Is there such a thing as a fast, sharp, flare-resistant *and* smooth-bokeh lens?

hoot · 10-15-2005

OK, here's a real challenge.

Find me a set of two lenses: 50mm and 35mm.

Both must be in LTM (leica thread/screw mount a.k.a. M39). They must share the same filter size AND the same lens shade. The lens shade must be of the twist-on or snap-on type; not one that screws into the filter thread. Both lenses must have aperture click-stops (as opposed to the Jupiter-8, for instance).

Each lens must be faster than f/2. They must be sharp (hi-res) by today's standards, and extremely flare-resistant when shooting a backlit scene. They must have enough aperture blades to yield pleasant bokeh.

Even with all the equipment I will be selling to fund these lenses, price is still a significant consideration. As a general guideline, $300 per lens would be painful, but possible. A battered lens barrel is not a problem, so long as the optics and mechanics are flawless.

If anyone manages to squeeze any serious recommendations into these tight guidelines, I'll be quite impressed. Thanks in advance, eh?

Toby · 10-15-2005

My personal opinion - these are both standard lenses why not spend $600 on a really kickass lens than $600 on two slightly inferior lenses -IMHO one really good lens will give you far more pleasure than two less good ones. I've never used one but maybe the 40/1.5 nokton would fit the bill?

JoeFriday · 10-15-2005

The new Zeiss lenses are supposed to be spectacular, very flare resistant and sharper than any sane person needs

not faster than f2, however.. and definitely not under $300 a lens

Toby · 10-15-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeFriday

The new Zeiss lenses are supposed to be spectacular, very flare resistant and sharper than any sane person needs

not faster than f2, however.. and definitely not under $300 a lens

There aren't many sane people on this forum

Brian Sweeney · 10-15-2005

The "bokeh" on the 40mm F2 Summicron is probably smoother than the 40mm F1.4 Nokton. I used the Summicron with some strong backlit subjects, and it did a good job. I would place it as a candidate.

hoot · 10-15-2005

Toby, that's good advice. I wonder how guesstimating a 40mm FOV would work with my M3's 50mm framelines... anyone got experience?

taffer · 10-15-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoot

The lens shade must be of the twist-on or snap-on type; not one that screws into the filter thread.

Hey, I had some candidates but the sentence above turned them out.

Time to go back to the requirement analysis board ?

hoot · 10-15-2005

Brian - thanks. I want to get back to the low-light photography I used to do back when I used SLR (Nikon 50mm f/1.4 shot wide open). Is the bokeh on the Nokton f/1.4 noticably bad, or just less fantastic than the 'cron's?

Brian Sweeney · 10-15-2005

I Googled this:

http://www.pbase.com/juergenkook/bok_voigt_leica

I do not have the Nokton, I have considered getting one. The Bokeh is "Harsh", as it is in my Nikkor 5cm F1.4's. If I want smooth out of focus for cluttered backgrounds, I'd grab the 8.5cm f2 anyway.

The Nikkor 5cm F1,4:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot...kor5_swnga.jpg

the Nikkor 8.5cm F2:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot...04/C7NIK85.JPG

5cm F2 Type I Rigid Summicron:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot...mmicron50a.jpg

I'll have to hook up my scanning computer for the 40mm Summi shots.

Toby · 10-15-2005

As per the m3's frame lines - my pentax 67 gives about 80 - 85% of the total image with a standard prism and with experience I've learned to guessimate extremely accurately. The thing to do is simple. Just practice with the lens and your visualisation will adjust to estimating correctly - the main thing is to limit yourself lenswise for a while if you buy a 40 use it almost exclusively for a month or so then it will be second nature

JoeFriday · 10-15-2005

I've been told to use the entire M3 viewfinder as 40mm field of view.. probably shouldn't have your main image too tight to the edge, tho

hoot · 10-15-2005

OK, I think I'm going to go with Toby's advice and narrow it down to a single 40mm lens instead of the other two lengths.

This pretty much narrows it down to the Nokton f/1.4 and the Rokkor (aka Summicron) f/2.

An Internet search seems to show an unequivocal disparagement for the Nokton's bokeh. On the other hand, I really could use that one extra full stop.

Decisions, decisions...

JoeFriday · 10-15-2005

both are nice.. but there is a noticeable difference in the bokeh.. choose wisely

Toby · 10-15-2005

Trawl around the gallery. I've seen some images with the nokton that are really excellent. I think this bokeh thing is just so much hot air. If the image is strong enough no one gives a toss about small nuances in the bokeh. Remeber there are lots of people who know a lot about cameras and lenses but not so many who know about pictures.

hoot · 10-15-2005

Well, I put a WTB on the Nokton. Thanks, guys.

rover · 10-15-2005

Raising a closed fist to his mouth to buffer a cough,

Kahh(rokkor)hough

taffer · 10-15-2005

I own a 40/2 Summicron and agree that is a truly fantastic lens. That said, if I had the money, I'd probably grab a(nother) 40/2 CLE Rokkor for improved coatings (and for pure GAS, what else) PLUS a Nokton 40/1.4 SC or MC just out of curiosity.

And even if it is an f/2 lens, with moderately fast film and a low amount of daily caffeine, f/2 is fast enough

http://www.pbase.com/taffer/image/50461459.jpg

aizan · 10-15-2005

i'd look for the m-rokkor for the cle, just because it's called the "water lens". with a name like that, it's gotta be especially nice.

hoot · 10-15-2005

The problem with the Rokkor/Summicron is that I'd immediately get GAS for a Leica CL to go with it. OTOH, I could always sell my M3 to finance a CL...

Somebody shoot me!

taffer · 10-15-2005

BANG !

Beware of the CL, it's addictive.

Fred · 10-15-2005

An interesting question, first thoughts were for an older summicron but a bayonet or push on hood with an LTM mount throws that out. For the money the CV lenses either the 1.7 35 Ultron or the 50 comes to mind, both with reasonable Bokeh, better than the 40 but they are more prone to flare than the Leicas.

The question is looking for the ideal and frankly for the money available I think the CV 35 and 50 lenses would do it the best, modern optics with decent multi coatings for sensible prices.

rover · 10-15-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred

An interesting question, first thoughts were for an older summicron but a bayonet or push on hood with an LTM mount throws that out.

A series VI hood with 42mm push on adaptor will fit older Summicrons. I use on on mine.

Justin Viiret · 10-15-2005

I think hoot's guidelines are a little tight: how many 35mm lenses faster than f/2 are out there? And then, how many of that list are LTM?

That said, if you're willing to compromise and accept M-mount, I add my voice to those praising the Nokton 40/1.4. It's small, fast and absolutely flare-resistant -- I don't have the hood, as it's been on backorder here in Oz for ages -- and I've never managed to get it to flare significantly, ever.

My guess would be that you won't find a 50 and a 35 that share the same hood, but are both faster than f2. Except for the speed requirement, the 50/2 summicron and the 35/3.5 summaron share the same hood, filter size, etc...

DaveSee · 10-15-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoot

Well, I put a WTB on the Nokton. Thanks, guys.

Wait... what happened to the LTM spec?

I have the 40 Nokton and really like it... don't know if I've any pics with this lens posted... but it's small, fast and sharp. Cannot say whether the Rokkor is better at USD 350 because I haven't used one. As for the FOV/FL: when I shoot this lens--and why I would--it's for those times one wants a "tight 35." OOF/SOFA/Bokeh is good, but best after 2.8.

Framing with your Leica M works fine, with time.

rgds,
Dave

EDIT: added a couple 40 Nokton pics, both at 5.6 and all I have to upload atm. And yes, many CV lenses are LTM, but a few are M-mount. Oh, and both of these shot with a Bessa-T, not my Leica M.

Fred · 10-15-2005

Rover, thanks I stand corrected, I was not aware that the series VI hood with 42mm push on adaptor would work. Looks like another item for my shopping list.

Thanks again for the info.