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Old 09-28-2010   #26
LeicaTom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john neal View Post
Johan,

Tom is really your expert on these things, I only know a very small amount about this. The early IIIb and IIIc production had (I think) the same pattern as the IIIa, this changed in 1942/43 (?) to a slightly "looser" pattern that was then common until late in the war years. I'm unsure whether there was then a different run from 1944/45 to the end of the IIIc, but before the post-war sharkskin.

I'm sure Tom will correct me here - Tom?

I have a chrome 1945 IIIc K (non-stamped) that has the correct period pattern in new vulcanite courtesy of CRR. Peter has reformulated the covering to use a non-rubber resin and has the ability to apply the correct pattern when he applies it. I don't know the full details, but it is worked into a thin sheet and then applied to the shell at about 150 deg C - the pattern applied by pressing down hard with a hot iron and a silicon "master".

When it comes back, it's a little soft, but hardens over a couple of months and looks just like the original. Smells a little different though, probably due to not having rubber in the compound. Peter has obviously done a lot of research into this, as he can also re-vulcanise a tired curtain to give it a few more years of useful life (maybe 10+ ?).

I'll try to get some shots of the new covering posted later in the week.

My marked K is from 3 days before D-Day, and grey, so the plan is to get Peter to recover it and then respray with the RLM 75 - I had a batch made up a while ago (genuine cellulose lacquer). Peter will spray if you want, but I wanted to do that myself. the chrome one should probably have grey vulcanite too - the original was believed to be grey - hence trying the grey kid skin to see what it looked like, but there is not enough depth in the pattern for my liking. maybe that one will get sprayed too, we'll see......

Hope that helps
Yep!

What you said John is how is was........the pre Oct 1942 pattern is IMPOSSIBLE to reproduce or replace, unless you have a donor camera.

I have never seen the CRR vulcanite up close, so I can't tell anything about that quality......

I restore my cameras with donor vulcanite shells, (I only have two cameras I have to do that to anyway) one has to have a RLM Grey treatment (John you have to have a sample shot onto some broken vulcanite so I can see the finished hue and see if it matches the original) ~ One of my Grey's must have a replacement shell (DAG did the one that's on it now, and it looks ok from 10 feet, but up close it's not good enough) ~ the Chrome IIIC K I have also needs a Grey shell, but these too were a differnet color Grey than the Grey painted cameras.......

Tom
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grey paint comparison original wartime
Old 09-28-2010   #27
enasniearth
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grey paint comparison original wartime

i had read that there were two grey paint types used on the wartime IIIc cameras.
was able to compare these two original paint samples , here are some photographs .
on the left a chrome wartime IIIc with the grey paint vulcanite shell , this is the color refered to rm 75 violet grey .
on the right is a late grey paint wartime IIIc , the paint is closer to blue grey , darker in tone and flatter finish , not glossy as earlier type .
both are original paint .
the background is a faded army green t shirt that happened to be in the truck , so background color is not neutral .
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File Type: jpg IMG_0759.jpg (54.9 KB, 45 views)
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Old 09-28-2010   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enasniearth View Post
i had read that there were two grey paint types used on the wartime IIIc cameras.
was able to compare these two original paint samples , here are some photographs .
on the left a chrome wartime IIIc with the grey paint vulcanite shell , this is the color refered to rm 75 violet grey .
on the right is a late grey paint wartime IIIc , the paint is closer to blue grey , darker in tone and flatter finish , not glossy as earlier type .
both are original paint .
the background is a faded army green t shirt that happened to be in the truck , so background color is not neutral .
Very nicely done Al,

The IIIC K Grey is one of the HARDEST cameras in the world to photography due to the hue of the Grey's being different in every shot.

The website that had the best color charts and information on the RLM history of paints seems to have been removed from the net, I had perfectly matched my 1943 camera at that time to RLM 75 ~ but the model airplane color charts have that color way too light for what I had originally had matched the camera too.

So far that I have seen in person (with my cameras) is that the 1943 (May) and the 1945 (August) are the SAME color tone, which is RLM Grey #75 or as Al has said Violet Grey ~ so pretty much the Grey cameras and their vulcanite shells were painted this color, which does look/turn a slight bluish grey in certain lighting......

Now for the Grey painted vulcanite chrome cameras, there's still alot to be learned, clearly Al has a camera here with LIGHTER looking vulcanite, I have a camera with DARKER looking vulcanite, it may have to do with paint mixes or how the paint holds up over the years, while the camera I have the Grey painted vulcanite is also a flatter finish.

John, once your project starts back up I would be interested in possiblly getting the shell for my August 1945 #39059x K done ~ I will HAVE a reproduction "K" Shutter stamp made soon, prehaps we can exchange services?

Tom
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Last edited by LeicaTom : 09-28-2010 at 21:42.
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Old 09-29-2010   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeicaTom View Post
John, once your project starts back up I would be interested in possiblly getting the shell for my August 1945 #39059x K done ~ I will HAVE a reproduction "K" Shutter stamp made soon, prehaps we can exchange services?

Tom
Tom, I will get around to spraying a sample of vulcanite and let you have a look, but it may be a few weeks. I have finally landed a paying job with a good firm, and need to get established in that before I think about my toys

I will need to get it done before February, as I'm starting a degree course and I think that will probably fill a lot of my non-work hours. The K is back together as far as a working shutter. I next need to look at the RF (I have a new beam splitter to fit), then it's a rebuild and test followed (probably) by new vulcanite by CRR and a coat of paint.

I'm still trying to decide whether to repaint the top plate - it is badly brassed, and using cellulose would allow me to strip it back very easily should I need to. The bottom plate is more of a trial - I only have a chrome one (original missing) that needs to be reverse chromed and painted. I managed to screw up the first try at that - too much caustic in the bath, and too high a current left me with a plate that has deckle edges

If my colour works out OK, I'd be happy to trade services, let's see how it works out.
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Old 10-02-2010   #30
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Well, this one just sold on evilbay for a hair under $3K......



http://cgi.ebay.com/U-S-FORCES-1945-...item19bfcaefea

A camera far from perfect, (it was originally sold from Texas on evilbay about 3 months ago) it had excessive paint wear/patina (the camera was at best 75/80% paint not 90% as the seller stated) and it had that ugly Flash Sync.

Tom
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Last edited by LeicaTom : 01-24-2011 at 00:22.
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Old 10-03-2010   #31
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If I recall correctly, Robert recently sold a IIIc-K Gray that was once updated to a Red Dial IIIf for close to ten grand after an eBay bid war. Camera went to China, the land of new collectors with different standards. I guess a lot of the cameras in time will go there, the Chinese have always had an interest for quality German products and there is a lot of interest and money there recently.
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Old 10-06-2010   #32
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Tom,

Here's a couple of pics of the CRR vulcanite now on my non-stamp K.

What do you think?
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File Type: jpg vulcb.jpg (83.1 KB, 31 views)
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Old 10-07-2010   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john neal View Post
Tom,

Here's a couple of pics of the CRR vulcanite now on my non-stamp K.

What do you think?
Looks pretty good....haven't compared it to the real thing yet, I'm lucky I need only two shells restored and painted and I have them already off of "donor" cameras, I still have to perfect the shutter "K" stamp and I will restamp those two cameras once they are finished........

Tomorrow I should be getting back in the mail "The Major's Camera" (a US Army Signal Corps Leica IIIC K Grey from very late May 1945) as I RETRADED my "Wetzlar" M6 & /series 5/f2/50 Cron for it, it will get a roll of film in it right away, as soon as I can get a pretty gal over for portraits.

I'll take some new shots of the camera as soon as I can and post here, it will be good to have another full-time Grey IIIC K as a "user" again, I've been missing toting around the Grey paint ever since I traded 469 K for my M8

Tom
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Old 12-10-2010   #34
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Quote:
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Well, this one just sold on evilbay for a hair under $3K......



http://cgi.ebay.com/U-S-FORCES-1945-...item19bfcaefea

A camera far from perfect, (it was originally sold from Texas on evilbay about 3 months ago) it had excessive paint wear/patina (the camera was at best 75/80% paint not 90% as the seller stated) and it had that ugly Flash Sync, but it's a sign that the prices for these cameras in clean original to near mint condition are worth even higher prices than $3,000 ~ makes me happy!!!!!!

Tom
Tom,

I have been following these threads on the K since their inception. So, I wonder if there were any K's sold at that recent auction that sold the MP2? Or were the buyers more interested in M cameras?

It seems that it is becoming increasingly difficult to find Leica IIIcK cameras that have the magical K on the shutter. There are a number of K IIIc's on the internet but without the K on the shutter.

I guess a K shutter can make a large difference in the outcome of the final price?

The price for that Leica MP2 is truely astounding. I wonder where the other 5 are?

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Jaans
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Old 12-12-2010   #35
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Tom,

I have been following these threads on the K since their inception. So, I wonder if there were any K's sold at that recent auction that sold the MP2? Or were the buyers more interested in M cameras?

It seems that it is becoming increasingly difficult to find Leica IIIcK cameras that have the magical K on the shutter. There are a number of K IIIc's on the internet but without the K on the shutter.

I guess a K shutter can make a large difference in the outcome of the final price?

The price for that Leica MP2 is truely astounding. I wonder where the other 5 are?

Cheers,
Jaans
Yes Jaans, I think the're were 3 Grey IIIC K's at that auction ~ Westlicht normally has at least 1 or 2 K shuttered cameras always for sale, the K shuttered Grey painted cameras are even move coveted in Europe as they are here in the USA.

One Luftwaffen camera did like $15,000

A WH camera did like $17,000

and a normal civilian camera did $4,200

There was also a postwar modifed camera that had a replacement body shell and parts that sold for $1,900

So the Grey cameras have gone up very well in price in the past 12 months, maybe some of the few cameras among collectors that have really MADE money during this bad recession, I know my cameras have all but doubled almost tripled in value in the past 3 years.

The examples being offered recently too on the evilbay have been poor condition cameras, many with missing parts or vulcanite and without original lenses.

The original lenses make a great difference in a cameras final price, a camera is worth at least $600 to $800 more if the lens on it is orignal and if the "K" is on the shutter $500 to $1,000 more.

Tom
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Old 12-12-2010   #36
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Tom,

Here's a couple of pics of the CRR vulcanite now on my non-stamp K.

What do you think?
Not bad looking at all John..........I still need two shells refinished still for a US Army IIICK Grey paint and a IIIC K chrome body Grey vulcanite.

Tom
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Old 12-13-2010   #37
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Yes Jaans, I think the're were 3 Grey IIIC K's at that auction ~ Westlicht normally has at least 1 or 2 K shuttered cameras always for sale, the K shuttered Grey painted cameras are even move coveted in Europe as they are here in the USA.

One Luftwaffen camera did like $15,000

A WH camera did like $17,000

and a normal civilian camera did $4,200

There was also a postwar modifed camera that had a replacement body shell and parts that sold for $1,900

So the Grey cameras have gone up very well in price in the past 12 months, maybe some of the few cameras among collectors that have really MADE money during this bad recession, I know my cameras have all but doubled almost tripled in value in the past 3 years.

The examples being offered recently too on the evilbay have been poor condition cameras, many with missing parts or vulcanite and without original lenses.

The original lenses make a great difference in a cameras final price, a camera is worth at least $600 to $800 more if the lens on it is orignal and if the "K" is on the shutter $500 to $1,000 more.

Tom
Thanks Tom for that information. I guess those auctions at Westlicht can put a moderate conditioned iiic-K camera out of reach of people such as myself. I think that Westlicht also garners a lot of publicity, so potentially they have a lot of buyer interest.

It sounds like your sitting on a small goldmine with your collection. With the prices of K's and other military cameras rising even after the much publicised Global financial crisis, it makes you wonder what their prices will achieve if in a few years the economies of the world make a moderate recovery!

Looks like for now I will have to resign my search to local op shops and e-bay for a K camera when motivation strikes me.

I wonder what the chances are of one turning up in one of these shops? You always here stories of members finding Leicas in such places!

Cheers,
Jaans
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Old 12-15-2010   #38
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Thanks Tom for that information. I guess those auctions at Westlicht can put a moderate conditioned iiic-K camera out of reach of people such as myself. I think that Westlicht also garners a lot of publicity, so potentially they have a lot of buyer interest.

It sounds like your sitting on a small goldmine with your collection. With the prices of K's and other military cameras rising even after the much publicised Global financial crisis, it makes you wonder what their prices will achieve if in a few years the economies of the world make a moderate recovery!

Looks like for now I will have to resign my search to local op shops and e-bay for a K camera when motivation strikes me.

I wonder what the chances are of one turning up in one of these shops? You always here stories of members finding Leicas in such places!

Cheers,
Jaans
Well, with these the IIIC K Grey Painted cameras 80% of them are in the USA, or at least found their way here since the end of WW2 and now most have been scooped up by collectors, the best cameras came from WW2 veterans estates, which are now all but gone and since sold, very very few cameras make it intact to camera shops or dealers anymore.

I've been researching/collecting these cameras hardcore for about three years now and there's been a great change in the market and also the availability of good ORIGINAL matching numbers lens/body cameras, the past year has seen very few fine cameras offered and prices almost tripling despite the bad economy, the Grey "K" shutter cameras have been one of the few photographic collectibles that have actually increased in price and value instead of decreasing........and I don't see a downward trend, with less and less cameras around in the open market I see prices ever climbing skyward.

Tom
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Old 12-15-2010   #39
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That was an interesting point Tom about 80% of the IIIc-K Grey Painted cameras being in the USA. Like you said, it does seem that a lot of veterans ended up with these cameras.

I remember reading a funny anecdote a few years ago (maybe here) that the majority of collectable Leicas now reside in Japan! It seems the Japanese or even Asian collectors have taken a less shine to perhaphs the LTM Leicas than the M-mount Leicas? Would you agree with that?

And like you said, Grey IIIC-K cameras are only getting more expensive. That K shutter is really a memorable insignia!

I will continue my quest on ebay and secondhand shops!

Cheers,
Jaans
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HU: 1945 Leica IIIC K Grey (auction online)
Old 12-15-2010   #40
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HU: 1945 Leica IIIC K Grey (auction online)

Giving a heads up to anyone who might be interested in a "real" IIIC K Grey here on evilbay......



http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-IIIc-K-gre...item1c17d61459

This camera really got used hard in the past two years (it sold originally like 2 years ago or so from a dealer on evilbay) and was in much better shape then as it is now, as I recall it had most of it's vulcanite then and less wear, this camera now looks like it was used during the Normandy landings (just kidding!)

It is an original 1945 issued camera, issued the same day as one of mine was, sadly the original Elmar lens is gone ~ I would be going after this one myself, but getting my M6 project camera is MORE IMPORTANT to me now and I can't afford both...........

I'm sad to see the camera's in such bad shape, after how nice it was 2 years ago (I used my one camera for some daily work and I always took extra care when using it) ~ though honestly this camera now has a great patina and would make the ULTIMATE "user" IIIC K Grey, these cameras in this condition are hard to find in this grade and I suppose that the price will stay down??? Who knows???
(a broken early 1960's Black Paint M3 sold the other day for over $4k, so there's no telling, even beat up and broken RARE cameras bring some $$$$).

I have no connection whatsoever to the seller, I post this only as a favor to anyone here who might be in the market for a camera that I can see personally is a original 1945 US Army issued camera.

Tom
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Old 12-15-2010   #41
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I saw this one too yesterday. I'm currently watching to see what the bidders do, though I doubt it will stay affordable for me (already invested most of my disposable income in a new toy that goes on my firearms permit this month ) .

Would you replace the vulcanite or keep it original? I think I'd replace it if I was going to use it frequently.
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Old 12-16-2010   #42
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ooh - at that price, it would be cheaper than finishing my project K - bet it goes over AUS$1,000 though.
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Old 12-16-2010   #43
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With that camera, I would just inject some glue under the remaining vulcanite and keep it permanently in a "long nose" case or a sturdy "half case" ~ I wouldn't bother replacing the vulcanite with a correct shell and repaint, the damage/patina is already in the paint this cameras condition is already "user" grade it will never be better condition......it is the perfect user, get it CLA'd and it's ready to take up where the last owner left off.
(I would restore/replace vulcanite only on cameras that are 85% paint or better grade)

If it goes over $1,000 US Dollars that's the sign of a desperate public

Tom
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Old 12-16-2010   #44
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John,

That CCR Luton vulcanite you have on yours, would it be possible to spray paint that to the correct colour (with some of the paint you obtained, where did that come from again?)

That camera will be too rich for my blood, no matter what. Haven't got a dime of disposable income now and for some time to come, but yet I was wondering...

Pretty sure this IIIc-K will go past USD 1,000 because those desperate buyers are on eBay for sure. Somebody will have it serviced, re-covered and find a wartime Elmar for it, to subsequently show it off (and hopefully shoot it)
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Old 12-16-2010   #45
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[quote=buzzardkid;1492421]John,

That CCR Luton vulcanite you have on yours, would it be possible to spray paint that to the correct colour (with some of the paint you obtained, where did that come from again?)
quote]

Johan,

I could spray it - in fact the original covering on that camera was grey (as far as I can determine). I may try that on this one, as a trial for the K when that's finished,

The paint came from HMG in Manchester - they made it up specially for me. It's nitrocellulose base, so spraying should be OK. I thought about using a stoving enamel, but they thought it would fill the engravings too much.
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Old 12-16-2010   #46
LeicaTom
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[quote=john neal;1492553]
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzardkid View Post
John,

That CCR Luton vulcanite you have on yours, would it be possible to spray paint that to the correct colour (with some of the paint you obtained, where did that come from again?)
quote]

Johan,

I could spray it - in fact the original covering on that camera was grey (as far as I can determine). I may try that on this one, as a trial for the K when that's finished,

The paint came from HMG in Manchester - they made it up specially for me. It's nitrocellulose base, so spraying should be OK. I thought about using a stoving enamel, but they thought it would fill the engravings too much.
John,

When can you do a chip test for me? ~ I would like to see how close they got your paint.......

The Grey painted IIIC K's had the RLM paint and the postwar chrome cameras had a real dark grey (discolored) looking vulcanite a different shade than the Black, Grey over spraypainted stuff.

May/June 1945 was an impossible time for supplies at the factory and I'm surprised that the factory could even make vulcanite and chrome a few hundred cameras!

Tom
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WW 2 Leica Historian and Rare Military Leica Camera and Lens Consultant Services (for Civilian and Military Engraved Leica IIIC "Stepper" and IIIC K models made between 1940 to 1946)

I'm a Retro PinUp Photographer using vintage M39/LTM Leica/ CZJ Sonnar/ Nippon Kogaku and Canon lenses with a Leica M8 Digital
I'm also a Vintage Volkswagen Collector, Driver and Enthusiast ~ I own a 1957 "Oval Window" Beetle named "Blauchen" (oV!Vo) Beep!

http://www.modelmayhem.com/118

Last edited by LeicaTom : 12-16-2010 at 09:55.
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Old 12-16-2010   #47
Jaans
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Originally Posted by LeicaTom View Post
Giving a heads up to anyone who might be interested in a "real" IIIC K Grey here on evilbay......



http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-IIIc-K-gre...item1c17d61459

This camera really got used hard in the past two years (it sold originally like 2 years ago or so from a dealer on evilbay) and was in much better shape then as it is now, as I recall it had most of it's vulcanite then and less wear, this camera now looks like it was used during the Normandy landings (just kidding!)

It is an original 1945 issued camera, issued the same day as one of mine was, sadly the original Elmar lens is gone ~ I would be going after this one myself, but getting my M6 project camera is MORE IMPORTANT to me now and I can't afford both...........

I'm sad to see the camera's in such bad shape, after how nice it was 2 years ago (I used my one camera for some daily work and I always took extra care when using it) ~ though honestly this camera now has a great patina and would make the ULTIMATE "user" IIIC K Grey, these cameras in this condition are hard to find in this grade and I suppose that the price will stay down??? Who knows???
(a broken early 1960's Black Paint M3 sold the other day for over $4k, so there's no telling, even beat up and broken RARE cameras bring some $$$$).

I have no connection whatsoever to the seller, I post this only as a favor to anyone here who might be in the market for a camera that I can see personally is a original 1945 US Army issued camera.

Tom
Tom,

I was wondering if you knew why some of these IIIc-K's were separated from their original Elmar lens and some maintained their 'relationship/pairing' with their original lens?

I had another look at Westlichts auction past results. What I noticed at Westlicht was that the grey K cameras with the K on the shutter sold close to those grey cameras that had their shutter replaced but came with the original lens.

Meaning the K shutter is just as highly prized in monetary termas as is the original lens. Is that what you have found with your research with these cameras?

Also, those K cameras with military markings like Luftwaffen, Heer etc are even more expensive!

I too have been monitoring that camera on my watch list that you posted above on ebay. It is a shame that the vulcanite is missing at the front, but I guess if it was intact then it would no doubt be worth a lot more money, even though it doesn't have the original lens? (Hence more in the collector bracket in finance terms). Also, in terms of numbers, how many K cameras were issued on the same day as this camera and yours?

Thanks again for your insight,
Jaans
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Old 12-16-2010   #48
Jaans
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Originally Posted by Mr_Flibble View Post
I saw this one too yesterday. I'm currently watching to see what the bidders do, though I doubt it will stay affordable for me (already invested most of my disposable income in a new toy that goes on my firearms permit this month ) .

Would you replace the vulcanite or keep it original? I think I'd replace it if I was going to use it frequently.
Mr Fibble,

It seems that a few of us are watching this camera on rangefinder forum^^

I have also been wondering what I would do if I won this camera? Would it be best to leave it in its original state or would replacing the vulcanite be the best option. Tom's idea of using a half-case and glue sounds like a practical solution, as the integrity of the camera remains intact!

But, if anyone has done this, I'm wondering if it would be more expensive to replace the vulcanite, or would doing that decrease the value of the camera in the long run?

If anyone has information about this, then I would enjoy reading about your experiences as it does remain a potential project of mine.

Cheers
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Old 12-16-2010   #49
LeicaTom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaans View Post
Tom,

I was wondering if you knew why some of these IIIc-K's were separated from their original Elmar lens and some maintained their 'relationship/pairing' with their original lens?

I had another look at Westlichts auction past results. What I noticed at Westlicht was that the grey K cameras with the K on the shutter sold close to those grey cameras that had their shutter replaced but came with the original lens.

Meaning the K shutter is just as highly prized in monetary termas as is the original lens. Is that what you have found with your research with these cameras?

Also, those K cameras with military markings like Luftwaffen, Heer etc are even more expensive!

I too have been monitoring that camera on my watch list that you posted above on ebay. It is a shame that the vulcanite is missing at the front, but I guess if it was intact then it would no doubt be worth a lot more money, even though it doesn't have the original lens? (Hence more in the collector bracket in finance terms). Also, in terms of numbers, how many K cameras were issued on the same day as this camera and yours?

Thanks again for your insight,
Jaans
Many cameras were separated from their original lenses because they were either lost of destroyed in wartime (pre 1945 cameras) , but on the most part they were parted because of GREED, most dealers NEVER sell a camera with it's original issued lens together, they always part them out to get that extra $300 out of a deal.......pathetic in my opinion, but that's life in the camera business. ~ sacrifice history for money, happens all the time, I'm very lucky to have (three) IIIC K Grey's that are all matching numbers and that have rich *personal* histories to back up their collectibility.

Final price and collectibility have to do with condition and rarity, the better the shape the higher the price, also supply and demand............speaking of history, unfortunately anything engraved with the WW2 German Nazi-era military markings seems to be bringing the big bucks at the moment.
(I myself DON'T collect WW2 era Grey IIIC K's, the 43' I own has a 9th Armored Division/Black Star Agency-Life Magazine connection, that's why I own it, don't prefer the German Military stuff, if I find something it's SOLD right away to finance more 1945 issued US Army gear.)

Jaans, in replacing the vulcanite and painting, it can be very expensive, just getting the correct vulcaite from a postwar donor camera and painting it properly is a real chore itself
(I have two 45 cameras I need to restore this way, I just don't have the $500+ now to invest in getting them both right now) ~ with them BOTH done the value of them will go up by $500 to $800 more than what it was to begin with, it's just very few people even know or bother restoring these cameras correctly and many that have been touched up were done by un-professional people and that work shows.....

The best advice I give to the new owner of #391017 K will be to inject glue under the vulcanite that's left and put it in a half case, with a fresh restored vulcanite and the amount of body paint left with the worked patina WON'T MATCH and the camera would LOOK restored, in my personal opinion you only restore cameras vulcanite if the paint is in 85% or better condition.

Tom
__________________
WW 2 Leica Historian and Rare Military Leica Camera and Lens Consultant Services (for Civilian and Military Engraved Leica IIIC "Stepper" and IIIC K models made between 1940 to 1946)

I'm a Retro PinUp Photographer using vintage M39/LTM Leica/ CZJ Sonnar/ Nippon Kogaku and Canon lenses with a Leica M8 Digital
I'm also a Vintage Volkswagen Collector, Driver and Enthusiast ~ I own a 1957 "Oval Window" Beetle named "Blauchen" (oV!Vo) Beep!

http://www.modelmayhem.com/118

Last edited by LeicaTom : 12-16-2010 at 15:56.
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Old 12-16-2010   #50
Jaans
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeicaTom View Post
Many cameras were separated from their original lenses because they were either lost of destroyed in wartime (pre 1945 cameras) , but on the most part they were parted because of GREED, most dealers NEVER sell a camera with it's original issued lens together, they always part them out to get that extra $300 out of a deal.......pathetic in my opinion, but that's life in the camera business. ~ sacrifice history for money, happens all the time, I'm very lucky to have (three) IIIC K Grey's that are all matching numbers and that have rich *personal* histories to back up their collectibility.

Final price and collectibility have to do with condition and rarity, the better the shape the higher the price, also supply and demand............speaking of history, unfortunately anything engraved with the WW2 German Nazi-era military markings seems to be bringing the big bucks at the moment.
(I myself DON'T collect WW2 era Grey IIIC K's, the 43' I own has a 9th Armored Division/Black Star Agency-Life Magazine connection, that's why I own it, don't prefer the German Military stuff, if I find something it's SOLD right away to finance more 1945 issued US Army gear.)

Jaans, in replacing the vulcanite and painting, it can be very expensive, just getting the correct vulcaite from a postwar donor camera and painting it properly is a real chore itself
(I have two 45 cameras I need to restore this way, I just don't have the $500+ now to invest in getting them both right now) ~ with them BOTH done the value of them will go up by $500 to $800 more than what it was to begin with, it's just very few people even know or bother restoring these cameras correctly and many that have been touched up were done by un-professional people and that work shows.....

The best advice I give to the new owner of #391017 K will be to inject glue under the vulcanite that's left and put it in a half case, with a fresh restored vulcanite and the amount of body paint left with the worked patina WON'T MATCH and the camera would LOOK restored, in my personal opinion you only restore cameras vulcanite if the paint is in 85% or better condition.

Tom
Thanks Tom for that sage advice. The more I think about the logistics of restoring a camera of that vintage, the more difficult and convoluted the logistics. And like you said, trying to find a donor body etc could turn into an expensive excercise. Also, it sounds like a highly technical process with fewer and fewer people able to manage the resoration.

So, following your advice, it would make sense to either use the glue and half-case, or alternatively hope my paypacket increases and I can purchase a very good condition K in the future.

I guess it is no surprise that the military marked cameras seem to predominate from Europe - their country of origin, as opposed to the IIIC-K cameras that were issued for the US forces. Those cameras with military markings do seem to fetch almost ridiculous prices and are probably best left in the hands of collectors.

I may place a bid on this current K camera on ebay, just depending on how much the bids go to in the final few hours. Hopefully it doesn't hit $1000 as some have suggested.

thanks again.
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