Slide Film, A CALL TO ARMS! : SHOOT IT OR IT WILL DIE

[wilonstott]

Okay.

I'm going out.

Velvia 100.

You'd do well to do the same.

Good luck, Gentlemen.

[divewizard]

Originally Posted by wilonstott

Good man. Keep it up, and then some.

I just got this Velvia back from Precision Camera Today. I will mail in two more rolls of E-6 on Monday.

GS645S, Velvia 50, Skylight 1B

©2012 Chris Grossman

[Athiril]

Originally Posted by Sarcophilus Harrisii

Keith,
have you heard of Daniel Lee yet? He's a Melbourne Silver Miner who started providing E-6 as well as C-41 and B&W processing services last year at great prices. It must be going well for him because he is going full time with it soon. His processing prices are excellent. E-6 in 35mm or 120 is only $6.50 a roll at the moment although it will be going up a little soon. It's still way better than $20, though!

I have to admit at this point I have not used his services myself yet. But he has some great tertiary qualifications in chemistry, so I have no reason to believe his processing quality will not be first-rate. And just as importantly, he has a passion for film. He's a member here, can't recall his user name at the moment though.

The only link I have for him is to his Facebook page, sorry, but here it is. If you'd like to shoot a bit of E-6, get in touch with him. Postage to Melbourne and back will make it a little more than $6.50 delivered but it is still going to be less than half the price of what you paid last time. He even does ECN-2 processing.
Cheers,
Brett

This is me, the price includes cut and sleeved dev only. I'm using Kodak minilab chemistry atm. It's also the same price for 127, 220 and 620. Due to the fact it takes me the same amount of time to process per roll. Costs are mostly time/effort based, as the raw chemistry cost is really small component.

I can do uncut and sleeved as well, but if you're not able to pick up, return postage is higher as it has to be sent as a parcel in a box to protect the film rather than as a large letter.

I can process 4x5" now as well. I don't want to list the costs not already mentioned as that might be construed as advertising.


E-6 is not difficult to process at home, replenishment is simpler than C-41. E-6 is simply more time consuming to process. You can't walk away (in manual processing) until at least the beginning colour developer stage.
If anyone wants to learn to process E-6 at home (aside from a basic tetenal kit), I can advise on how to do so.



For the raw chemistry costs, in a replenished setup, it's a few cents cheaper than C-41 per roll. Around about 36 cents I think. C-41 was 40 something when I did the math.


If you are very happy with a particular service already, probably good to support that. I based my prices on affordability criteria, but in a sustainable approach by using really low overheads.



I really liked E100VS, even in heavy shade, it had a wonderful colour balance. But in any case, colour neg is my material of choice for my personal work, especially for landscapes.


I plan on offering some weird things, like CD-3 based cross-processing of E-6, so that cross-processed E-6 film has long term dye stability and better colour.


I'll be RA-4 printing soon. I'm going to try some tricks like making local saturation masks to bump colour intensity on prints among other things.

Won't be offering C-41 with a 4x6" of every frame etc! Particularly large singular prints for a gallery show or framing will probably be near market rates and competitive. Depends if I decide to offer it or not (this depends on the results).


I've got other tricks I wan't to do some practical with. Like halogen gas bleaching of film... it bleaches back silver to silver halide but with no liquid contact or residue. Thus not washing out any anti-halation dyes or other dyes. This means I can take ridiculously old film (colour or b&w), gas bleach it in the dark, roll up. And it'll be fog-free, albeit at the moment at different speed and contrast. As I am using straight chlorine gas atm. I tried bromine gas once, using sulphuric acid to help produce it, but sulphuric acid often makes a mess, and I think I was getting other stuff as well. I wan't to try an iodine compound based gas, as theoretically I propose it should restore film speed to age fogged film.

The other way to use this is to leave film exposed to sun light, light ejects specks of silver out of a halide crystal, expose long enough and it should be all (more or less) much much smaller specks of silver, bleach it back to a halide, and you have a microfine grain ultra slow film with theoretically seriously enhanced resolution (due to grain size).

[shadowfox]

Originally Posted by Aristophanes

This will kill E-6 faster than anything else.

There was never enough home processing to keep Jobo in biz, so nowhere near enough to keep Fuji's rollers rolling.

Only labs can machine process the volume comparable to what Fuji's machines can output.

There is no ability to downscale production of these complex emulsions. If the market cannot purchase and process a certain volume, it all stops. This is what Kodak did.

At least the E process is substantially less expensive and idiosyncratic than the K process This makes it economically viable if labs can process equitably compared to Fuji's output. It's a pretty simple equation.

You are painting the past into today's situation.
Today there is hardly any volumes at all to worry about capacity.

Individuals banding together, pooling resources and re-introducing slide film is *the* only way it will survive and eventually thrive within a niche.

[Spanik]

Got about 50 rolls of Provia 400X 120 lined up for the coming holiday. But to make sure I'll shoot a few more before I leave.

[shadowfox]

Originally Posted by wilonstott

Remember, lets keep this postive--I'm getting pumped up, man.

No arguments--only contributions.

Consider the way you frame your discourse, and I'm not tearing you down, I'm actually thrilled at the info you brought out.

Aristophanes is thinking bigger picture, and we need that as well.

However, it's good to hear that we can still take on some of the "buy locally, think globally" mentality and process ourselves.

Perhaps the ease of home processing E-6 is something that needs more visibility as well.

Before reading about it, I assumed it was terrifically complicated, and that simply isn't the case.

Home developers need to know this as well.

Demand for film and chemicals are demand for film and chemicals.

Big labs need our business too.

I said it before--why can't we have both?

When I talked to Precision, they said that they were most likely going to offer black and white processing with their existing E-6 equipment.

Of course, they'd be locked into one developer if they did this.

Awareness is a huge issue right now.

We forget about it.

Friend,
You are pumped, full of energy.
I understand that.

But being full of energy and enthusiasm does not translate into *sustainable* business sense.
That's what the labs need.

And without slide film users re-invigorating the perception of what it can do to a mass blinded by the digital saturation, labs will close down.

You cannot have both. At least for now.

If you are really serious, don't spend all your energy.
Plan carefully, look for allies, build network of like-minded people, and start small.

If and only if you are able to build the niche, where people start to regularly use slide again, then you can start pitching the idea to reinstate the labs.

I am in no way suggesting that we abandon the labs, quite the opposite, I'm suggesting how to make it viable for them to stay or reopen their business, but that's the next goal, not the first.

On a side note, don't feel alone.
I am working on a project that will, as a result, sustain film (not just slide) photography for the days to come.

Take heart.

[wilonstott]

Originally Posted by shadowfox

Friend,
You are pumped, full of energy.
I understand that.

But being full of energy and enthusiasm does not translate into *sustainable* business sense.
That's what the labs need.

And without slide film users re-invigorating the perception of what it can do to a mass blinded by the digital saturation, labs will close down.

You cannot have both. At least for now.

If you are really serious, don't spend all your energy.
Plan carefully, look for allies, build network of like-minded people, and start small.

If and only if you are able to build the niche, where people start to regularly use slide again, then you can start pitching the idea to reinstate the labs.

I am in no way suggesting that we abandon the labs, quite the opposite, I'm suggesting how to make it viable for them to stay or reopen their business, but that's the next goal, not the first.

On a side note, don't feel alone.
I am working on a project that will, as a result, sustain film (not just slide) photography for the days to come.

Take heart.

Oh I understand fully what you're saying Fox.

My goal with this thread is purely awareness and action on a very indvidual level--for now.

I'm really glad that you're working on projects to secure film usage--we need much more of that---well, there may be more of that, but the thing is, I'm in the niche, and I haven't heard about it.

I want to know.

So I start thinking, where does it start--using more slide film--right?

That's all I'm saying.

Shoot more of it.

I don't see any sustainable business model that doesn't involve demand.

I'm trying to make the objective easy for average shooters.

Right now I've asked people to do two things:

1) Make a concerted effort to shoot more slide film.

2) PM Precision and ask about E6--let them know there's interest.

(Haven't heard if anyone's PM'd Precision, by the way)


I think this is something we all can do, and we can feel like we're doing something to help, without getting bogged down with that helpless, sinking ship feeling.

I hate that feeling, and I'm not going to do it anymore.

[wilonstott]

Originally Posted by Spanik

Got about 50 rolls of Provia 400X 120 lined up for the coming holiday. But to make sure I'll shoot a few more before I leave.

Boom!

This guy.

Shoot it all.

Best work you've ever done, man.

[HHPhoto]

Dear Daniel Lee,

Originally Posted by Athiril

This is me, ...

Kudos to you!! I wish you good luck and lots of success for your new lab services!!

Originally Posted by Athiril

I really liked E100VS, even in heavy shade, it had a wonderful colour balance.

I liked E100VS / EliteChrome 100 Extra Color, too.
I've been quite sad about Kodak's decision.
But then I've tried to test alternatives and found one:
Fuji Velvia 100F in combination with a Skylight 1A or 1B filter.
Why that? It is simple:
The main characteristic of E100VS has been higher saturation (but not as high as Velvia 50) but with a well balanced and quite natural look. And the Kodak typical warmer color balance.

Well, Fuji Velvia 100F is the most natural looking film of the three Velvias. It is like a Provia 100F with a little more saturation and a bit more contrast. Well colour / grey balanced and natural look. In this characteristic there are similarities to E100VS.
But Velvia 100F is strictly neutral and does not have the warmer tones of E100VS.
But you get this warmer tones with a Skylight 1A or 1B filter (1A for a very light warmer tone, 1B for more if you want).

The Velvia 100F solution has one further advantage: Velvia 100F has significantly finer grain (RMS 8) than E100VS (RMS11), better sharpness and higher resolution.

Two professional photographers and me recently did a very detailed test of the resolution, sharpness and fineness of grain of different ISO 100 color films. Here are some of our test results:

Test method:
Canon EOS 1V with EF 1,4/50 USM and Nikon F6 with AF-S 1,8/50 G. Test with f 5,6. The differences in resolution in the middle of the picture are minimal with both lenses (2-3%), very small advantages for the Nikkor (the following values refer to the Nikkor). MLU, tripod Berlebach UNI 24, 1/1000s; object contrast of the testchart 1: 6 (2,5 stops).
First resolution value: Number of clearly seperated linepairs per millimeter ( lp/mm)

Second resolution value: The resolution limit, at which you can still see a little contrast difference.

Analysing of the results with a microscope at 100x enlargement.

Resolution:
Fuji Provia 100F: 130 – 140 Lp/mm
AgfaPhoto CT 100 Precisa: 130 – 140 Lp/mm
Fuji Velvia 100F: 140 – 155 Lp/mm

(at Carl Zeiss Velvia 100F was tested with Zeiss lenses, and they've got 170 lp/mm, but with a higher object contrast than we've used; their result was published in the camera lens news).

Kodak E100G: 130 – 140 Lp/mm
Kodak Elitechrome 100: 130 – 140 Lp/mm
Kodak E100VS: 115 - 125 lp/mm

Kodak Elitechrome 200: 105 – 115 Lp/mm
Rollei CR 200: 65 – 80 Lp/mm
Fuji Provia 400X: 110 – 125 Lp/mm

Agfa Copex Rapid (Scala-Process): 175 – 190 Lp/mm.
Retro 80S (Scala-Process): 100 – 110 Lp/mm
Agfa Scala 200X: 75 – 90 Lp/mm

Comparison color negative film (and digital):
Kodak Ektar 100: 95 - 105 Lp/mm
Fuji Reala 100: 105 – 115 Lp/mm
Fuji Pro 400H: 95 - 105 Lp/mm
Kodak Portra 400: 85 - 100 Lp/mm
(Nikon D3X: 70-75 Lp/mm).

Concerning fineness of grain and sharpness Provia 100F, CT 100 Precisa, Velvia 100F, Kodak E100G and Elitechrome 100 showed better results than Reala and Ektar (E100VS had a bit coarser grain than Reala and Ektar).
And Provia 400X has finer grain and better sharpness compared to Pro 400H and Portra 400.

Kind regards, Jan

[wilonstott]

Originally Posted by HHPhoto

Dear Daniel Lee,



Kudos to you!! I wish you good luck and lots of success for your new lab services!!



I liked E100VS / EliteChrome 100 Extra Color, too.
I've been quite sad about Kodak's decision.
But then I've tried to test alternatives and found one:
Fuji Velvia 100F in combination with a Skylight 1A or 1B filter.
Why that? It is simple:
The main characteristic of E100VS has been higher saturation (but not as high as Velvia 50) but with a well balanced and quite natural look. And the Kodak typical warmer color balance.

Well, Fuji Velvia 100F is the most natural looking film of the three Velvias. It is like a Provia 100F with a little more saturation and a bit more contrast. Well colour / grey balanced and natural look. In this characteristic there are similarities to E100VS.
But Velvia 100F is strictly neutral and does not have the warmer tones of E100VS.
But you get this warmer tones with a Skylight 1A or 1B filter (1A for a very light warmer tone, 1B for more if you want).

The Velvia 100F solution has one further advantage: Velvia 100F has significantly finer grain (RMS 8) than E100VS (RMS11), better sharpness and higher resolution.

Two professional photographers and me recently did a very detailed test of the resolution, sharpness and fineness of grain of different ISO 100 color films. Here are some of our test results:

Test method:
Canon EOS 1V with EF 1,4/50 USM and Nikon F6 with AF-S 1,8/50 G. Test with f 5,6. The differences in resolution in the middle of the picture are minimal with both lenses (2-3%), very small advantages for the Nikkor (the following values refer to the Nikkor). MLU, tripod Berlebach UNI 24, 1/1000s; object contrast of the testchart 1: 6 (2,5 stops).
First resolution value: Number of clearly seperated linepairs per millimeter ( lp/mm)

Second resolution value: The resolution limit, at which you can still see a little contrast difference.

Analysing of the results with a microscope at 100x enlargement.

Resolution:
Fuji Provia 100F: 130 – 140 Lp/mm
AgfaPhoto CT 100 Precisa: 130 – 140 Lp/mm
Fuji Velvia 100F: 140 – 155 Lp/mm

(at Carl Zeiss Velvia 100F was tested with Zeiss lenses, and they've got 170 lp/mm, but with a higher object contrast than we've used; their result was published in the camera lens news).

Kodak E100G: 130 – 140 Lp/mm
Kodak Elitechrome 100: 130 – 140 Lp/mm
Kodak E100VS: 115 - 125 lp/mm

Kodak Elitechrome 200: 105 – 115 Lp/mm
Rollei CR 200: 65 – 80 Lp/mm
Fuji Provia 400X: 110 – 125 Lp/mm

Agfa Copex Rapid (Scala-Process): 175 – 190 Lp/mm.
Retro 80S (Scala-Process): 100 – 110 Lp/mm
Agfa Scala 200X: 75 – 90 Lp/mm

Comparison color negative film (and digital):
Kodak Ektar 100: 95 - 105 Lp/mm
Fuji Reala 100: 105 – 115 Lp/mm
Fuji Pro 400H: 95 - 105 Lp/mm
Kodak Portra 400: 85 - 100 Lp/mm
(Nikon D3X: 70-75 Lp/mm).

Concerning fineness of grain and sharpness Provia 100F, CT 100 Precisa, Velvia 100F, Kodak E100G and Elitechrome 100 showed better results than Reala and Ektar (E100VS had a bit coarser grain than Reala and Ektar).
And Provia 400X has finer grain and better sharpness compared to Pro 400H and Portra 400.

Kind regards, Jan

Jan, this is a goldmine of great information, man!

I wish we had an upvote system--I'd send this to the top.

Great stuff.

Ninja Edit

I don't know what the personal history is with Lee, but I hope you guys can work it out.

Solidarity, gentlemen.

Hell, more than that, we need a Coalition of the Willing

[dallard]

Originally Posted by wilonstott

Anybody got an Email Address for Christian Rudman?

crudman@precision-camera.com

Just shot 20 frames of E100G this morning and I'm finishing the roll tonight at golden hour. Then to B&H to buy some Provia.

[wilonstott]

Originally Posted by dallard

crudman@precision-camera.com

Just shot 20 frames of E100G this morning and I'm finishing the roll tonight at golden hour. Then to B&H to buy some Provia.

Ask and ye shall receive.

Thanks, Dallard--fantastic work.

Guys, drop him a line and get the scoop.


Oh, yea--
I posted this earlier, but here's a link to the Golden Hour Calculator, and there's also an iphone app.

http://www.b-roll.net/goldenhour/

[carpark]

I love shooting slide. I have loads in the fridge.
Thank you for this thread. Its the kick in the backside I needed to get shooting more of it.
Does anyone know how to get E6 kits in Canada? I can find US suppliers but they won't ship out of the US due to regulations.
I use Filmworks in Toronto. Any other recommendations for good E6 processing in Toronto?
Maybe we should compile a list of labs in North America?

[hausen]

Just dropped 2 rolls of Provia 400 from my Rolleiflex to my local lab. Will be processed and scanned and in Dropbox later this afternoon.

[Athiril]

Resolution isn't as simple as a test chart. I would prefer to see grey on grey line chart results not black and white, real scene high spatial frequencies are typically low contrast for most of us. High end results call for high end optics. You won't see it without that, even if the lens is good, the response rate won't be high in high spatial frequencies.

You'll naturally get a boosted response rate from high contrast material on a high (relatively by comparison) contrast film.

Fuji's datasheets indicate Pro 160S is ridiculously finer than Reala. That Reala 500D is as fine as Reala, some other Eterna stocks finer than Reala. But I've seen good scans of these, and they do not appear as fine as 400H in some examples.

[zauhar]

Just finished developing 5 rolls of Velvia 100 (two rolls at speed, three at 200). From what I can determine in the basement light, I have some gorgeous shots, many taken in low light. Velvia rocks!

However, that was a lot of work, what with the water bath and almost constant agitation. I could be talked into sending to a lab for a reasonable price.

Lost track of this thread, I will have to look back and see if there is any consensus as to a good mailorder lab.

Randy

[Athiril]

Originally Posted by zauhar

Just finished developing 5 rolls of Velvia 100 (two rolls at speed, three at 200). From what I can determine in the basement light, I have some gorgeous shots, many taken in low light. Velvia rocks!

However, that was a lot of work, what with the water bath and almost constant agitation. I could be talked into sending to a lab for a reasonable price.

Lost track of this thread, I will have to look back and see if there is any consensus as to a good mailorder lab.

Randy

How cold is your ambient temp?

For home processing, plastic inversion tanks are fantastic due to the heat insulation properties and volume of developer. May not be economical one shot. But standard replenishment is simple for E-6 and works well (110/111mL per 35mm/36exp and 120 roll for FD and CD etc).

[hausen]

A couple of mine from weekend. Provia 400

Wharf under repair. by BigHausen, on Flickr


Just before Sunrise by BigHausen, on Flickr


Sun's Up by BigHausen, on Flickr

[thegman]

Originally Posted by hausen

A couple of mine from weekend. Provia 400

Wharf under repair. by BigHausen, on Flickr
Just before Sunrise by BigHausen, on Flickr
Sun's Up by BigHausen, on Flickr

Some really nice shots there, first one especially.

[Speedfreak]

Originally Posted by HHPhoto

There have been official statements from Ilford, Kodak, Maco/Rollei and Adox that their BW film sales have either stabilised or are even increasing.

Please post your references.

All I ever hear of is film sales are going down.

http://www.google.de/trends/?q=kodak...ate=all&sort=0

http://www.google.de/trends/?q=fuji&...ate=all&sort=0

http://www.google.de/trends/?q=analo...o=all&date=all

[DriesI]

For UK shooters:
Free slide film
http://www.ccimaging.co.uk/news/late...discounts.html

[wilonstott]

Way to keep the thread going.

Anyone email Precision? I haven't heard anything from them yet.--or from you guys, for that matter.

Come on, make the effort.

It's only an inquiry. Takes 5 minutes.

In the mean time--

Here's William Albert Allard using Velvia in Italy
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ng...re6/zoom3.html

Ninja Edit

I don't want to get sidetracked, but it says 'strobe' on some of his pictures, but I swear I can't tell he used one.

Also,

Should I refrigerate or freeze exposed rolls while I'm getting enough rolls exposed to cut down shipping costs?

[gilpen123]

We stopped shooting slides down here for sometime now as the only remaining lab that process slides was badly damaged by floods during a strong typhoon. They didn't replace their equipment as it's no longer economical but they still process B&W films. The core of the business now is large format digital printing.

[kosta_g]

this thread is an excellent read.

I had to slide test my m3 before my travels this wednesday, and here is one of the results - funnily enough on velvia 100f... but I haven't got the scanning method down pat for this type of film.


FUJI_VELVIA_100F_M3_16JUN12_21_ by Kosta., on Flickr

shot as a drive by... got the look of love from the bike :P

[wilonstott]

Hate to hear that Gil.

You may be one of the people that can benefit from home processing--provided you can have chemicals shipped to the Philippines economically (*relative term).

Keep up the fight man.

All is not lost.

This is what we're trying to do here--awareness and visibility.

We want to let people know it's still an option.

I know that doesn't go very far towards bringing e-6 process back to the Philippines, but right now, it's the best I got.