strange lines in film/neg

[wasabean]

hey guys, this is my first post but i've been reading loads and loads on this forum...anyway...i've been developing film in my kitchen for a while now and i've just come across this and i'm puzzled. attached are some pictures from my recent trip to sequoia and i noticed there are some strange lines consistent across all my negs.
can anyway narrow it down to what it is? thanks in advance


img504 by WasaBean, on Flickr


be cool... by WasaBean, on Flickr


rice crispy goodness by WasaBean, on Flickr

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

They're scratches on the film. They're probably caused by a dirty roller in the camera that the film moves over. Might be a roller that is not turning because of grit caught in it.

[Sylvester]

Do you use a rubber film squeegee? If you don't rinse it with hot/warm water before squeeging your film you'll get line like that:

Mathew par ChatSylvestre, sur Flickr
I learned after "ruining" a full roll of film... Didn't try to darkroom enlarge it to 5x7 if it shows up. This image is a film scan.

[chubasco]

What film is this? I got the same thing from Arista Ultra 200, but suspect
it was because the film was loaded in dirty/defective cassettes.

[jordanstarr]

...are you doing something different that you were not doing before (new technique, new film, new camera, etc.? That's a lot of lines for dirt on roller/pressure plate, so unless your film was fine before this and you shot in a sand storm with the back open, I can't see lines like this just happening out of nowhere. Squeegees tend to do this, so I scrapped them years ago. If you're using reloadable canisters, bad/deteriorated felt does this as well. It went black, so it's piercing the emulsion. Could be a combination of things too such as washing with hot water for too long that softened the emulsion followed by a squeegee that has nicks in the rubber.

Go through your workflow from before this roll and exactly what you did for this roll and see what is different. If you figure it out, post your solution as this comes up a lot on this forum.

[wasabean]

thanks for all your input guys. i'm starting to lean towards a dirty roller. i hope i don't need to buy new ones, i'll just make sure i clean them thoroughly next time. the film used is tri-x 400.

[wasabean]

nope, i used the squeegee once, scratched the film and tossed it. worse $10 i ever spent. i just let it hang after photo-flo rinse.

Originally Posted by Sylvester

Do you use a rubber film squeegee? If you don't rinse it with hot/warm water before squeeging your film you'll get line like that:

Mathew par ChatSylvestre, sur Flickr
I learned after "ruining" a full roll of film... Didn't try to darkroom enlarge it to 5x7 if it shows up. This image is a film scan.

[wasabean]

i have a roll of ektar in the camera i'm using right now. i'll have to wait to finish it before i can open the camera to examine if the pressure plate is the culprit. the only two things i can think of based on the other people's suggestions are either a dirty reel or dirty pressure plate. its getting scratched somewhere and those two are the only places where film is contacting something.

Originally Posted by jordanstarr

...are you doing something different that you were not doing before (new technique, new film, new camera, etc.? That's a lot of lines for dirt on roller/pressure plate, so unless your film was fine before this and you shot in a sand storm with the back open, I can't see lines like this just happening out of nowhere. Squeegees tend to do this, so I scrapped them years ago. If you're using reloadable canisters, bad/deteriorated felt does this as well. It went black, so it's piercing the emulsion. Could be a combination of things too such as washing with hot water for too long that softened the emulsion followed by a squeegee that has nicks in the rubber.

Go through your workflow from before this roll and exactly what you did for this roll and see what is different. If you figure it out, post your solution as this comes up a lot on this forum.

[---f]

my experience, I only see this happen AFTER I pull film out of a sleeve to scan, so now I scan before I sleeve the film. Also it can happen when your fixer is on it's last legs and your need to dump it. Seems like there's a correlation between dying fix and scratches - in my development process.

[wasabean]

i don't think this is the case . there seems to be a pattern to the scratches which leads me to believe it's caused by something that rolls or is rolled across.

the fixer was definitely not exhausted yet. this fresh batch of fixer has only been through 2 rolls. however, all my chemicals are over 8 months old (concentrated form) and stored in a cupboard.

Originally Posted by Fireboy

my experience, I only see this happen AFTER I pull film out of a sleeve to scan, so now I scan before I sleeve the film. Also it can happen when your fixer is on it's last legs and your need to dump it. Seems like there's a correlation between dying fix and scratches - in my development process.

[sdotkling]

Clearly something in the camera. The lines are always exactly in the same place, same distance apart. For it to be the squeegee, you'd have to doing some weirdly precise squeegeeing.

[wasabean]

interesting...i don't think i'm loading the film wrong. it maybe be some grit stuck on the pressure plate or something...but just for technicality sake my process in loading film is:

1. open door
2. insert film into chamber
3. pull leader and insert into takeup spool
4. manually push spool until leader is caught and a about an inch has been taken up
5. close door
6. rewind a tad bit to tighten film slack
7. advance film to exposure #1

thats it i think

Originally Posted by sdotkling

Clearly something in the camera. The lines are always exactly in the same place, same distance apart. For it to be the squeegee, you'd have to doing some weirdly precise squeegeeing.

[---f]

dust in the film canister felt???

[wasabean]

no i don't think so, the same pattern exsists on two seperate rolls.

Originally Posted by Fireboy

dust in the film canister felt???

[jim_jm]

I've had this happen a few times over the years, with different cameras, probably due to dust/debris on the pressure plate or somewhere else along the film path. Like your examples, the marks are perfectly straight and span multiple frames. Last time was with 2 consecutive rolls in my Leica, but I've shot dozens of rolls since and it has not reappeared. Using a blower brush, I try to gently clean out the film chambers and areas around the film gate/shutter once every few rolls. I've cleaned out small bits of film and even discovered lint that was protruding into the image path and creating the same shadow on all the frames.

Curiously, I've never seen this happen with my Bronica SQ, considering the convoluted path the film takes to get to the take-up spool. With the paper backing, 120 film never actually touches the pressure plate and there's no felt to trap dirt...

[wasabean]

well guys, aside from the lines, what do you guys think of the pictures? good, bad, okay?

[Lord Nikon]

I like how you compose, but whats with the blown highlights & high contrast?

I guess if that's the look your going for, sure. If not I'd spend some more time tweaking your scanning or other post-processing work.

If you cant save them with digital work or have a very hard time of it things go in a few directions at once.

You sound new to this, which is cool.
The biggest noob mistake is a lack of darkroom consistency. IMO there is really no point in even owning a light meter if you aren't consisntent in the darkroom. BANG! Its that important. Since you have a light meter in the FM2n (that camera is so good its like a gift from nikongod) you might as well make the most of it in the darkroom.

The right tools make work better.

Start with how you mix chemicals. You should fill your graduates more than 1/2 full to measure. None of that trying to measuring 1oz with a 32oz graduate (ask me how I know that this is a bad idea.) Buy a 1.5oz graduate if you need to measure 1oz. You can of course buy graduates as you need them - there is no need to own a whole set from 1oz to 1gallon if you only ever use the 2oz and 32oz sizes.

Once you are consistent with how you mix your chemicals their temperature is very important. 1*F matters. Try to keep everything within 1*F of whatever temperature you settle on and keep all of that exactly the same from session to session. You should try to get the temperature of all liquids exactly the same - developer, stop bath (if used), all rinse water, and fixer. This is not easy, but nothing worth doing is really easy and the results are SO worth the trouble.
If you think you need a nice thermometer, your right! Buy 2 and note how they read so your not totally screwed when you break one.

My temperature control suggestion is easily the hardest part of this. if you can't actually make 1*f consistency happen don't let it stop you. This is a really hard goal to achieve. I don't even make it happen. BUT I know that its important and I'm always trying to do my best. Knowing that you should do something a certain way and doing your best even though you cant achieve actual perfection is MUCH better than the general attitude of souping film in fukitol at who knows what temperature rinsing with tap water that varies over 20* and fixer at who knows what temp followed by another rise.

It has taken me years of ignoring better darkroomers than me to figure the bit about temperature control out for myself.

After you have chemical mixing and temperature under control its time to talk about time. When you start your timer relative to when you pour chemicals into the tank, and when you empty the tank relative to when the timer stops both matter. Do it the same way every time. Try to pour your chemicals into and out of the tank the same way every time.

Now that we are here, the times listed for your developer & film may not give the results YOU want! Feel free to adjust them. As long as you are consistent and methodical I think you will do quite well.

If you still have highlight and contrast issues once you are consistent in the darkroom reduce development time bit by bit until your contrast and highlights are under control. You *could* underexpose in the camera to fix the highlights but this would not fix the contrast issue.

[flip]

How timely. I just got back a roll of color film with the same stripe.... Didn't see this last time I ran film through the camera. Maybe Yodobashi is slipping.

[wasabean]

thank you for the great insight! yes i am very new to it and i regret not finding out the joys of film earlier i shot digital for over 5 years (which is not long either i know) and never really enjoyed photography as i do now. i mean sure you get instant gratification with digital.

i am still documenting my work flow, i'm currently using an aquarium heater for my temp control which is by far easier than mixing hot and cold water in a water bath. i just need to buy more graduates, currently i have 2x500ml that i'm using to mix which is working out for me so far. it'll take me a while to perfect my darkroom workflow.

the only thing is all the trial and errors, i definitely don't want to use (production) film to test, i would need to find a way to use test film to to. how do guys go about testing film witout breaking the bank?

regarding the ligh meter, yeah, there is one in the fm2n, but i'm still trying to master (the arts) of using the lightmeter, that is one thing i need to focus more one. good i thing i didn't quit my day job right? lol

Originally Posted by Lord Nikon

I like how you compose, but whats with the blown highlights & high contrast?

I guess if that's the look your going for, sure. If not I'd spend some more time tweaking your scanning or other post-processing work.

If you cant save them with digital work or have a very hard time of it things go in a few directions at once.

You sound new to this, which is cool.
The biggest noob mistake is a lack of darkroom consistency. IMO there is really no point in even owning a light meter if you aren't consisntent in the darkroom. BANG! Its that important. Since you have a light meter in the FM2n (that camera is so good its like a gift from nikongod) you might as well make the most of it in the darkroom.

The right tools make work better.

Start with how you mix chemicals. You should fill your graduates more than 1/2 full to measure. None of that trying to measuring 1oz with a 32oz graduate (ask me how I know that this is a bad idea.) Buy a 1.5oz graduate if you need to measure 1oz. You can of course buy graduates as you need them - there is no need to own a whole set from 1oz to 1gallon if you only ever use the 2oz and 32oz sizes.

Once you are consistent with how you mix your chemicals their temperature is very important. 1*F matters. Try to keep everything within 1*F of whatever temperature you settle on and keep all of that exactly the same from session to session. You should try to get the temperature of all liquids exactly the same - developer, stop bath (if used), all rinse water, and fixer. This is not easy, but nothing worth doing is really easy and the results are SO worth the trouble.
If you think you need a nice thermometer, your right! Buy 2 and note how they read so your not totally screwed when you break one.

My temperature control suggestion is easily the hardest part of this. if you can't actually make 1*f consistency happen don't let it stop you. This is a really hard goal to achieve. I don't even make it happen. BUT I know that its important and I'm always trying to do my best. Knowing that you should do something a certain way and doing your best even though you cant achieve actual perfection is MUCH better than the general attitude of souping film in fukitol at who knows what temperature rinsing with tap water that varies over 20* and fixer at who knows what temp followed by another rise.

It has taken me years of ignoring better darkroomers than me to figure the bit about temperature control out for myself.

After you have chemical mixing and temperature under control its time to talk about time. When you start your timer relative to when you pour chemicals into the tank, and when you empty the tank relative to when the timer stops both matter. Do it the same way every time. Try to pour your chemicals into and out of the tank the same way every time.

Now that we are here, the times listed for your developer & film may not give the results YOU want! Feel free to adjust them. As long as you are consistent and methodical I think you will do quite well.

If you still have highlight and contrast issues once you are consistent in the darkroom reduce development time bit by bit until your contrast and highlights are under control. You *could* underexpose in the camera to fix the highlights but this would not fix the contrast issue.

[Lauffray]

Excellent advice indeed, I'll second the bit about temperature control.

[Lord Nikon]

First off, if you think you will use it buy your film in bulk and roll your own. This saves SO much money. In addition to the cost savings, I personally like that I can load each roll so that I get exactly 35 frames so that the negatives fit neatly into my storage sheets. I HATE having 3 extra frames that don't fit on the page with all their mates. I'm really nowhere near as OCD as this paragraph makes me out to be.

To learn:
Film has a STRONG advantage over digital in that it has lots of exposure latitude. Half a stop error will rarely (never) mess your photo up on B&W or color negative film where half a stop can be very important to a digital exposure. So take some comfort there. As with everything else it is better to be in control of whats going on, but there is some cushion for learning curve. Something else that is awesome about the FM2 (or most older film cameras) is that it was totally designed to be used manually. I really get the feeling that on more modern cameras the manual control is something the MFR's feel obliged to include, and do so as an afterthought with a bit of spite. Once you get the hang of it cameras designed to be used manually are very easy to use manually.

As a really affordable learning tool you could always shoot your digital camera manually. I find it kind of frustrating due to the "afterthought" feel of the whole thing and the narrow exposure latitude but it does give you experience in the process for no cost.

For testing film:
So there are 2 ways to go about this.
The first is very methodical, and probably the "better" way but I don't have the patience. It does burn a bit of film, but not much more than a few frames in a roll.

Basically you build a controlled test-target and shoot a frame or 2 of it under specific conditions on each roll. Then you shoot the rest of the film as you please and analyze the test frames at the end. Im a bit too lazy to do this, but it looks VERY promising.

The second is more seat-of-the pants.
The real goal in this whole exercise is to get a negative that scans (or prints) well with a minimum of extra work. When you have a negative like that is technically perfect, and want to do something technically perfect, or technically interesting with it this is very easy! When you have an technically imperfect negative and want a conventional looking scan or print life is hard. The hardest thing to do is maintain highlight and shaddow detail in scenes with wide dynamic range. So, go out and find something like that. On a bright sunny day look for a textured white building with something black and textured in a shadow. Shoot it and see what you get. When you have tricky lighting how you meter the scene is VERY important, and its important to be consistent, but that is covered in great detail in the YOB manual.

Whichever way you choose I would suggest buying & reading "the yob system" book. It explains all of this better than I can, and offers (what I think to be) a MUCH easier exposure system than the zone system. You can find used copies for like $5 here:

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/yob-...=9780817425135