Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > 35mm Film Range Finders > Leica Screw Mount / LTM Cameras

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

Do you believe this?
Old 02-15-2012   #1
greyelm
Malcolm
 
greyelm's Avatar
 
greyelm is offline
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,740
Do you believe this?

Check this out. http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Leica-I...0#ht_822wt_922

This looks a bit iffy to me. What do you think?
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-15-2012   #2
agricola
Registered User
 
agricola is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 189
Malcolm
I agree. However a lot can be lost in translation. The seller is German and the feedback is 100% and (from a quick look) in German.
Interesting listing and, like you no doubt :-) I will keep an eye on it.
Looks to be in good nick?
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-15-2012   #3
Mr_Flibble
Registered User
 
Mr_Flibble's Avatar
 
Mr_Flibble is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Lowlands
Age: 37
Posts: 2,904
I think the Kriegsberichter story is probably bogus,

A nice late/post-war IIIc, maybe even with an unmarked "K"-shutter? Tom can no doubt confirm it.




Added to the watch list...just to see where it goes...
__________________
Rick - "If you're gonna shoot, shoot! Don't Talk"
Loaded with film: Couple of Riteway film holders

Latest Toys: Leica IIIb, Summar and MOOLY
Latest Activity: Passendaele Museum
My Blog/Galleries
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-15-2012   #4
pvdhaar
Zoom with your feet!
 
pvdhaar's Avatar
 
pvdhaar is offline
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,930
Seller states "Purchase at your own risk, no warranty, no return!"

For me, this says enough.. If it were real, the seller would agree to have the camera verified and returned when found fake.
__________________
Kind regards,

Peter

My Hexländer Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-15-2012   #5
David Hughes
Registered User
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,281
Hmmm, I'll go along with it being a IIIc but who knows who put the little bit of engraving on it? And don't Leica have records? 'nuff said?

Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-15-2012   #6
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
 
sevo is offline
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Frankfurt, Germany
Posts: 4,492
"I cannot guarantee this label is original", no returns, and a German seller who makes believe he researched the number and still does not know it would be "KriegsberichtERSTATTer". Sounds extremely bogus.

And instinctively I find a duplicate SS (or whatever other party or army division) and KB on the label a bit odd - inventory numbers were not decorative labels but boring property marks, and the camera should have been either Propaganda Ministry (KB mark) or SS property, but can hardly have been both.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-15-2012   #7
bowieknife
Registered User
 
bowieknife is offline
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 90
seems correct IMHO:
http://www.google.lu/search?q=ss+kri...iw=652&bih=978
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-15-2012   #8
haempe
negative guy
 
haempe is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by sevo View Post
"I cannot guarantee this label is original", no returns, and a German seller who makes believe he researched the number and still does not know it would be "KriegsberichtERSTATTer". Sounds extremely bogus.

And instinctively I find a duplicate SS (or whatever other party or army division) and KB on the label a bit odd - inventory numbers were not decorative labels but boring property marks, and the camera should have been either Propaganda Ministry (KB mark) or SS property, but can hardly have been both.
The $$-KB number system is correct.
Saw this a few times on equipment and prints/neg sleeves.
This ID was used by censors and for archiving.
$$ stands for Waffen-$$, KB for Kriegsberichter, the number stands for the corespondent/photographer.
Kriegsberichter instead of Kriegsberichterstatter is a usual abbreviation.
I can't/wouldn't say its original, but if it's faked, it is well researched...
__________________
*
There is still a analogue world out there...

  Reply With Quote

Old 02-17-2012   #9
David Hughes
Registered User
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,281
Well, I still can't say for sure but I wonder how long it would take to engrave 8 numbers etc on something. And their must be a lot of archives with records of these things, examples in museums etc. And there's a lot of IIIc's about with the right and genuine year serial numbers.

Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-17-2012   #10
haempe
negative guy
 
haempe is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Well, I still can't say for sure but I wonder how long it would take to engrave 8 numbers etc on something. And their must be a lot of archives with records of these things, examples in museums etc. And there's a lot of IIIc's about with the right and genuine year serial numbers.

Regards, David
David, I have seen a camera with a similar engraving, but also without confirmation of originality.
I also saw a camera case and lens case with a similar marking, these are probably original, because no one requested to make money with it. Came from an estate to the museum.
But we should consider, here we are talking about a single propaganda unit (the SS-Kb-Abt.) which has used this ID, maybe a few more than hundred cameras during the war.

But I agree with you, easy to fake, if you have the knowledge about the ID-system and a body with matching serial number.
__________________
*
There is still a analogue world out there...

  Reply With Quote

iiic ss
Old 02-17-2012   #11
enasniearth
Registered User
 
enasniearth is offline
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 289
iiic ss

the serial number 393xxx is too late to be a wartime camera . was probably delivered post may 1945 - nov 1945 . wartime deliverys ended before 292xxx .
interesting as the typeface appears correct on the engraveing .
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-17-2012   #12
David Hughes
Registered User
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,281
Quote:
Originally Posted by haempe View Post
David, I have seen a camera with a similar engraving, but also without confirmation of originality.
I also saw a camera case and lens case with a similar marking, these are probably original, because no one requested to make money with it. Came from an estate to the museum.
But we should consider, here we are talking about a single propaganda unit (the SS-Kb-Abt.) which has used this ID, maybe a few more than hundred cameras during the war.

But I agree with you, easy to fake, if you have the knowledge about the ID-system and a body with matching serial number.
Hi,

Yes, that's the problem. It's a bit of a grey area and could be 100% genuine or 100% fake. It could even be based on the one you saw!

Worse still, some naughty person out there has seen this and he or she may well be looking for an early FED I* or even a 1940 Leica to convert very carefully. And this thread will confirm it could be genuine. And, given the chaos in 1945/46 who can say what's what without a lot of research?

I'm just glad I don't collect such things. I've my own memories of that period and that's enough for me. As I dare say, a lot of others have on both sides. There are times when I wish forgetting was as easy as forgiving.

Regards, David

* Just a thought, what happened to the FED I's when the 3rd Reich reached the USSR's cameras factories? Are there any genuine commandeered FED's out there with the same markings? It happened with binoculars during the Great War...
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-17-2012   #13
haempe
negative guy
 
haempe is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 933
David,
as FED is located in Kharkov, I doubt the Germans had reerected the production during the few month of occupation 1942-43. So I don't believe in Nazi-Leica-copies from the orphanage in Kharkov...

I just want to give some details I've encountered some years ago more or less coincidently. I'm not a collector, just have some interest in history. And to be honest, I'm always sceptical with collectors of SS devotionals. Too many collect this stuff for the wrong reasons.
__________________
*
There is still a analogue world out there...

  Reply With Quote

Old 02-17-2012   #14
notraces
Bob Smith
 
notraces is offline
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 270
Here's an interesting link -- you can translate it in Google Chrome:

http://www.kamerad.com/schwarz/?p=697
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-17-2012   #15
farlymac
PF McFarland
 
farlymac is offline
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 3,429
Too bad he doesn't show the back of the camera. Would be intersesting to compare that one, and the one in the OP.

PF
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-17-2012   #16
LeicaTom
Watch that step!
 
LeicaTom's Avatar
 
LeicaTom is offline
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Winter Haven Florida
Age: 50
Posts: 2,537
Terrible waste of a once great US Army camera

A #393xxx issued series Leica IIIC camera Nov/Dec 1945 to US Army Forces in Germany, normal bearing shutter "stepper" that someone scribed that horrible Nazi crap on a perfectly good camera to boost the value, the camera is WORTHLESS junk now.

Makes me sick to see a really nice survivor US Army camera defaced like that, just to make a buck and people being too ingnorant about Leica history, they see a stepped rewind platform and think right away it's a wartime camera, just a sad waste of a once fine original (and very rare) postwar US Army Leica camera.

I have written the seller to tell him what he has, despite him knowing the camera is a fake , it will still sell and fool a whole lot of people there at evilbay.

Shame shame :/

Tom
__________________


WW 2 Leica Historian and Rare Military Leica Camera and Lens Consultant Services (for Civilian and Military Engraved Leica IIIC "Stepper" and IIIC K models made between 1940 to 1946)

I'm a Retro PinUp Photographer using vintage M39/LTM Leica/ CZJ Sonnar/ Nippon Kogaku and Canon lenses with a Leica M8 Digital
I'm also a Vintage Volkswagen Collector, Driver and Enthusiast ~ I own a 1957 "Oval Window" Beetle named "Blauchen" (oV!Vo) Beep!

http://www.modelmayhem.com/118
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-18-2012   #17
Registered User
 
raytoei@gmail.com's Avatar
 
[email protected] is offline
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,907
i came to the conclusion that the camera is in too good a condition to be without papers or history. there was no mention of cla or repairs.
__________________
------------------------------------
Film is Photography.
------------------------------------
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-18-2012   #18
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
 
rxmd's Avatar
 
rxmd is offline
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kyrgyzstan
Posts: 5,826
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeicaTom View Post
A #393xxx issued series Leica IIIC camera Nov/Dec 1945 to US Army Forces in Germany, normal bearing shutter "stepper" that someone scribed that horrible Nazi crap on a perfectly good camera to boost the value, the camera is WORTHLESS junk now.
If it doesn't go much higher, it could still be a nice shooter.
__________________
Bing! You're hypnotized!
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-18-2012   #19
LeicaTom
Watch that step!
 
LeicaTom's Avatar
 
LeicaTom is offline
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Winter Haven Florida
Age: 50
Posts: 2,537
Quote:
Originally Posted by rxmd View Post
If it doesn't go much higher, it could still be a nice shooter.
yeh, true true........."stepper" IIIC's are getting all but almost impossible to find anymore for shooters/user cameras.

I got *lucky* last week and found another 45' IIIC (K) shutter one from August 4th ~ will have to do a full CLA and also a replacement RLM-75 Grey shell, but it will go back to original state as was issued to the US Army in 1945.

Tom
__________________


WW 2 Leica Historian and Rare Military Leica Camera and Lens Consultant Services (for Civilian and Military Engraved Leica IIIC "Stepper" and IIIC K models made between 1940 to 1946)

I'm a Retro PinUp Photographer using vintage M39/LTM Leica/ CZJ Sonnar/ Nippon Kogaku and Canon lenses with a Leica M8 Digital
I'm also a Vintage Volkswagen Collector, Driver and Enthusiast ~ I own a 1957 "Oval Window" Beetle named "Blauchen" (oV!Vo) Beep!

http://www.modelmayhem.com/118
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-18-2012   #20
David Hughes
Registered User
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,281
Quote:
Originally Posted by haempe View Post
David,
as FED is located in Kharkov, I doubt the Germans had reerected the production during the few month of occupation 1942-43. So I don't believe in Nazi-Leica-copies from the orphanage in Kharkov...

I just want to give some details I've encountered some years ago more or less coincidently. I'm not a collector, just have some interest in history. And to be honest, I'm always sceptical with collectors of SS devotionals. Too many collect this stuff for the wrong reasons.
Hi,

I was thinking of commandeered stuff mostly. In the UK we had a system of grading and issuing captured stuff. It happened with binoculars in the Great War, as I said, and was/is very useful if you find one in a flea market. (Mostly it happened because the British Army decided to re-equip with the new Zeiss bin's and then decided to go to war with their homeland. Bad timing etc by the politicians, as usual.)

So I wondered if there was a similar scheme for captured stuff elsewhere. That could explain the odd marks and - bitter experience in other fields shows - people never do enough research. Odd really, it's fairly easy, if expensive, to get your hands on the original papers and so on from the official archives.

Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-18-2012   #21
haempe
negative guy
 
haempe is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Hi,

I was thinking of commandeered stuff mostly. In the UK we had a system of grading and issuing captured stuff. It happened with binoculars in the Great War, as I said, and was/is very useful if you find one in a flea market. (Mostly it happened because the British Army decided to re-equip with the new Zeiss bin's and then decided to go to war with their homeland. Bad timing etc by the politicians, as usual.)

So I wondered if there was a similar scheme for captured stuff elsewhere. That could explain the odd marks and - bitter experience in other fields shows - people never do enough research. Odd really, it's fairly easy, if expensive, to get your hands on the original papers and so on from the official archives.

Regards, David
Yes, the german army brought captured equipment back into own use. But they had enormous claims in the avalaible amount, because of the high effort in typing, refurbishing/repairing/rebuilding to german standards, creating manuals and service regulations, provision of spare parts etc... I don't think, they captured enough of this cameras, to justify this effort. Equipment from this category was usually given to the allies ...
I think, we go a bit off topic here, however, you can send me an PM, if you like to discuss this further ...
Best regards,
__________________
*
There is still a analogue world out there...

  Reply With Quote

Old 02-18-2012   #22
LeicaTom
Watch that step!
 
LeicaTom's Avatar
 
LeicaTom is offline
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Winter Haven Florida
Age: 50
Posts: 2,537
Vintage Leica, Nikon or Canon........leave it up to the buyer, we'll see that even the BOGUS camera the OP originally posted about even brings a crazy price! :/

Tom
__________________


WW 2 Leica Historian and Rare Military Leica Camera and Lens Consultant Services (for Civilian and Military Engraved Leica IIIC "Stepper" and IIIC K models made between 1940 to 1946)

I'm a Retro PinUp Photographer using vintage M39/LTM Leica/ CZJ Sonnar/ Nippon Kogaku and Canon lenses with a Leica M8 Digital
I'm also a Vintage Volkswagen Collector, Driver and Enthusiast ~ I own a 1957 "Oval Window" Beetle named "Blauchen" (oV!Vo) Beep!

http://www.modelmayhem.com/118
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2012   #23
David Hughes
Registered User
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,281
This thread gets better and better.

Since we are talking in both general terms and specific I wondered if I might throw this into the pot and stir it a little; just in case people come across other "wrong" cameras with the "right" markings from that period...



In case it's not too clear it's dated 14th July 1943. It also says " ... prompt cash - you will get an amount now which will buy more, after the war, than the camera you sell... ". I guess a lot of people got a shock later on.

Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2012   #24
awbphotog
Registered User
 
awbphotog's Avatar
 
awbphotog is offline
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Baltimore, MD
Age: 25
Posts: 242
The part in the ad that says "You can hear him humming." Creepy.
__________________
My blog: HERE!

Ricoh GR
Bessa R
Fuji G690BL
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2012   #25
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
 
batterytypehah!'s Avatar
 
batterytypehah! is offline
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New England, USA
Posts: 1,774
Quote:
Originally Posted by awbphotog View Post
The part in the ad that says "You can hear him humming." Creepy.
That's not creepy, that's simply poor English. "Him" is the shutter (masculine in German).
__________________
WANTED: Fujimoto/Lucky 70M negative carrier

“Hair-splitting, of course. But hey, it's a LEICA. Probably there are those who get excited about the colour of the hairs you split.” – Roger Hicks

Contax IIa + Leica IIIf + M3 (project) + Zorki-1 (project) + Fuji GS645 + FED-2 + Vitomatic II + Revue 400SE + Olympus XA + more + still more
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:11.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.