One Trip, Seven X-rays

[goo0h]

Originally Posted by huntjump

Vic one more piece of advice from a fello Californian who travels with film.

If the film is ISO1600 or above, the TSA agent always will hand check it through. If it is under ISO 400, the TSA agents will try and force you through the bag x-ray (from my experience). You can protest, you'll likely win but just a added hassle.
I generally take my film out of the box and always say "these are high speed film. ISO 1600" its been easier in my experience

My travel experience is limited, but I did that with my trip to Peru, and got hand inspection at each entry point. It was a lot of film, too.

I'm thinking next time I'll try the Domke x-ray "proof" bags, and that way I don't have to try to flag someone down before the bags go into the scanner, but they'll notice, and then they can check it. The hardest part with hand inspection can be getting their attention before things go into the scanner without typing up the line behind you too much.

[Lauffray]

If you mail it, won't the packages also be scanned ?

[Vics]

Wow! I got a hand inspection at SFO, no TSA at DFW (next gate over) hand inspection at CDG boarding EasyJet to Toulouse, no XraY for the Irun-to-Madrid train and since I only took five rolls to Spain, I just stuck them in my pocket when I went trhru Xray in Madrid coming back to Hendaye. Got X-rayed at the Reina Sophia museum. On to Felixstowe on Ryan Air tomorrow, then back to France on EuroStar next week. So far, so good. At most, only four more Xrays left and I'm home! I'll keep smiling my "old man" smile and try for more hand inspections. Wish me luck

[Lauffray]

Originally Posted by cjbecker

I had tri-x 400 go through at least 300 x-rays before it finally got developed. everything was fine.

Wow, I'm curious, how did that happen ?

[rxmd]

I don't want to disappoint you, but I've had trips now where my film got scanned upwards of twenty times in funny countries and I have yet to see evidence of X-ray damage.

Checked luggage scanners are another story.

I'm not sure whether lead bags are a good idea either because of bremsstrahlung, the idea is that at high altitudes they convert the usual altitude radiation (i.e. cosmic rays, in other words energetic particles) into X-ray radiation inside your lead bag while on the plane. You can read about that online every now and then but I don't know how much is there about it.

[Haigh]

Do not put your films in a lead bag as the scanner will just crank up the power. I have my 400 asas film in a plastic bag and in its own tray and nowhere near bags or solid looking objects. Never had a problem even with multiple scans.
Enjoy your trip.

[Sparrow]

X-ray damage and the idea that the operator would by allowed to set the scanners power output are just two of the many things I read on the interweb that I don't believe happen in the real world ...

[Teuthida]

Originally Posted by ferider

Use ASA 400 or slower, and get some Hama leaded containers or bags. In the worst case that leads to a hand-inspection.

Roland.

IMHO, lead lined bags are useless. What happens is this: It goes thru the machine, is pulled out, put thru the machine again at higher dosage, pulled out again and the contents sent thru without the bag. then YOU are searched as if You are a terrorist.

the answer is simple: just ask for a hand check at any XRay device.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

IMHO, lead lined bags are useless. What happens is this: It goes thru the machine, is pulled out, put thru the machine again at higher dosage, pulled out again and the contents sent thru without the bag. then YOU are searched as if You are a terrorist.

the answer is simple: just ask for a hand check at any XRay device.

Never happened to me ... sounds more like an interweb myth

[rxmd]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

IMHO, lead lined bags are useless. What happens is this: It goes thru the machine, is pulled out, put thru the machine again at higher dosage, pulled out again and the contents sent thru without the bag. then YOU are searched as if You are a terrorist.

Do us a favour and try that and do ask the operator whether he's cranking up the output or merely fiddling with the contrast settings.

[sanmich]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

IMHO, lead lined bags are useless. What happens is this: It goes thru the machine, is pulled out, put thru the machine again at higher dosage, pulled out again and the contents sent thru without the bag. then YOU are searched as if You are a terrorist.

the answer is simple: just ask for a hand check at any XRay device.

Never happened to me either, and I sometimes put films in two lead bags ( double layer) rated for 1600 ISO.
I should have been now at Guantanamo by your theory
BTW, asking for a hand check is NOT well received in some places (airports in France, Turkey, entrance to the statue of liberty, all received an absolute "Niet" for hand check)

[sanmich]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

X-ray damage and the idea that the operator would by allowed to set the scanners power output are just two of the many things I read on the interweb that I don't believe happen in the real world ...

Why do you believe so?
why would the flight companies bother to warn you about Xrays and apply a specific procedure for them (ISO rating dependant) if it was all bogus?

And is the idea of the operator who is trained to identify threats being able to tune the imaging properties of the scanner that ludicrous?

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by sanmich

Why do you believe so?
why would the flight companies bother to warn you about Xrays and apply a specific procedure for them (ISO rating dependant) if it was all bogus?

And is the idea of the operator who is trained to identify threats being able to tune the imaging properties of the scanner that ludicrous?

Because those machines are an x-ray source the idea that national or super-national authorities would even allow such an adjustment facility to be fitted to the equipment never mind let some £6.00 an hour security guard play around with its settings is laughable.

[Sparrow]

.... oh, and why do they look in some bags? ... because they couldn't see the contents on the x-ray perhaps?

[Freakscene]

Originally Posted by goo0h

Now I'm puzzled. I always heard that when you use those x-ray bags, they simply crank up the power on those scanners, sometimes going through multiple times. So I got the impression they should not be used. However, now y'all are saying it's actually better to use them. ????

Don't use the lead bags. In some countries the security people will do a second run and give your film an additional radiation dose, in most countries the security people will ask you aside, make you open the lead bag, swab it, and if they don't like the look of you or need to fill their quota of searches, they will go through the rest of your hand luggage very closely (from my experience).

Originally Posted by Vics

I don't think they can manually turn the scanners up and down.

In some countries it is legal. Almost all scanners have the capacity to vary the dose.

Marty

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Freakscene

In some countries it is legal. Almost all scanners have the capacity to vary the dose.

Marty

How do you know this?

[raid]

I am considering using only digital equipment because of airport issues overseas. This is always an alternative if X ray is a problem

[craygc]

Someone needs to stop these old wife's tales... Carry on luggage scanners CANNOT be adjusted for power levels by the operators - full stop - they just don't work that way. And for one more time...

Hand carry on x-ray scanner units perform a single scan with most machines today being dual-energy type scanners. Dual energy type scanners pass x-rays first through your bags, etc, then through 3 barriers which in turn filter out high, low and pass-through energy. The detection from these 3 filtrations are then compared in the system's computing modules for interpretation and display. Within these scanners the initial power level of the scan beam is usually within the range of 140 to 160 kilovolt peak. The colour changes you see on the screen are merely differing representations of metal, organic and inorganic objects achieved by performing additive and subtractive transformations on the different engergy levels calculated from the filterings at the 3 barriers of a single pass scan - although operators can reverse an object back into the beam for another scan. The scan energy level is set on these machines and cannot be arbitrarily increased by an operator.

[Freakscene]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

How do you know this?

I've worked in airport security and have checked on machines in about 20 countries.

Marty

[Freakscene]

Originally Posted by craygc

Someone needs to stop these old wife's tales... Carry on luggage scanners CANNOT be adjusted for power levels by the operators - full stop - they just don't work that way. And for one more time...

I never said the power level can be varied. It can't in the vast majority of units, but many of them have the capacity to use multiple scans which the scanner software compiles into a single image - it's like an HDR photo. This can be selected. In some countries operators are authorised to do this, in some they are not. Where they are not authorised to use this function, the control on the machine is disabled. In Australia they are not authorised to do so, and security uses hand checks if the item looks x-ray dense or suspicious.

Originally Posted by craygc

although operators can reverse an object back into the beam for another scan.

An automated version of this is what I was referring to.

I have passed an x-ray meter through scanners in about 20 countries and the dose is remarkably stable within a machine design. It was only in a few developing countries that I noticed any significant change in the dose.

Marty

[rxmd]

Originally Posted by Freakscene

I've worked in airport security and have checked on machines in about 20 countries.

I guess then one should differentiate between difference between the "capacity to vary the dose", which is usually possible for calibration, adjustment, setup etc., and whether this is an easily operator-accessible function, which it usually isn't.

As for the countries where it is "legal" (or rather where airport operators are radiation-exposure-legislation-respecting and lawsuit-fearing), let's check the list the OP was visiting: the US, France, GB and Spain.

[rxmd]

Originally Posted by Freakscene

I never said the power level can be varied.

I think you made an edit there just now.
Here's your posting as of now, emphasis mine:

Originally Posted by Freakscene

Don't use the lead bags. In some countries the security people will do a second run and give your film an additional radiation dose, in most countries the security people will ask you aside, make you open the lead bag, swab it, and if they don't like the look of you or need to fill their quota of searches, they will go through the rest of your hand luggage very closely (from my experience).

And here's the version you originally posted, that I happened to still have that open in my reply window, emphasis mine:

Originally Posted by Freakscene

Don't use the lead bags. In some countries the security people will do a second run at higher power, in most countries the security people will ask you aside, make you open the lead bag, swab it, and if they don't like the look of you or need to fill their quota of searches, they will go through the rest of your hand luggage very closely (from my experience).

So much for never having said something. We can now argue whether "at higher power" implies "the power level can be varied" or not, but that seems pointless.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Freakscene

I never said the power level can be varied. It can't in the vast majority of units, but many of them have the capacity to use multiple scans which the scanner software compiles into a single image - it's like an HDR photo. This can be selected. In some countries operators are authorised to do this, in some they are not. Where they are not authorised to use this function, the control on the machine is disabled. In Australia they are not authorised to do so, and security uses hand checks if the item looks x-ray dense or suspicious.



An automated version of this is what I was referring to.

I have passed an x-ray meter through scanners in about 20 countries and the dose is remarkably stable within a machine design. It was only in a few developing countries that I noticed any significant change in the dose.

Marty

Well isn't that what we were saying? that this idea that the operator will "crank up the power" and "fry your film" is a joke ... at one time I did US sales trips at least once a year sometimes two, and I'd just take a little Oly mju and some film in my hand luggage, Manchester, Dublin, Boston drive to Baltimore, Charlotte, Charleston, Charlotte, St. Louis, Chicago, Montreal, Dublin and back to Manchester without noticeable damage ... so you will understand my scepticism of those crying Wolf

[Pastor Chris]

When traveling to Africa I just carry my film in my shoulder bag in clear ziplock bags and present it for hand search. No problems and no X-rays.

[Freakscene]

Originally Posted by rxmd

I think you made an edit there just now.

I changed it almost right away; I certainly didn't mean to be disingenuous.

Originally Posted by rxmd

So much for never having said something. We can now argue whether "at higher power" implies "the power level can be varied" or not, but that seems pointless.

It is pointless. The effect on the film depends on the dose, including the number of scans.

Marty