Old 12-15-2010   #41
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I saw this one too yesterday. I'm currently watching to see what the bidders do, though I doubt it will stay affordable for me (already invested most of my disposable income in a new toy that goes on my firearms permit this month ) .

Would you replace the vulcanite or keep it original? I think I'd replace it if I was going to use it frequently.
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Old 12-15-2010   #42
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ooh - at that price, it would be cheaper than finishing my project K - bet it goes over AUS$1,000 though.
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Old 12-16-2010   #43
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With that camera, I would just inject some glue under the remaining vulcanite and keep it permanently in a "long nose" case or a sturdy "half case" ~ I wouldn't bother replacing the vulcanite with a correct shell and repaint, the damage/patina is already in the paint this cameras condition is already "user" grade it will never be better condition......it is the perfect user, get it CLA'd and it's ready to take up where the last owner left off.
(I would restore/replace vulcanite only on cameras that are 85% paint or better grade)

If it goes over $1,000 US Dollars that's the sign of a desperate public

Tom
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Old 12-16-2010   #44
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John,

That CCR Luton vulcanite you have on yours, would it be possible to spray paint that to the correct colour (with some of the paint you obtained, where did that come from again?)

That camera will be too rich for my blood, no matter what. Haven't got a dime of disposable income now and for some time to come, but yet I was wondering...

Pretty sure this IIIc-K will go past USD 1,000 because those desperate buyers are on eBay for sure. Somebody will have it serviced, re-covered and find a wartime Elmar for it, to subsequently show it off (and hopefully shoot it)
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Old 12-16-2010   #45
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[quote=buzzardkid;1492421]John,

That CCR Luton vulcanite you have on yours, would it be possible to spray paint that to the correct colour (with some of the paint you obtained, where did that come from again?)
quote]

Johan,

I could spray it - in fact the original covering on that camera was grey (as far as I can determine). I may try that on this one, as a trial for the K when that's finished,

The paint came from HMG in Manchester - they made it up specially for me. It's nitrocellulose base, so spraying should be OK. I thought about using a stoving enamel, but they thought it would fill the engravings too much.
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Old 12-16-2010   #46
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[quote=john neal;1492553]
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzardkid View Post
John,

That CCR Luton vulcanite you have on yours, would it be possible to spray paint that to the correct colour (with some of the paint you obtained, where did that come from again?)
quote]

Johan,

I could spray it - in fact the original covering on that camera was grey (as far as I can determine). I may try that on this one, as a trial for the K when that's finished,

The paint came from HMG in Manchester - they made it up specially for me. It's nitrocellulose base, so spraying should be OK. I thought about using a stoving enamel, but they thought it would fill the engravings too much.
John,

When can you do a chip test for me? ~ I would like to see how close they got your paint.......

The Grey painted IIIC K's had the RLM paint and the postwar chrome cameras had a real dark grey (discolored) looking vulcanite a different shade than the Black, Grey over spraypainted stuff.

May/June 1945 was an impossible time for supplies at the factory and I'm surprised that the factory could even make vulcanite and chrome a few hundred cameras!

Tom
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Old 12-16-2010   #47
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Giving a heads up to anyone who might be interested in a "real" IIIC K Grey here on evilbay......



http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-IIIc-K-gre...item1c17d61459

This camera really got used hard in the past two years (it sold originally like 2 years ago or so from a dealer on evilbay) and was in much better shape then as it is now, as I recall it had most of it's vulcanite then and less wear, this camera now looks like it was used during the Normandy landings (just kidding!)

It is an original 1945 issued camera, issued the same day as one of mine was, sadly the original Elmar lens is gone ~ I would be going after this one myself, but getting my M6 project camera is MORE IMPORTANT to me now and I can't afford both...........

I'm sad to see the camera's in such bad shape, after how nice it was 2 years ago (I used my one camera for some daily work and I always took extra care when using it) ~ though honestly this camera now has a great patina and would make the ULTIMATE "user" IIIC K Grey, these cameras in this condition are hard to find in this grade and I suppose that the price will stay down??? Who knows???
(a broken early 1960's Black Paint M3 sold the other day for over $4k, so there's no telling, even beat up and broken RARE cameras bring some $$$$).

I have no connection whatsoever to the seller, I post this only as a favor to anyone here who might be in the market for a camera that I can see personally is a original 1945 US Army issued camera.

Tom
Tom,

I was wondering if you knew why some of these IIIc-K's were separated from their original Elmar lens and some maintained their 'relationship/pairing' with their original lens?

I had another look at Westlichts auction past results. What I noticed at Westlicht was that the grey K cameras with the K on the shutter sold close to those grey cameras that had their shutter replaced but came with the original lens.

Meaning the K shutter is just as highly prized in monetary termas as is the original lens. Is that what you have found with your research with these cameras?

Also, those K cameras with military markings like Luftwaffen, Heer etc are even more expensive!

I too have been monitoring that camera on my watch list that you posted above on ebay. It is a shame that the vulcanite is missing at the front, but I guess if it was intact then it would no doubt be worth a lot more money, even though it doesn't have the original lens? (Hence more in the collector bracket in finance terms). Also, in terms of numbers, how many K cameras were issued on the same day as this camera and yours?

Thanks again for your insight,
Jaans
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Old 12-16-2010   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Flibble View Post
I saw this one too yesterday. I'm currently watching to see what the bidders do, though I doubt it will stay affordable for me (already invested most of my disposable income in a new toy that goes on my firearms permit this month ) .

Would you replace the vulcanite or keep it original? I think I'd replace it if I was going to use it frequently.
Mr Fibble,

It seems that a few of us are watching this camera on rangefinder forum^^

I have also been wondering what I would do if I won this camera? Would it be best to leave it in its original state or would replacing the vulcanite be the best option. Tom's idea of using a half-case and glue sounds like a practical solution, as the integrity of the camera remains intact!

But, if anyone has done this, I'm wondering if it would be more expensive to replace the vulcanite, or would doing that decrease the value of the camera in the long run?

If anyone has information about this, then I would enjoy reading about your experiences as it does remain a potential project of mine.

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Old 12-16-2010   #49
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Originally Posted by Jaans View Post
Tom,

I was wondering if you knew why some of these IIIc-K's were separated from their original Elmar lens and some maintained their 'relationship/pairing' with their original lens?

I had another look at Westlichts auction past results. What I noticed at Westlicht was that the grey K cameras with the K on the shutter sold close to those grey cameras that had their shutter replaced but came with the original lens.

Meaning the K shutter is just as highly prized in monetary termas as is the original lens. Is that what you have found with your research with these cameras?

Also, those K cameras with military markings like Luftwaffen, Heer etc are even more expensive!

I too have been monitoring that camera on my watch list that you posted above on ebay. It is a shame that the vulcanite is missing at the front, but I guess if it was intact then it would no doubt be worth a lot more money, even though it doesn't have the original lens? (Hence more in the collector bracket in finance terms). Also, in terms of numbers, how many K cameras were issued on the same day as this camera and yours?

Thanks again for your insight,
Jaans
Many cameras were separated from their original lenses because they were either lost of destroyed in wartime (pre 1945 cameras) , but on the most part they were parted because of GREED, most dealers NEVER sell a camera with it's original issued lens together, they always part them out to get that extra $300 out of a deal.......pathetic in my opinion, but that's life in the camera business. ~ sacrifice history for money, happens all the time, I'm very lucky to have (three) IIIC K Grey's that are all matching numbers and that have rich *personal* histories to back up their collectibility.

Final price and collectibility have to do with condition and rarity, the better the shape the higher the price, also supply and demand............speaking of history, unfortunately anything engraved with the WW2 German Nazi-era military markings seems to be bringing the big bucks at the moment.
(I myself DON'T collect WW2 era Grey IIIC K's, the 43' I own has a 9th Armored Division/Black Star Agency-Life Magazine connection, that's why I own it, don't prefer the German Military stuff, if I find something it's SOLD right away to finance more 1945 issued US Army gear.)

Jaans, in replacing the vulcanite and painting, it can be very expensive, just getting the correct vulcaite from a postwar donor camera and painting it properly is a real chore itself
(I have two 45 cameras I need to restore this way, I just don't have the $500+ now to invest in getting them both right now) ~ with them BOTH done the value of them will go up by $500 to $800 more than what it was to begin with, it's just very few people even know or bother restoring these cameras correctly and many that have been touched up were done by un-professional people and that work shows.....

The best advice I give to the new owner of #391017 K will be to inject glue under the vulcanite that's left and put it in a half case, with a fresh restored vulcanite and the amount of body paint left with the worked patina WON'T MATCH and the camera would LOOK restored, in my personal opinion you only restore cameras vulcanite if the paint is in 85% or better condition.

Tom
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Old 12-16-2010   #50
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Many cameras were separated from their original lenses because they were either lost of destroyed in wartime (pre 1945 cameras) , but on the most part they were parted because of GREED, most dealers NEVER sell a camera with it's original issued lens together, they always part them out to get that extra $300 out of a deal.......pathetic in my opinion, but that's life in the camera business. ~ sacrifice history for money, happens all the time, I'm very lucky to have (three) IIIC K Grey's that are all matching numbers and that have rich *personal* histories to back up their collectibility.

Final price and collectibility have to do with condition and rarity, the better the shape the higher the price, also supply and demand............speaking of history, unfortunately anything engraved with the WW2 German Nazi-era military markings seems to be bringing the big bucks at the moment.
(I myself DON'T collect WW2 era Grey IIIC K's, the 43' I own has a 9th Armored Division/Black Star Agency-Life Magazine connection, that's why I own it, don't prefer the German Military stuff, if I find something it's SOLD right away to finance more 1945 issued US Army gear.)

Jaans, in replacing the vulcanite and painting, it can be very expensive, just getting the correct vulcaite from a postwar donor camera and painting it properly is a real chore itself
(I have two 45 cameras I need to restore this way, I just don't have the $500+ now to invest in getting them both right now) ~ with them BOTH done the value of them will go up by $500 to $800 more than what it was to begin with, it's just very few people even know or bother restoring these cameras correctly and many that have been touched up were done by un-professional people and that work shows.....

The best advice I give to the new owner of #391017 K will be to inject glue under the vulcanite that's left and put it in a half case, with a fresh restored vulcanite and the amount of body paint left with the worked patina WON'T MATCH and the camera would LOOK restored, in my personal opinion you only restore cameras vulcanite if the paint is in 85% or better condition.

Tom
Thanks Tom for that sage advice. The more I think about the logistics of restoring a camera of that vintage, the more difficult and convoluted the logistics. And like you said, trying to find a donor body etc could turn into an expensive excercise. Also, it sounds like a highly technical process with fewer and fewer people able to manage the resoration.

So, following your advice, it would make sense to either use the glue and half-case, or alternatively hope my paypacket increases and I can purchase a very good condition K in the future.

I guess it is no surprise that the military marked cameras seem to predominate from Europe - their country of origin, as opposed to the IIIC-K cameras that were issued for the US forces. Those cameras with military markings do seem to fetch almost ridiculous prices and are probably best left in the hands of collectors.

I may place a bid on this current K camera on ebay, just depending on how much the bids go to in the final few hours. Hopefully it doesn't hit $1000 as some have suggested.

thanks again.
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Old 12-17-2010   #51
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[quote=LeicaTom;1492640]
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John,

When can you do a chip test for me? ~ I would like to see how close they got your paint.......

Tom
Tom,

Sorry for the delayed reply - I'm not getting all my updates from the forum.

I would have said over the holiday, but the temperature over here has gone down to about -6 deg C, so definitely not the right conditions for spraying cellulose!

Once the weather improves is the best answer I can give at the moment, sorry. I will be interested to see what you think of the colour too
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Old 12-18-2010   #52
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With that camera, I would just inject some glue under the remaining vulcanite and keep it permanently in a "long nose" case or a sturdy "half case" ~ I wouldn't bother replacing the vulcanite with a correct shell and repaint, the damage/patina is already in the paint this cameras condition is already "user" grade it will never be better condition......it is the perfect user, get it CLA'd and it's ready to take up where the last owner left off.
(I would restore/replace vulcanite only on cameras that are 85% paint or better grade)

If it goes over $1,000 US Dollars that's the sign of a desperate public

Tom
Why would you bother getting this one which is already at $460 AUD as a user when the normal IIIc in far better "user" condition can be had for less?

I don't see the logic?

This one clearly needs a CLA, and it will never look "pretty" unless you take off the original vulcanite and get it recovered, at which point it won't be original.

Any way you look at it, I think this particular camera will just end up an expensive collectors item.

If you want to buy one for "using", the normal IIIc will take just as good photos??
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Old 12-19-2010   #53
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Because it is a IIIc-K! That's why


Besides, I already use a 'Stepper' IIIc.
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Old 12-19-2010   #54
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Because it is a IIIc-K! That's why


Besides, I already use a 'Stepper' IIIc.
But in terms of the shutter, it is unlikely that you would get any advantage out of this camera over a normal IIIc?

Wouldn't a $150 "bargain" IIIc + CLA be a better choice for someone wanting to use it as a camera?

Surely the only people bidding for it are people who want to collect K's ?
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Old 12-19-2010   #55
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I agree that a $150/$200 "Sharkskin" era bad chrome IIIC would make a more "practical" working camera...........BUT, some of us have used "K" shuttered cameras on a regular basis in everyday photography and have never looked back.

I have 3 cameras that are true museum quality pieces and they only get "cycled" now and then, but two my IIIC K's are STILL being used full-time loaded with film and shot under almost all conditions.

The "K" shuttered cameras are like Frank Sinatra singing Cole Porter's "Night & Day" - butter smooth film transport, much more quiet than the normal IIIC shutters and the overall compact feeling you get with all the other LTM cameras is still there too...........and if it freezes like the North Pole the camera will STILL work

I have own one of Leica's ultimate conversions - a de-millitarized IIIC K that's been de-painted and chromed at the factory and "Sharkskin" added, the camera is a dream to work with, the only other LTM cameras that get close to the feeing l and performance of these cameras are the late 1956 IIIG shuttered Leica IIIFRDST's and the IIIG itself and they too feel different, if anything they are bulkier......(the IIIG)

Really it's all a matter of taste, I do what I do with Leica IIIC K's concerning the HISTORY and preserving rare examples of the US Army cameras in a story of Leica history that is about almost forgotten.

Tom

PS: That camera currently at aution is honestly a prime canidate for a "user" it's collectible status is still there, but it will NEVER be outside of "user" grade again, so why doesn't someone just carry on and use the hell outta it, like the last owner did
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Old 12-20-2010   #56
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But in terms of the shutter, it is unlikely that you would get any advantage out of this camera over a normal IIIc?

Wouldn't a $150 "bargain" IIIc + CLA be a better choice for someone wanting to use it as a camera?

Surely the only people bidding for it are people who want to collect K's ?
Interesting question. I think Tom who owns these rare cameras has explained their case well.

I guess this train of thought can extend to rare black paint M2/M3/M4's - they all take pictures in the same manner as the standard chrome Ms, but there is another level of desirability about owning one - due to the aesthetics of the paint and potential brassing. Perhaps ownership also infers status to the user - they are part of a more exclusive 'club' (I use this term loosely) than those who use just a regular silver chrome M.

Some cameras like the K that were limited in production appeal to collectors but they also seem to garner interest from regular shooters. This could also be attributed to the high interest in manufactured items that were made especially for the rigours of war. Their has been much evidence that they were made to stand more extreme conditions than regular IIICs. However, the chances that the regular user in a real world situation will find himself needing these more durable parts will always be open for debate and comes back to your original point.

A more expensive example could be with the original MP with the double stroke and the recent MP with a single stroke. Collectors will always pay more for the original version because they were manufatured in limited numbers. One could argue that the current MP is faster to advance the shutter (open for debate) and perhaps works just as well as a reconditioned original (open for debate), but it isn't matching the price of the original and probably never will.

Anyway, a good discussion!
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Old 12-20-2010   #57
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I can understand the DS and SS being a significant advantage (speed of shutter advance) but the thing I would worry about is not being able to easily find someone to work on this particular shutter (given it is rarer then the normal one).

I see Tom has had success with Youxin and his K shutters in the past so maybe the CLA is a no brainer.

But then I still come back to the $450AUD it is currently going for (plus potentially another $200 on top of that for CLA, plus whatever the auction ends up going for).

Potentially $1000 for what would otherwise be done quite well by $300

On top of that, I just don't think I would shoot as confidently with a camera that is otherwise a collectors item. I would want to leave it at home where it is safe!
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Old 12-20-2010   #58
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I can understand the DS and SS being a significant advantage (speed of shutter advance) but the thing I would worry about is not being able to easily find someone to work on this particular shutter (given it is rarer then the normal one).

I see Tom has had success with Youxin and his K shutters in the past so maybe the CLA is a no brainer.

But then I still come back to the $450AUD it is currently going for (plus potentially another $200 on top of that for CLA, plus whatever the auction ends up going for).

Potentially $1000 for what would otherwise be done quite well by $300

On top of that, I just don't think I would shoot as confidently with a camera that is otherwise a collectors item. I would want to leave it at home where it is safe!
I think that camera is a real good "starter" camera for someone who want to work with a piece of history, the CLA is no problem and using a camera with an old "K" shutter curtain is not a big deal, you just keep the curtain out of direct sun just like any other LTM camera.

That camera would work well for someone who's doing a WW2 COMBAT PHOTOGRAPHER impression - though in real life very very few IIIC K Grey's were used by USASC Photographers BEFORE May 7th 1945, after that it was a different story.......and paying $1,000 to get this camera including CLA is at about limit price, if it does go over $1,000 US just in the auction well, then it's for sure going to a China Cabinet camera collector and it will spend the rest of it's days collecting dust.

I hope someone from here gets up the nerve and the cash$$$$ and wins this thing and uses it.....I'd have thown $800 at it by now, but I'm working on getting myself something else special for Christmas this year

Tom
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Old 12-20-2010   #59
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Yep, it would've been for handy for my post-VE-Day 165th SPC photographer impression. I've just bought a Colt M1911A1 to add to my US Photographer/Tanker/MP re-enactment impressions....If I had known about this auction before hand though, I would've gone for the camera instead.

Oh well, maybe another 'user' will pop up in the near future


kpas, regarding leaving expensive kit home where it is safe. people go out with their 5 grand plus digital SLRs. If the camera had been collector's grade that might be a little different (like a red curtain 'stepper' IIIc that's in my display cabinet), but I'm not afraid to carry or use a user-grade camera like this one.
Heck, my Willys MB gets to do 1500 miles a year too.
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Old 12-20-2010   #60
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I think that camera is a real good "starter" camera for someone who want to work with a piece of history, the CLA is no problem and using a camera with an old "K" shutter curtain is not a big deal, you just keep the curtain out of direct sun just like any other LTM camera.

That camera would work well for someone who's doing a WW2 COMBAT PHOTOGRAPHER impression - though in real life very very few IIIC K Grey's were used by USASC Photographers BEFORE May 7th 1945, after that it was a different story.......and paying $1,000 to get this camera including CLA is at about limit price, if it does go over $1,000 US just in the auction well, then it's for sure going to a China Cabinet camera collector and it will spend the rest of it's days collecting dust.

I hope someone from here gets up the nerve and the cash$$$$ and wins this thing and uses it.....I'd have thown $800 at it by now, but I'm working on getting myself something else special for Christmas this year

Tom
I just lost my nerve. That camera is rapidly moving out of my 'user' budget - it has just pipped $960 with some hours to go. Perhaps the collector element has muscled in on the auction?
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Old 12-20-2010   #61
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I hate to say... but I told you so.

5+ hours to go and it spurted to almost 1K already. And because of that, we will probably see this camera's price to double at auctions end, mark my words.

We will ofcourse never know, but I'm thinking this will be shipped to HongKong and find it's way to a new-money, wealthy collector in China.
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Old 12-20-2010   #62
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...and its gone for 2,20x.xx. I wonder if any RFF'er won it.
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Old 12-20-2010   #63
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...and its gone for 2,20x.xx. I wonder if any RFF'er won it.
I doubt it..........that's WAAAAAYYYY OVERPRICED for it's condition, but sadly this is the way the cookie crumbles

I never expected it to go over $2k let alone over $1.5k these cameras have finally proven their value, anything even close to mint now and having any known Military history will be costing well over $5k, it's a shame that most of these cameras will remain outside the reach of real photographers.

The only way one can afford one is to find it OFF of the internet, keep a camera away from the net and evilbay you have a good deal....

Tom
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Old 12-20-2010   #64
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Over 2K?! Geez! Couldn't have afforded that even if I wanted too.
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Old 12-20-2010   #65
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The saddest part about all this is there is absolutely no way it will ever be taking another photo. It won't get the CLA it needed and it will just sit in someone's cupboard for the next 25 years.
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Old 12-21-2010   #66
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With prices like this on the internet it will be increasingly difficult to find one offline. One needs to be connected to veterans or their families, I suppose. I'll 'make-do' with that restored IIIc Stepper I'll be getting shortly.
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Old 12-21-2010   #67
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At least it makes my restoration feel more worthwhile
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Old 12-21-2010   #68
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At least it makes my restoration feel more worthwhile
Yes, getting anything together thats "survived" to work with and shoot photos with is an accomplishment, John I can't wait till yours is done.

I'm really surprised at that camera and what it did......I have seen far RARER cameras sell for less on ebay, I suppose it was just who saw it and all the attention it got being the only one at auction on there now......

Tom
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Old 12-21-2010   #69
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With prices like this on the internet it will be increasingly difficult to find one offline. One needs to be connected to veterans or their families, I suppose. I'll 'make-do' with that restored IIIc Stepper I'll be getting shortly.
How's that camera coming along at Youxin's Johan?

I have the "Sharkskin" IIIC K back and it's transport is butter smooth, I haven't shot anyone with it yet, but hopefully soon I'll be able to get a photoshoot going and I will post some results.

Tom
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Old 12-21-2010   #70
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How's that camera coming along at Youxin's Johan?

I have the "Sharkskin" IIIC K back and it's transport is butter smooth, I haven't shot anyone with it yet, but hopefully soon I'll be able to get a photoshoot going and I will post some results.

Tom
Tom,

It's in the mail, it left the States and I think it's in NL customs now. I'm hoping they step on it, hoping for an ETA before X-mas. I'm living next to the mail box, crackers at hand

Youxin mailed me it got real nice and I reckon that when a man like him says so, it'll be REALLY nice

The 1943 Sonnars are jumping up and down with excitement too! The correct lyre-shaped VIOOH also is ready to roll.

I'll post about it as soon as it checks in. Hope to take it out for a spin over the holidays!
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gray iiic k
Old 12-21-2010   #71
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gray iiic k

for the auction to go to $2200 there had to be two bidders willing to go to that figure .
military cameras always go higher than standard issue ones .
in this case the seller listed the delivery as us army , early 1945 post surrender .
so in spite of the well used state ( most wartime military cameras show quite a bit of wear ) they were an item of field equiptment , not a future collectable , or the holy grail of photography .
well i have overstated here , so put in my 4 cents . and quiet now .
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Old 12-21-2010   #72
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Al, you're breaking our toy!



Ah well, there'll be others to drool and speculate over, and that's part of the fun, right?
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Old 12-21-2010   #73
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Don't worry! I'll make sure there's a few more.......now where's my bucket of RLM 75 paint and a large camelhair brush?

LOL!!!!!

Tom
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Old 12-21-2010   #74
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I don't know, it tickles me in a way to see other people spend that kind of money on rare subtypes. I've got my little IIIf red dial with a very nice Summitar and I do the majority of my shooting with it. It set me back a couple of hundred dollars total. These two extremes for the same basic thing are always fun to contemplate.

If I found something like the recent battered K at the proverbial garage sale, I wouldn't have a clue what it was. If I could afford it, I'd probably buy it and shoot it in blissful ignorance.

Thank you for the illuminating thread, folks!
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Old 12-21-2010   #75
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I find I have a connection with the IIIC K that was sold on ebay: The seller was also offering an Elmar 50/2.8 (LTM), which I bought. And he tells me that he used it with the IIIC K. Does that make my lens more valuable?
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Old 12-21-2010   #76
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I find I have a connection with the IIIC K that was sold on ebay: The seller was also offering an Elmar 50/2.8 (LTM), which I bought. And he tells me that he used it with the IIIC K. Does that make my lens more valuable?
LOL!!!!!!!!

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Old 12-22-2010   #77
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I'm quite surprised at the way things look now....I've been following these cameras for over 20 years , but have just seriously started collecting them/working with them in the past 3 years.

Prices have been stable, it's just in the past 8 months that prices have all but tripled on most of these, even the WW2 Nazi German engraved cameras were somewhat affordable between collectors, now prices are sort of "out of control" due to the fact that there's really not many of these being found/offered in the open market like they once were anymore.........

I think that prices are going to stay high now, despite there only being a handful of serious collectors for these things, most dealers and sellers now are wise to what they are worth and finding them in old Army foot lockers and estates for $250 or less is all but a thing of the past.
(JFTR - I've myself have never bought a Grey Paint K camera for less than $1,700, so they have never been a so-called bargain for me.)
*Someone has to remind me to tell of the story about the folks from a German private estate who almost THREW OUT! a 1944 W.H. engraved IIIC K and Matching Numbers/Engraved lens*

The Generation most involved with these cameras as they were new is dwindling away fast.....most of the amazing finds have already been found and the only way anything of importance comes about anymore is with the passing away of some of the ORIGINAL Leica Collectors -
*a select group of people saw the light and imagined the potential financial investment toward the end of the 1950's and started scooping up deals and also buying new and keeping it un-used*
(that's the one reason why there's so many mint boxed Leica IIIG's out there and also mint surviving Black paint MP's and M3's).

The days of finding deals on the WW2 era Leica equipment are almost over, mind you there's still something out there.......but, the NEXT Leica collectors phase will be after TOP NOTCH late 1950's to mid 1960's stuff, in the next 10 years alot of choice collectible Late Leica LTM (IIIG) and Leica M stuff will see the lime-light ~ Stay Tuned!

Keep Searchin' There's Gold out there Someplace.......!

Tom
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Last edited by LeicaTom : 12-22-2010 at 20:29.
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Old 12-30-2010   #78
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Don't worry! I'll make sure there's a few more.......now where's my bucket of RLM 75 paint and a large camelhair brush?

LOL!!!!!

Tom
Tom - I just got back from seeing the inlaws and it was good in a roundabout way as I could forget about the recent price that rat chewed wasted looking pardon my pun) gray IIIc-K went for on ebay. I remember at the start of the auction that you would be surprised if it went over $1000 - that was also my limit of a proposed bid. However, I was shocked to see it go over $2000!

So my questions are in multiples (only if you have time) as I am still curious about the market for these cameras. Why did you think that camera would only get half of its final value? What factors in the market have changed over the last few months for these cameras? Also, are the chrome K's cheaper and easier to procure than the gray K's? The reason that I also ask is you mentioned a paint type above. Do you think that some chrome K's may be 'doctored' with paint to increase their value? Is that what you were impling you would do, or were you joking?

jaans
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Old 12-30-2010   #79
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*a select group of people saw the light and imagined the potential financial investment toward the end of the 1950's and started scooping up deals and also buying new and keeping it un-used*
(that's the one reason why there's so many mint boxed Leica IIIG's out there and also mint surviving Black paint MP's and M3's).
However, it's another question whether this was any investment worth speaking of. A near mint Leica IIIg body, in box, no lens, nowadays sells for 900 to 1000 USD (see e.g. 250740249833 on eBay). According to the consumer price index, this corresponds to a price of $127.40 in 1957.

I'm pretty sure the IIIg cost more than $127 new. Not much of a financial investment here, it doesn't even cover inflation. And that's one of Leica's rarer, more desirable models.

In other words, cameras as an investment strategy may make sense in the short run, betting on price hikes and the like; but in the long run, it seems to have been a bit like the lottery. A few people lucked out - you mention black M3s and so on - but for most, even for other cameras considered collectibles today, it appears to have been a losing proposition.
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Old 12-30-2010   #80
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However, it's another question whether this was any investment worth speaking of. A near mint Leica IIIg body, in box, no lens, nowadays sells for 900 to 1000 USD (see e.g. 250740249833 on eBay). According to the consumer price index, this corresponds to a price of $127.40 in 1957.

I'm pretty sure the IIIg cost more than $127 new. Not much of a financial investment here, it doesn't even cover inflation. And that's one of Leica's rarer, more desirable models.

In other words, cameras as an investment strategy may make sense in the short run, betting on price hikes and the like; but in the long run, it seems to have been a bit like the lottery. A few people lucked out - you mention black M3s and so on - but for most, even for other cameras considered collectibles today, it appears to have been a losing proposition.
I disagree, the market goes back and forth due to the economy, but I'm pretty sure that the mint boxed matching numbers IIIG /Leicavit/ Elmar f2.8/50 combo with Leicavit case I sold in 1992 in Germany for $4,500 was a sound investment, the market now outside of these IIIC K Grey's is looking dull for many vintage Leica products, but this is not the first slump in collectible camera sales, it will all snap back as soon as the economy starts to pick up again worldwide......

Well, let's get the ball rolling here with some fresh photos, let's see some Grey K shutter cameras from some OTHER RFF members!!!!!

Tom
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Last edited by LeicaTom : 12-30-2010 at 21:38.
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