2013   #3
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No, me neither, but from what I've read it sounded like older cloth shutters could burn just by dangling from your shoulder and with a bit of bad luck.

The reason I was asking is because of my trip to Thailand next month, where it would be nice to be able to carry it without the lens cap on all the time while out shooting, which could be hours in pretty bright sun.

I wouldn't set it down though without the cap, I always use it if I know I won't be shooting for a bit.
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Old 01-08-2013   #4
ruby.monkey
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Cloth shutters are at risk if you leave your camera pointing at the sun and wearing a fast lens that's focussed at infinity and with its cap off and aperture wide open; and even then it'll take some time.
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Old 01-08-2013   #5
kbg32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennylovrin View Post
No, me neither, but from what I've read it sounded like older cloth shutters could burn just by dangling from your shoulder and with a bit of bad luck.

The reason I was asking is because of my trip to Thailand next month, where it would be nice to be able to carry it without the lens cap on all the time while out shooting, which could be hours in pretty bright sun.

I wouldn't set it down though without the cap, I always use it if I know I won't be shooting for a bit.

Ruby is right, it would take some time. I wouldn't worry about it.
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Old 01-08-2013   #6
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Cool, thanks guys!
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Old 01-08-2013   #7
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The M9 shutter blades are made from Titanium, which is a flammable metal. So if you bring the camera in a situation where a cloth shutter would suffer a burn hole, the M9 shutter might burst into flames. And as the camera shells are made out of a Magnesium alloy, which can burn easily as well, the whole camera would go up in bright flames, leaving just the top and bottom plate.

It hasn't happened - yet
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Old 01-08-2013   #8
Richard G
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I could burn holes in leaves with my glasses at school in seconds. I think a hole in a cloth shutter would take no longer at f2. I don't think you would burn a hole in the M9 shutter so quickly but heating it to 500 degrees F or more can't be good for it. I never quite forget where my camera is and where the sun is when I have no lens cap - all the time. Midday with the camera not quite flat on a table, or in your lap are the high risk orientations.
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Old 01-08-2013   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
The M9 shutter blades are made from Titanium, which is a flammable metal. So if you bring the camera in a situation where a cloth shutter would suffer a burn hole, the M9 shutter might burst into flames. And as the camera shells are made out of a Magnesium alloy, which can burn easily as well, the whole camera would go up in bright flames, leaving just the top and bottom plate.

It hasn't happened - yet
But now that people's attention has been drawn to it on the Internet, we can expect to read eye-witness accounts from those who've seen it happen. And about titanium/chlorine fires near swimming pools...

Cheers,

R.
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Old 01-08-2013   #10
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Yeah I guess, the problem with internet is that it turns every potential problem into an actual problem.

The way I see it, there is a difference between "could it happen" and "should one actively worry about it".

From my perspective, it doesn't sound reasonable to me that you wouldn't be able to carry your camera over your shoulder in sunny conditions without taking an ACTUAL risk of burning the shutter. And I mean that it's different from "when you carry your camera, it COULD happen", because potentially the lightning could strike me down as well - something I don't worry about though generally.

Then on the other hand I read somewhere online that it only takes 5 seconds to burn a hole in a cloth shutter, but I'm not so sure it sounds reasonable anyway. I would imagine that no one that doesn't live in pitch black Sweden could even carry a camera if that was the case?

Perhaps instead of worrying about the problem I should concentrate on the solution, if it would happen. Like the cost of replacing the shutter.
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Old 01-08-2013   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruby.monkey View Post
Cloth shutters are at risk if you leave your camera pointing at the sun and wearing a fast lens that's focussed at infinity and with its cap off and aperture wide open; and even then it'll take some time.
Sounds like a fair punishment for people shooting wide open in bright sunshine
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Old 01-08-2013   #12
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There is no way that even a Noctilux, wide open, focused upon the shutter itself, aimed straight at the sun, could get an M9 shutter blade close to the 1650 degree Celsius melting point of titanium let alone the metal's flash point. It could definitely melt the black coating off the shutter though and that is where the damage warning comes in. You might even be able to warp a shutter blade by a few hundredths of a millimeter. You'll get a horrible sunburn in the time you're waiting though.

It takes a lot of heat to get any solid metal to start softening, let alone rapidly oxidizing. If that's happening with your M9 around your shoulder, you have greater pressing near-environmental issues that you should be concerned about.

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Old 01-08-2013   #13
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I did a test years ago to prove the vulnerability of cloth shutters years ago. Conclusion was that focus at infinity was worse than close focus, because the shutter is some mm in front of the film. High speed lenses are not necessary to burn a shutter. f2 will do nicely, within a second. The faster the lens, the faster the burn ofcourse.

Do be careful!
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Old 01-08-2013   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
The M9 shutter blades are made from Titanium, which is a flammable metal. So if you bring the camera in a situation where a cloth shutter would suffer a burn hole, the M9 shutter might burst into flames. And as the camera shells are made out of a Magnesium alloy, which can burn easily as well, the whole camera would go up in bright flames, leaving just the top and bottom plate.

It hasn't happened - yet

I'm not sure if you are being serious or not.

Neither titanium or magnesium as used in cameras will self combust unless both materials have been ground into a fine powder and then in the right conditions, perhaps. In other words,it is nothing to be worried about.
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Old 01-08-2013   #15
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Darn! I wish I'd visited this thread before I started grinding the chassis and shutter on my M8 into a fine powder. Now what will I do???

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Originally Posted by E__WOK View Post

Neither titanium or magnesium as used in cameras will self combust unless both materials have been ground into a fine powder and then in the right conditions, perhaps. In other words,it is nothing to be worried about.
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Old 01-08-2013   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E__WOK View Post
Neither titanium or magnesium as used in cameras will self combust unless both materials have been ground into a fine powder and then in the right conditions, perhaps. In other words,it is nothing to be worried about.
Magnesium was banned from racing car construction after a few infamous accidents in the sixties and early seventies. As it is such a dangerous material it is wise to have quick release fittings on your M9 strap and carry the Leica approved extinguisher in your camera bag, not a Chinese Ebay copy.
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Old 01-09-2013   #17
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I used to work on the F-105D fighter aircraft. The tail section was lined with titanium panels against the exhaust temperature of the Pratt & Whitney J-75 engine's afterburner.

I would find something else to worry about!
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Old 01-09-2013   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
But now that people's attention has been drawn to it on the Internet, we can expect to read eye-witness accounts from those who've seen it happen. And about titanium/chlorine fires near swimming pools...

Cheers,

R.
Exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM View Post
There is no way that even a Noctilux, wide open, focused upon the shutter itself, aimed straight at the sun, could get an M9 shutter blade close to the 1650 degree Celsius melting point of titanium let alone the metal's flash point.
Phil Forrest
Of course it can! Haven't you heard of Global Warming and Sun Flares?

Quote:
Originally Posted by V-12 View Post
Magnesium was banned from racing car construction after a few infamous accidents in the sixties and early seventies. As it is such a dangerous material it is wise to have quick release fittings on your M9 strap and carry the Leica approved extinguisher in your camera bag, not a Chinese Ebay copy.
Right. It costs only 1850,-- $. But the red dot cannot be distinguished against the red paint (which brasses nicely btw),so this extinguisher has the coveted black dot.
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Old 01-09-2013   #19
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I think for putting out the magnesium chassis fire in a Leica M8/M9 etc. the approved extinguisher would be a bucket of sand. Nothing else works besides "jettison overboard" which is the SOP for metal fires aboard naval vessels.
But man! Once burning magnesium hits saltwater, it's a sight to behold!

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