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View Poll Results: Would you buy a B&W only M9 ?
Yes, absolutely. 70 14.23%
Yes, but only if it performs like B&W film. 59 11.99%
Yes, but only if it costs 15-20% less than the standard M9. 60 12.20%
No. 303 61.59%
Voters: 492. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-14-2010   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Sweeney View Post
Maybe I should post the question "If Kodak and Ilford discontinue Black and White Film, would you buy a Monochrome M9".

For Infrared Photography, the better IR films are gone and Digital Infrared is the answer. Enough users where they either convert cameras to IR or have the conversion done. No one makes a color Infrared camera that is "affordable", ie without making an M9 look cheap.
I'd buy Adox or Fuji B+W film

There's so many IFs creeping into this discussion I think we've reached the realms of fantasy. Leica aren't about to create a B+W camera anytime soon.

Now when Nano technology has reached the point where we can have sensors with enough pixels which can be dynamically set to record different wavelengths then maybe we get a perfect digital camera which can be set to b+w or colour mode.without compromiise.

Last edited by percepts : 03-14-2010 at 12:41. Reason: spelling
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Old 03-16-2010   #162
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If I was going to spend that much, I would expect it to take color as well. Purely as a matter of principal you understand.
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Old 12-28-2010   #163
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I certainly wouldn't, although I'm not in the market for a regular M9 either. It would be a huge amount of money for a very limited camera, plus I like colour for many subjects.
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Old 12-28-2010   #164
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Stooooooooooooooooooooopid. Kodak made such a digital SLR back in the 90's. I forgot the model designation.
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Old 12-28-2010   #165
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I have only recently seen, that Phase One has made an achromatic digital back, and having read this review, it actually does not seem to be such a huge advantage over a standard one, unless you are into the invisible spectrum photography. What I was hoping for, was more than the resolution increase, the speed and bit depth increase, but this still seems to be missing.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...hromatic.shtml
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Old 12-28-2010   #166
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Why?
Can a BW modified image be "That" much better than converting to BW?
Really, not Pixel Peeking differences.. but, real-life I can really see differences at normal viewing distances differences!
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Old 12-28-2010   #167
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I own one of those full-spectrum monochrome Kodak cameras, and paid Kodak an extra $4,000 to make it full-spectrum.

It was obviously worth it. For scientific imaging, getting rid of the mosaic filters gets rid of a lot of artifacts introduced by aliasing. For near-IR work, getting rid of the cut-off filter is essential. I ended up buying an EP2 modified for full-spectrum, but still has a Mosaic filter. Above 800nm or so, the RGB dye used in the Mosaic filters is ineffectual and the aliasing problems go away. So at least for IR, it is not as important.
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Old 12-28-2010   #168
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At photokina I specifically asked Stefan face-to-face about this. He was completely dismissive because of the cost of the chip. I said that I knew someone who believed it would be affordable and he assured me it would not.

Personally, I don't know enough to argue either way.

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Old 12-28-2010   #169
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Must of missed this one the first time around.

A B&W M9 would make no difference to me - I still could not afford it, but if the option were available in a camera I could afford, I would buy one. For example when I shot Nikon dslr's I would have bought a dedicated B&W model, with the same ease an infrared afficionado would have a digital camera converted to shoot what they shoot.

To be honest, I'm surprised that not more of the bigger camera companies (or even the big sensor manufacturers) don't do so, if only to hold up as a badge of honour/ show what is possible. I suppose it's easier to spend the bucks on research into superfast lenses, than to do similarly exotic things with other aspects in the camera chain..
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Old 12-28-2010   #170
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The easiest way to do a Monochrome CCD and leave the sensor geometry the same would be to fabricate it with the Mosaic layer and leave the color dye out of it. Essentially, remains in the optical path but does not absorb light coming through it. Think of it like a Mirror lens that takes rear mount filters: one must be left in place. When you convert a Digital camera to IR, you remove the IR absorbing glass and put clear glass in its place. Kodak makes the sensor, and they would know the cost. Leica's cost would be to do some mods to the firmware, mostly "bypass" color processing. The main cost would be in Test and Validation of the new camera with modified firmware. That is not trivial. On the Kodak camera, it was trivial for ME to write the software to convert RAW images from the camera. Kodak did not have to write new firmware, it only worked with Raw.
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Old 12-28-2010   #171
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What an odd question.

Errrrrrrrrrrrr lets see.

"Would you buy a Ferrari that has a speed governor that will only allow it to drive at speeds of 55mph?" Kinda like this don't you think?

Most digital shooters do not use in camera black and white anyway. Its much more functional to shoot in color and convert to mono after. That happens to be one of the fantastic advantages of digital. So who would want to deliberately castrate a camera to do less.
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Old 12-28-2010   #172
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If the monochromatic M9 would be priced not much higher than a standard one, I would consider it, if:

The acuity advantage is as dramatic, as going from an AA filtered sensor to the AA less sensor of the digital M.

It is a no brainer for me. When I use my Leica film cameras, I am fully aware, that everything, I shoot with them will end up in BW, as I only use BW film in them.

Most (about 95%) of my M8.2 files end up, being BW.
It is not about buying a technically limited different M9, which doesn't allow color photography, but buying a more specific M9, which has other advantages over the standard model.

I would be in - sure.
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Old 12-29-2010   #173
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I could get my '72 Mustang up to 135mph on the roads in North Georgia. 302 with a few Mods in it. Not that fast compared with other cars, but it was fun to see the Speedometer needle going past 120 and point to the little horse that indicated you had your Brights on. "Horsey Speed". My Sister drove a '69 Mustang with a 351 in Italy ~1970. She would get passed by the Lamborghini's. But she did drive it as Max speed and made one of her passengers wet himself with her driving. The Italian parking lot attendants that knew her referred to the car as "El Bruto".

As far as a Monochrome M9- image quality goes up for Monochrome work. Among other things, you pick up a full F-Stop of sensitivity for Visible light, and the ability of using filters designed for B&W work. And of course it makes the workflow easier when you want B&W images, which is a time saver.

Last edited by Brian Sweeney : 12-29-2010 at 03:00.
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Old 12-29-2010   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Sweeney View Post
My Sister drove a '69 Mustang with a 351 in Italy ~1970. She would get passed by the Lamborghini's. But she did drive it as Max speed and made one of her passengers wet himself with her driving.
Your sister sounds like a gal I would've liked to meet, back in the day
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Old 12-29-2010   #175
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Nope. I see no need to have a B&W-only M, when any photo I take with the M9 can be turned into a B&W photo if I want.

I don't see the point in restricting myself re the camera. The world sees mainly in color these days, and many times I see a photo that looks great in color--would be too bad if I had a B&W-only camera at the time. I would prefer having the full range of options, re my pictures...
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No.
Old 12-29-2010   #176
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No.

B&W = film

Colour = film/digital


Digital B&W is no close to film, the look has not been replicated yet.
Until then, I have no interest.
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Old 12-29-2010   #177
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Absolutely no! But I might consider a 12M M10 with excellent high ISO performance :-)
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Old 12-29-2010   #178
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Will buy it for any price!
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Old 12-29-2010   #179
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This is an interesting comparison of several DSLR's and Kodak movie film. Not sure if it would be the same for still camera film, but it is interesting information anyway.

http://www.zacuto.com/shootout
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Old 12-29-2010   #180
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I'll also go with LeicaM3 on this one. TRUE B&W for me is film.What I load my filmers up with, when I step out for a jaunt...
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Old 12-31-2010   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeicaM3 View Post
B&W = film

Colour = film/digital


Digital B&W is no close to film, the look has not been replicated yet.
Until then, I have no interest.
With some of the slick b&w conversion software available on the market, its virtually impossible to tell if the image is a digital conversion or film.

I go out of my way to process my film in such a way that it would not look like a digital b&w conversion. I think if people (at least fellow photographers) cannot say at first glance that the image was shot with film, then all the effort in film shooting is not really worth it. I also find it strange that film shooters still try their best to make their b&w film look like digital conversions, by keeping the grain in check and going for the classic clean b&w look... People who shoot digital and convert to b&w spend a lot of time adding grain and making the digital shot look gritty and like-film, while film shooters try to reduce grain in the film and keep their images nice and clean.
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Old 01-01-2011   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSNfan View Post
With some of the slick b&w conversion software available on the market, its virtually impossible to tell if the image is a digital conversion or film.

I go out of my way to process my film in such a way that it would not look like a digital b&w conversion. I think if people (at least fellow photographers) cannot say at first glance that the image was shot with film, then all the effort in film shooting is not really worth it. I also find it strange that film shooters still try their best to make their b&w film look like digital conversions, by keeping the grain in check and going for the classic clean b&w look... People who shoot digital and convert to b&w spend a lot of time adding grain and making the digital shot look gritty and like-film, while film shooters try to reduce grain in the film and keep their images nice and clean.
Possibly -- I'm not convinced -- but I for one can't afford a De Vere digital enlarger for printing on real photographic paper.

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Old 01-01-2011   #183
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Roger, there has been an anecdote by some photographer, using exclusively digital printing of doing comparison tests, where the test persons indeed did not believe, the prints were made digitally.

I can't remember though, who was it.

I for one fully believe in finding the right combination of paper, printer and software, to get a satisfying look, although wet printing is more alchemistic and romantic.
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Old 01-01-2011   #184
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I voted No earlier, but it might be interesting and useful depending on the actual improvements in B&W image quality with such a dedicated camera.
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Old 12-03-2012   #185
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I voted "No" but I got one as soon as I had tried one out...
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Old 12-03-2012   #186
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I voted "Yes, absolutely" when I saw this poll.

I knew from the very beginning, since I used digital M bodies, that a true monochrome digital body was, what I actually wanted.

I am one of the few RFF users, always having described their ideal digital Leica M as:

Monochrome sensor with usable ISO 3200, no LCD screen and other digital crutches, manual advance lever, system expandable with digital Leicavit, including additional battery power and motor advance, smaller size than the bloated digital M bodies.

I pre-ordered a MM the moment, I heard about it's official announcement.

Since I use my MM, I hardly touch the M9 anymore, if I have a choice.

I wish the next generation MM comes even closer to my ideal digital Leica M.
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Old 12-03-2012   #187
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Quote:
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I wish the next generation MM comes even closer to my ideal digital Leica M.
Are you sure they will release another one?
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Old 12-03-2012   #189
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Are you sure they will release another one?
If sales are any indication they probably will. Theres a waiting list and they are gone as soon as anyone gets them in unless you want to pay over 9K outta a place in Europe.

Yep, what the OP described was pretty much the MM

And I did buy a MM. It far exceeds my expectations....
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Old 12-03-2012   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Are you sure they will release another one?
My only perception is, that the current one is flying off the shelves and it's still very hard, to get a hold of one.

If Leica get's their new sensor supplier to deliver monochrome sensors at reasonable costs, surpassing the Kodak developed sensor in imaging quality, why not.

Unfortunately, I am very certain, that the rest of my list likely will never see the light of day except in the form of a one off Frankenstein body.

… mmmh - think about a black paint SS Leica M3 with Mono innards, M3 rangefinder, advance and … brace yourself … top 1/1000 speed and cloth shutter
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Old 12-03-2012   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Are you sure they will release another one?
I don't think so, the current is "pretty ok" in my book .

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
I voted "No" but I got one as soon as I had tried one out...
Me too ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete B View Post
I can't believe how accurate the OP was! Even down to it being an M9 called Henri
Pete
A two year old post seemed to have nailed it bulls eye ! Quite funny.
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Old 12-03-2012   #192
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Quote:
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My only perception is, that the current one is flying off the shelves and it's still very hard, to get a hold of one.
Weren't only 500 made? My understanding is that it's not that they are flying off the shelves, it's that Leica is delivering them to stores in a slow but steady stream.

Quote:
If Leica get's their new sensor supplier to deliver monochrome sensors at reasonable costs, surpassing the Kodak developed sensor in imaging quality, why not.
niche of a niche? They kind of already made the ultimate purist's B&W digital M with this camera. the only thing left is to give the purists a flim crank and leave the screen out of the design.
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Old 12-03-2012   #193
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Weren't only 500 made? My understanding is that it's not that they are flying off the shelves, it's that Leica is delivering them to stores in a slow but steady stream.
My dealer is now getting three MM's a week. I'm currently number 4 on the list.

I suspect with so many other Leica cameras being released at almost the same time, M, ME as well as MM, that the stream on other lines might also be rather slow.

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Old 12-18-2012   #194
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Quote:
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Weren't only 500 made?
The number of 500 is an unfounded internet myth - this is not a limited edition camera (I wish it were, I could make myself a ton of money). They are being built in a steady stream.
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Old 12-18-2012   #195
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Thanks jaapv. That's good to know.
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Old 12-19-2012   #196
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To elaborate, here s a quote from the Leica Q&A at lat Photokine (you may need Google Translate, sorry.)

Quote:
Frage: Wird die M-Monochrom in Zukunft ein ständiger Bestandteil des M-Systems sein?

Stefan Daniel: Diese Baureihe mit dem Grundprinzip wollen wir beibehalten. Die Monochrom ist sehr erfolgreich, wir können uns vorstellen, dass es von einem neuen Modell auch eine Monochrom Variante geben wird. Die Kamera hat einen starken Suchtfaktor.
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Old 12-20-2012   #197
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Quote:
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To elaborate, here s a quote from the Leica Q&A at lat Photokine (you may need Google Translate, sorry.)
No need for google translate. I speak Italian like a second language.
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Old 12-20-2012   #198
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Lol........
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Old 12-20-2012   #199
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COOL looks like it is not just a fad. Maybe with others will join in. It was a bold move for Leica. Gotta love a company that has pair. I'm sure market research and other such things would have advised against it.
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Old 12-20-2012   #200
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Stefan Daniel: Diese Baureihe mit dem Grundprinzip wollen wir beibehalten. Die Monochrom ist sehr erfolgreich, wir können uns vorstellen, dass es von einem neuen Modell auch eine Monochrom Variante geben wird. Die Kamera hat einen starken Suchtfaktor.

For anyone not speaking "Italian as a second language":
We will keep the series with this concept. The Monochrom is very successful, we can imagine that there will be a Monochrom version of a new series. This camera is highly addictive.
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