Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Non Rangefinder Cameras > CSC : Digital Compact System Cameras -

CSC : Digital Compact System Cameras - This new category of digital Compact System Cameras with interchangeable lenses was mislabeled for a time as "Mirrorless Cameras" by those forgetting about "Mirrorless" Rangefinder cameras.  Such confusion is easily understandable, since interchangeable rangefinder cameras were only recently introduced in 1932.  hmm.    CSC or Compact System Camera is probably the best category description to date, although I am fond of the old RFF desigation of  CEVIL  indicating Compact Electronic Viewfidner Interchangeable Lens.   This forum is here at RFF because via adapters these cameras offer an inexpensive way to use rangefinder lenses on digital cameras -- in addition of just about every 35mm SLR lens you can think of.  All  offer the photo enthusiast an incredible array of adopted lenses which was not possible before these new digital formats.   This group continues to grow in popularity and new camera models! 

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

EVF Focusing - why not overlapping images like an RF?
Old 11-08-2012   #1
kxl
Social Documentary
 
kxl's Avatar
 
kxl is offline
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sunny SoCal
Posts: 1,717
EVF Focusing - why not overlapping images like an RF?

With the the brilliant engineers at Sony, Fuji and other companies, why hasn't anyone come up with an EVF that shows overlapping images like an RF for manual focusing (including legacy lenses using adapters)?

I'm no engineer but it seems to me that EVF is just a presentation layer, so engineers should be able to develop an interface that displays overlapping images like an RF.

Is it a matter of financial feasibility?

I for one would be interested. I would think that many buyers of such cameras would be interested as well.
__________________
Keith
My humble website


"When words become unclear, I shall focus with photographs. When images become inadequate, I shall be content with silence.”
― Ansel Adams
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #2
Matus
Registered User
 
Matus's Avatar
 
Matus is offline
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Frankfurt, DE
Posts: 1,792
You would need another sensor & optics (like with true RF - there you have 2 viewfinders) to get different perspective and to have image to overly onto the image from the main sensor. The precision would not be better than with rangefinders either.

Of course it would be possible, but I guess there must be better way with digital cameras.
__________________
________
Matus
... Flickr galleries: New Zealand , Spain
... per camera: Olympus XA , Jupiter J3 , Rolleiflex T, Mamiya 6, Ricoh GRDIII shots
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #3
ruby.monkey
Registered User
 
ruby.monkey is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Garden of England
Age: 43
Posts: 3,307
It seems like a pointless complication in a system that doesn't use a triangulating rangefinder; and I suspect that the vast majority of buyers of EVF-equipped cameras won't miss it one bit.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #4
Joosep
Registered User
 
Joosep is offline
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
Posts: 336
Yeah, the EVF rangefinder doesnt make alot of sense.

You do have splitscreens in SLRs, maybe would be possible for a digital splitscreen ?
__________________
click here for my babies
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #5
kxl
Social Documentary
 
kxl's Avatar
 
kxl is offline
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sunny SoCal
Posts: 1,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruby.monkey View Post
It seems like a pointless complication in a system that doesn't use a triangulating rangefinder; and I suspect that the vast majority of buyers of EVF-equipped cameras won't miss it one bit.
Not sure it I'd consider it pointless. I would think that there are many RF users who buy EVF-equipped cameras - just not sure if those numbers justify the cost of building in the overlapping image, but if the numbers justify it, I would think that such a feature would be a selling point for that share of the market.
__________________
Keith
My humble website


"When words become unclear, I shall focus with photographs. When images become inadequate, I shall be content with silence.”
― Ansel Adams
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #6
kennylovrin
Registered User
 
kennylovrin is offline
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 451
I think it makes perfect sense - it's not about a rangefinder per se, but rather about a rangefinderesque focusing aid. That is, exactly the same kind of feature as focus peaking, just a MF aid.

I actually thought alot about it when I had my X100, as potentially fuji could overlay a sensor feed over the OVF, and theoretically get the same effect as a rangefinder.

There are other issues though, optical + evf might not give optimal sense of when in focus. Also, the lens would have to stop down a lot to be able to act as anormal rangefinder where there is no "DOF effect".

Perhaps a wide open feed of the sensor on top of the OVF would work though, kind like a blurry ghost image.
__________________
Website
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #7
sig
Registered User
 
sig is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 535
Are we discussing a mechanical rangefinder or focus peaking that looks like a rangefinder?

If it is the latest it is prob not made because it is better to have focus peaking all over th frame.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #8
rogue_designer
Reciprocity Failure
 
rogue_designer's Avatar
 
rogue_designer is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Age: 38
Posts: 2,234
In order to make it work that way, it would have to either have two sensors for triangulation, or some way to tell which elements were in front of others (not just out of focus, they could be behind instead). At the very least, it would have to be running two separate sets of calculations and then comparing them and generating a new image set - which is not insignificant from a processing standpoint.

Focus peaking and other contrast based focussing works on a different principle, and as far as I can tell, cannot easily be extrapolated so.
__________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Usually using: Canon P, Sony Nex 7, Canon 5D MkII, Horseman VHR, Horseman 45LX

---
My RFF Gallery | My Flickr | StreetLevel Photography
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #9
sig
Registered User
 
sig is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 535
But you should be able to fake the look by software?
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #10
geotrupede
Registered User
 
geotrupede is offline
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 43
two sensors or a wide one and considering the shift of the view by adjusting the crop of the small image. possible.
but to be fair, if you are trying to get aligned two images you need a very high resolution.
i suspect that the current EVF are stone age compared to the resolution you would need to precisely overlap images...
but why not, if it is cheaper than the real thing... (can it be cheaper?)
G
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #11
rogue_designer
Reciprocity Failure
 
rogue_designer's Avatar
 
rogue_designer is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Age: 38
Posts: 2,234
fake the look? sure - at least with electronically connected lenses to get focus distance information. But surely the whole point is that it would be functional?
__________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Usually using: Canon P, Sony Nex 7, Canon 5D MkII, Horseman VHR, Horseman 45LX

---
My RFF Gallery | My Flickr | StreetLevel Photography
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #12
sig
Registered User
 
sig is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 535
I had the impression that focus peaking worked on manual lenses. Is it not so? And based on that you could give focus confirmation by a yellow diamond.....
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #13
rogue_designer
Reciprocity Failure
 
rogue_designer's Avatar
 
rogue_designer is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Age: 38
Posts: 2,234
Yes, focus peaking works on manual lenses. It shows what parts of the image are in focus under most non-challenging conditions. When would it show the diamond? How does it know which subject/part of the composition is your focus point?

I think you're looking for a solution to a non-existent problem.
__________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Usually using: Canon P, Sony Nex 7, Canon 5D MkII, Horseman VHR, Horseman 45LX

---
My RFF Gallery | My Flickr | StreetLevel Photography
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #14
msbarnes
Registered User
 
msbarnes's Avatar
 
msbarnes is offline
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NY, NY
Age: 26
Posts: 818
i do not see how this focusing feature is stupid; especially not after smile detection.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #15
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
 
sevo is offline
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Frankfurt, Germany
Posts: 4,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by sig View Post
I had the impression that focus peaking worked on manual lenses. Is it not so? And based on that you could give focus confirmation by a yellow diamond.....
"Focus peaking" is really contrast peaking - it is up to the user how to interpret it as a focus confirmation. While this allows to display the location of highest contrast (which usually will be any structured part of the subject which is in focus), it cannot tell anything about unfocused or low contrast bits of the image area. Moreover there is no way for a camera to determine the current setting of a uncoupled manual focus lens (short of impractical solutions like the barrel OCR recently patented by Epson or a secondary AF camera to compare the image with), so it cannot show which way to focus. We'd expect a rangefinder to be accurate even when the camera passes a pattern impossible to focus on, and we'd expect it to give the right direction - neither would be possible, making such a rangefinder imitation more frustrating than the existing EVIL focus aids.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #16
bwcolor
Registered User
 
bwcolor is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Posts: 2,272
It could be done. You would lose off center info. available with focus peaking, but you could have both in one system. I suspect that most rangefinder people prefer ovf to evf, so the Fujifilm could appeal to ovf folks. One of the things missing at Fuji is focus peaking.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #17
anerjee
Registered User
 
anerjee is offline
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Singapore
Posts: 145
I'm not sure if this can be done. The EVF view is through the lens, so it will not always be sharp unlike an RF VF. How can this image be used for co-incident type RF focusing?

What may be interesting is a quicker way of focus confirmation than zooming in.

In my experience, focus peaking is useful but I could never be confident without zooming in 4x. The peaking/zooming process is fast, but very unlike focusing with an RF. It is also a lot less fun.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kxl View Post
With the the brilliant engineers at Sony, Fuji and other companies, why hasn't anyone come up with an EVF that shows overlapping images like an RF for manual focusing (including legacy lenses using adapters)?

I'm no engineer but it seems to me that EVF is just a presentation layer, so engineers should be able to develop an interface that displays overlapping images like an RF.

Is it a matter of financial feasibility?

I for one would be interested. I would think that many buyers of such cameras would be interested as well.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #18
kxl
Social Documentary
 
kxl's Avatar
 
kxl is offline
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sunny SoCal
Posts: 1,717
As others have suggested, I'm asking about an electronic presentation that shows overlapping images, but obviously it has to be functional.

IMO, that kind of feature perpetuates the RF-shooting experience.
__________________
Keith
My humble website


"When words become unclear, I shall focus with photographs. When images become inadequate, I shall be content with silence.”
― Ansel Adams
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #19
rluka
Registered User
 
rluka is offline
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Posts: 139
Use a very cheap and low res variation of Lytro's camera to work the rangefinder and then set the focus automatically like SLR camera stopping down the lens automatically when shooting ?

A question. Isn't DSLR's phase detect AF works like rangefinder in certain way ?
It uses beam splitter and then try to merge the two resulting images to get a focus confirmation. There has also been patents for phase detection for CSC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anerjee View Post
I'm not sure if this can be done. The EVF view is through the lens, so it will not always be sharp unlike an RF VF. How can this image be used for co-incident type RF focusing?
The image would also be of different size/magnification, unless the rangefinder sensor has complex magnification system to adjust with the attached lens.

Other thing. To make it simpler, it should be in the same horizontal axis as the lens right ?
Left side is blocked by the hand turning the lens, while the right side is limited by the space available between the lens mount and the user's gripping hand. Most likely will have low baseline accuracy
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-08-2012   #20
rogue_designer
Reciprocity Failure
 
rogue_designer's Avatar
 
rogue_designer is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Age: 38
Posts: 2,234
Quote:
To make it simpler, it should be in the same horizontal axis as the lens right ?
Not strictly necessary if you're only dealing with a single point/focus area. Makes it easier mechanically, but would work just fine either way from an accuracy standpoint.
__________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Usually using: Canon P, Sony Nex 7, Canon 5D MkII, Horseman VHR, Horseman 45LX

---
My RFF Gallery | My Flickr | StreetLevel Photography
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-11-2013   #21
Kavenzmann
Registered User
 
Kavenzmann is offline
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 22
Now, that the Fuji X100s has an overlapping-like picture for manual focus aid plus peaking we have what we want.

I didn't fully understand the technique, which has nothing in common with rangefinder, but it seems like the electronic solution for what I was searching for. I still haven't used this feature by myself but I think it's a fine thing for us manual freaks.

Happy with X - Fuji X
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-11-2013   #22
thegman
Registered User
 
thegman is offline
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 34
Posts: 3,547
I guess anything is technically possible, and I would not be that surprised if Leica starts to think about it if their EVF solution is popular. However, if they sell a load of M 240 cameras and very few EVF add-ons, then perhaps they'll see that the market has spoken that a mechanical range finder is what the buyers want.
__________________
My Blog
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-11-2013   #23
johannielscom
Off to Nikon dSLR, MF
 
johannielscom's Avatar
 
johannielscom is offline
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: GRQ 187º 17km
Posts: 6,581
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegman View Post
I guess anything is technically possible, and I would not be that surprised if Leica starts to think about it if their EVF solution is popular. However, if they sell a load of M 240 cameras and very few EVF add-ons, then perhaps they'll see that the market has spoken that a mechanical range finder is what the buyers want.
I'd say that would be wishful thinking. Many buyers buy the brand to show off their wealth (even more so with the nouveau-riche from the Far East now entering the market) and not to use the best tool in the market. Ergo, buy the camera and all the accessories available for it.

I'm thinking Leica will sell sufficiently EVF's to continue the EVF development (even if it is in the wrong direction technically), and sell more, more, more of them
__________________
Check me out at

www.johanniels.com

See ya.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-11-2013   #24
ruby.monkey
Registered User
 
ruby.monkey is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Garden of England
Age: 43
Posts: 3,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavenzmann View Post
Now, that the Fuji X100s has an overlapping-like picture for manual focus aid plus peaking we have what we want.

I didn't fully understand the technique, which has nothing in common with rangefinder, but it seems like the electronic solution for what I was searching for. I still haven't used this feature by myself but I think it's a fine thing for us manual freaks.

Happy with X - Fuji X
From the videos I've seen it actually looks harder to nail focus with than a plain TTL image, and nowhere near as usable as te most basic of split-image rangefinders.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-11-2013   #25
thegman
Registered User
 
thegman is offline
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 34
Posts: 3,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzardkid View Post
I'd say that would be wishful thinking. Many buyers buy the brand to show off their wealth (even more so with the nouveau-riche from the Far East now entering the market) and not to use the best tool in the market. Ergo, buy the camera and all the accessories available for it.

I'm thinking Leica will sell sufficiently EVF's to continue the EVF development (even if it is in the wrong direction technically), and sell more, more, more of them
Perhaps you are right. I guess even RF-diehards may buy one just to try it out, if you can afford a digital M, I dare say you can afford all the bits.
__________________
My Blog
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 23:06.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.