BW film developing - drying marks

[mdarnton]

I just got back into this stuff after a couple of decade hiatus, and have learned some new tricks. I used to use tap water and photoflo, then leave the film to hang. I used to get spots. From that, I learned to use a folded paper towel lightly and slowly against one side of the film at a time, which worked better.

Sponges like to hold on to crud. I would never use a sponge.

Coming back, I learned about distilled water, so I tried that, alone, and it worked good. Then I added photoflo and that worked fine, then I added back the wiping, and that worked fine. I think the big step, though, was the distilled water. I'm sold on the stuff now, and can take the photo flow or leave it. Don't try to wipe negs that have just the bare water, no photoflo--they're a bit stickier, and wiping doesn't work so nicely.

I'm inclined to say bare distilled water is the best, though.

One thought: you don't want film in your tank at the same time as concentrated photoflo--take out the film and mix in the photoflo well, then put the film back in. If you get even a droplet of concentrated photoflo on the negs, that will cause you pain. Sure, you can be lucky most of the time, and maybe it hasn't happened to you yet. . . .

Second thought: I grew up a few miles from one of the world's largest holes, a limestone quarry, and my town made cement. Back then, in the 50s, it coated the whole north side of town. The only way you could get it off your car windshield was with vinegar. I imagine that might remove water spots, and if you wiped it off carefully after, you'd be fine--it's not inherently dangerous to anything in the film.

[caasols]

I rinse the film after developing it for 2 minutes, do a proper wash by shaking it and t hen rinse again.
I finalize by adding then wetting agent (10ml for 1l of water).

Just be sure if you don't have calcareous water in your zone.. if you do, do the final step with distilled water.

[NLewis]

I agree that wetting agent recommended dilutions are too high. Maybe they are trying to compensate for the hardest water around. Cut it in half or less, and mix with distilled water, not tap water.

[thomasw_]

This is a very good old thread, thanks for resurrecting it.

First measure to take is to throw away any type of squeegee or cloth wiping device; there's no need to introduce an unnecessary physical force to your negs. Now, bear in mind, I live in an area with tap water that will leave terrible marks after drying. These are the steps I used to eliminate them as much as possible:

1. do my LFN final rinse in distilled or filtered water

2. keeping the film on the spool, use a lettuce/salad spinner to get most of the residual rinsing water off of my negs before hanging them to dry; i use a counter-balancing technique of four spools held in place by rubber elastics

3. use a drying cabinet, hanging the negs at a bit of a slant

I have eliminated drying marks or scratching with these measures.

[Ronald M]

Dry marks are dissolved crud in the water that does not sheet off. Use enough wetting agent so water sheets off before drying. Alcohol will make matters worse.

Clean distilled water or highly filtered wash water will get rid of dissolved solids. Use the Ilford method and very little water is required.

Every thing needs to be super clean, chem bottles, tanks, reels, room, water, air, everything. Then all this goes away.

[kdemas]

Originally Posted by thomasw_

This is a very good old thread, thanks for resurrecting it.

First measure to take is to throw away any type of squeegee or cloth wiping device; there's no need to introduce an unnecessary physical force to your negs. Now, bear in mind, I live in an area with tap water that will leave terrible marks after drying. These are the steps I used to eliminate them as much as possible:

1. do my LFN final rinse in distilled or filtered water

2. keeping the film on the spool, use a lettuce/salad spinner to get most of the residual rinsing water off of my negs before hanging them to dry; i use a counter-balancing technique of four spools held in place by rubber elastics

3. use a drying cabinet, hanging the negs at a bit of a slant

I have eliminated drying marks or scratching with these measures.

That salad spinner idea is a great one! I've thought of blowing a hair dryer at full force, on cool, through the plastic reel after the requisite shake. Might try tomorrow for the heck of it.

[kdemas]

Originally Posted by kdemas

That salad spinner idea is a great one! I've thought of blowing a hair dryer at full force, on cool, through the plastic reel after the requisite shake. Might try tomorrow for the heck of it.

PS- Air for just a few seconds to blow off the excess water remnants.

[filmfan]

I don't do any of this stuff. I get water marks. I have yet to see them show up on a scan, or print in the darkroom/inkjet (up to 16x20).

[RFH]

Distilled water does the trick for me. My negatives have never been cleaner since I started using it.

[gilpen123]

No squeegee for me as well. I just use my fingers to run softly thru the film. I also use 1-2 small drop of Joy liquid dish washing soap and make sure you don't create suds or make it soapy.

[BobYIL]

The trick with the final washing water is to have most capillary action so that water will drain off of the surface gradually, smoothly as a continuously thinning film without leaving drops behind. A few drops of Photoflo or one spoonful of alcohol in the final washing can help; wipe off with wet fingers in one stroke down. In case of drop stains when dried, gently wipe with isopropyl alcohol.

[sepiareverb]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Photo Wipes (now known as Tidi Wipes or KayPees). I've used these for all roll films since 1982 and I can count on one hand the number of times I've had water marks or dust. This is more than 5000 rolls of 120 and 35mm film. I am a pig, my studio is always dusty, with cat and dog hair, dust and etc. Until this past summer I never had a drying space with a door on it. No need to ever deal with water marks or stuck on dust again.

Sprint End-Run mixed with distilled water as per the bottle instructions, I take the reel out of the solution, let it drip a moment, give it a gentle shake, pull the film off the reel, wipe once in a single motion with a half a Wipe (folded in half to make a 1" x 6" or so wad, then again around the film) held between index and middle fingers, clip the empty cassette (with the roll number with 35mm) or a wooden clothes pin to one end, a laundry hook/clothespin to the other end and hang 'em to dry. They dry faster, and completely mark & dust free. I was taught this method by Paul Krot who founded Sprint in 1982 and have never had troubles with any post processing defects on my films other than cutting them incorrectly.

I've lately been using Agfa Sistan as well, and mixing it per directions with distilled water, then adding the End Run stock to this as if it was water. I like End Run for the Anti-Static properties.

Anyone plagued by water marks can eliminate them pretty much forever by using this method.

[Bingley]

Originally Posted by pshinkaw

Try and do a final rinse in distilled water, just a simple pass-thru. Then dilute your wetting agent in distilled water. Your tap water probably has a high solids content.

-Paul

This is also what I do, in addition to using a wetting agent. The tap water where I live has a fairly high mineral content. I've had no problems with drying marks, though, since I started using distilled water for the final wash and also for the wetting agent.

[DRabbit]

Originally Posted by Bingley

This is also what I do, in addition to using a wetting agent. The tap water where I live has a fairly high mineral content. I've had no problems with drying marks, though, since I started using distilled water for the final wash and also for the wetting agent.

Same. I only have problems with drying marks when I'm lazy and don't get distilled water for final rinse (with photo flo). I do squeegee the film between two fingers before hanging to dry and it does help, but distilled water is the best way to go.

[Film explorer]

Originally Posted by Bingley

This is also what I do, in addition to using a wetting agent. The tap water where I live has a fairly high mineral content. I've had no problems with drying marks, though, since I started using distilled water for the final wash and also for the wetting agent.

I will remember to do this method with distilled water for the final wash next time.

Thankyou for the advice!

[Haigh]

I use a wetting agent and distilled water. Works every time.

[starless]

I've found out that as long as you do the last wash with distilled water there is no need for Photo-Flo or any other chemicals.

[Toni Nikkanen]

I have a simple nonconventional method that nobody seems to agree with (probably because it's too easy...), but I get drying mark-free negatives consistently, even with the superhard Berlin tap water that I use for mixing my chemicals and for the rinses.. That is:

I don't use squeegees, sponges, nor do I wipe the film with anything.

I don't use wetting agens, HCA's, photo-flo, agepon... Just developer, stop bath, fixer, and:

After fixing, I rinse the film under running water for 10-13 minutes. Then, I pour in distilled water, rotate the film spirals a few times and let it be for a minute. Then I hang the films to dry in the bathroom - not in any special way, just top to bottom with a weight at the bottom. That's it. I reuse one liter of distilled water for 10-15 rolls of film and it costs me 1,45 euro per 5 liters, so it's not such a big cost.

This method is very unpopular and nobody ever suggests it, yet I find it works perfectly for me and is the simplest method I've ever heard of.

[antistatic]

I also had probelms with drying marks and also recently found distilled water with a tiny drop of photoflow for the final rinse has made a big difference for the better.

[grantb]

I was having good results with a final rinse of distilled water.

Then I ran out of distilled water and just used tap water. I started getting water spots.

So I bought more distilled for my final rinse. I got worse water spots than ever before!

The only thing that's changed is my brand of water. Is it possible that all "distilled" water is not equal? I'm going back to the old one next time to test this theory. Also I have some Photo Flo on the way.

[Toni Nikkanen]

It could be there are quality differences. What I've used is not technically really 100% pure distilled water, but battery water meant for things like car batteries and for using in steam irons etc. I've used about 3 different brands and all of them have worked fine so far.

If you had this problem only once, maybe it's actually something that happened during the development phase? I had a period where all my films had nasty "blotches" in them and I finally figured it's because the quality of the tap water had changed due to a difficult winter - I even contacted the waterworks and they said the tap water was harder and more alkaline than usually during that period. So in that case I started to mix my developer into distilled water, and problem gone. I no longer live in that area and usually use tap water for the developer again..
The fixer doesn't appear to be so sensitive to water quality..

[crispy12]

I decided to buy some Photo Flo because I happened to be buying printing paper at the photo store. Never realised it was so cheap, $6.50 for a 300-500ml sized bottle. I don't think I'll ever finish that bottle, the last roll I developed used about a teaspoon and it was already way too much!

Also not a single drying mark on that roll, and I didn't even bother to squeegee the negs with my fingers.

[daveywaugh]

Originally Posted by pshinkaw

Try and do a final rinse in distilled water, just a simple pass-thru. Then dilute your wetting agent in distilled water. Your tap water probably has a high solids content.

-Paul

I'll second that. If I follow that advice I never have a problem - if I don't, I get drying marks about 50% of the time.

[daveywaugh]

Well I guess 7th it ;-) Just read the rest of the comments. I just use it for the final Photo-Flo and it works perfectly. For lesser quality water, try the final rinse also as suggested.

[john341]

I agree. A little detergent in the final rinse then hang somewhere comfortable ( I use the shower recess) for a slow dry...no marks.