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Leica IIIC K - share info and questions
Old 04-22-2010   #1
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Leica IIIC K - share info and questions

I was never much into the wartime IIIC K Leicas, until a very informative thread was started here at RFF by Leica Tom. What interested me was the very many IIIC K variations of which I was never aware before.

Leica Tom decided to delete his IIIC K thead, which is fine, but there is still remains some interest in IIIC K's here at RFF.

So please share your IIIC K info, pics, and questions here.

Stephen
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Old 04-22-2010   #2
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Great idea. I'm a stubborn user myself, rather than a collector, but it was always an interesting read, and would fuel pipe dreams about finding one of these on a flea market in Germany

One thing that always bugged me about the old thread was the misspelled title... Please, it's "kältefest" ("kaeltefest" if you don't have special characters), not "kaltenfest."
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iiic k
Old 04-22-2010   #3
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iiic k

well perhaps some new informaton will present itself here .
does anyone have any pictures of the actual ball bearing shutter mechanism ?
i kept going back to the thread thinking someone would post some details on the internal workings that makes a k special .
lots of photos of the outsides , thoughts on originality and price . what was lacking was the detail of construction and assembly .
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Old 04-22-2010   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enasniearth View Post
does anyone have any pictures of the actual ball bearing shutter mechanism ?
i kept going back to the thread thinking someone would post some details on the internal workings that makes a k special .
what was lacking was the detail of construction and assembly .
That's a big part of the book and all the professional x-rays that we have taken in the past few years of research, I never posted photos online of these things while it is mainly one of the driving forces behind making the book, why the camera is what it is and why and all the tech aspects, that's why there never were any internal photos of the cameras posted.

I don't know of anyone tearing down one right now, but Youxin Ye has repaired quite a few of these in the past few years, while he does'nt have photos, he knows about the ball bearings and where they should be...

Tom
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Last edited by LeicaTom : 04-22-2010 at 17:04.
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Leica IIIC/K book
Old 04-23-2010   #5
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Leica IIIC/K book

Leica Tom---
What book?
I must have been asleep when you posted the details.
Thanks!!
Paul
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Old 04-23-2010   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulbe View Post
Leica Tom---
What book?
I must have been asleep when you posted the details.
Thanks!!
Paul
Hello Paul,

Please have a look here at this thread;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...ad.php?t=88948

Write me if you would like to be put on a waiting list for the book

Thanks

Tom
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Old 04-24-2010   #7
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Tom,

Please add me to the list for a copy of the book
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Old 04-26-2010   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabears View Post
Also you have to consider that the First is genuine...the others not!
Yep,

I know the history on all three cameras, the first one is a legend, with Scotty and the great guys at Ritz Collectibles, they have had the camera for over 5 years now, it's a tad bit overpriced ~ at $2,500 it would have sold ages ago ~ it is 100% verified by Jim Lager as original.

The second camera is what's called a "de-milled" camera, was a Grey camera during the war and then sent back to the factory for de-millitarization ~ as a collectible, not as valuabe as a original camera, but still unique, if the original shutter K and bearings are still present?

The third camera is a IIICK just has been repainted, looks like my old May 8th 1945 camera was, done by George Carr (Scotland) perhaps in the late 1960's early 70's, lens is correct era, a bit pricey for a repaint.

IIIC K's sell for nearly DOUBLE in Europe or Asia as they do here in the states.

Tom
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Old 04-27-2010   #9
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This De-milled camera does'nt even have the K stamp on the top plate anymore, (there's no history left on this camera, it was all taken away) ~ many cameras were sent back to the factory postwar to take off all the Nazi emblems and Grey paint. ~ kinda defeats the originality of the camera, sadly folks didn`t care about keeping a lot of Nazi stuff original then, defacing was common, now making the original untouched item, even more valuable.

It's not worthless, those are strong words, but it has lost most of it's collectible value, unless De-milled cameras are your thing, could be a nice shooter for $350

Jim always gives me an opinion on each camera we research some are better than others...

Tom
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I'm a Retro PinUp Photographer using vintage M39/LTM Leica/ CZJ Sonnar/ Nippon Kogaku and Canon lenses with a Leica M8 Digital
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Old 04-27-2010   #10
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George Gordon Carr, God rest his soul, was a wonderful character. I got to know him quite well in the early 70s, when my parents lived a few miles away from Crosslees-by-Johnston, in Greenock. He regarded his 'fake' cameras as a joke -- such as his IIID in Afrika Korps paint. He never sold them as real, just as fun, but (from conversations) I suspect his view was that if someone sold them on, the buyer deserved to be 'had' for not checking the serial number, which was not hard, even in those days.

It was at his house that I first handled a .44 magnum (unlicensed). When I asked him where he'd got it, he replied, "Och, I swapped it for a Schmeisser." That was around the time I found him a Rolls-Royce Merlin engine, cheap... Well, a marinized Griffon, anyway.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 04-27-2010   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
George Gordon Carr, God rest his soul, was a wonderful character. I got to know him quite well in the early 70s, when my parents lived a few miles away from Crosslees-by-Johnston, in Greenock. He regarded his 'fake' cameras as a joke -- such as his IIID in Afrika Korps paint. He never sold them as real, just as fun, but (from conversations) I suspect his view was that if someone sold them on, the buyer deserved to be 'had' for not checking the serial number, which was not hard, even in those days.

It was at his house that I first handled a .44 magnum (unlicensed). When I asked him where he'd got it, he replied, "Och, I swapped it for a Schmeisser." That was around the time I found him a Rolls-Royce Merlin engine, cheap... Well, a marinized Griffon, anyway.

Cheers,

R.
HAHAHAHAHHA!

Yes, I really enjoyed my Carr IIIC K Grey, it was my main film shooter for over a year

Tom

PS: IIID Afrika Korps.....now that's funny ~ maybe I should put together that Eva Braun Gold Plated IIIC K with Green Lizard Skin covering and a Coated Gold Plated Xenon? ~ sounds like fun!
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Old 04-27-2010   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeicaTom View Post
This De-milled camera does'nt even have the K stamp on the top plate anymore, (there's no history left on this camera, it was all taken away) ~ many cameras were sent back to the factory postwar to take off all the Nazi emblems and Grey paint. ~ kinda defeats the originality of the camera, sadly folks didn`t care about keeping a lot of Nazi stuff original then, defacing was common, now making the original untouched item, even more valuable.

It's not worthless, those are strong words, but it has'nt any collectible value, unless De-milled cameras are your thing, could be a nice shooter for $350

Jim always gives me an opinion on each camera we research some are better than others...

Tom
not true. the pic shows the K on the top plate.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Wartime-Leica-II...item3cac068671


why would you think the camera is "de-milled" and where did you get that term? This thread is the ONLY usage that google shows of anyone referencing a "de-milled" Leica IIIc on the internet.

Stephen
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Old 04-27-2010   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeicaTom View Post
HAHAHAHAHHA!

Yes, I really enjoyed my Carr IIIC K Grey, it was my main film shooter for over a year

Tom

PS: IIID Afrika Korps.....now that's funny ~ maybe I should put together that Eva Braun Gold Plated IIIC K with Green Lizard Skin covering and a Coated Gold Plated Xenon? ~ sounds like fun!
Dear Tom,

Nah, the green lizard skin is over the top. Just stick with a discreet, tasteful 'Eva Broun Eigentum' engraving (and of course a Reichsadler on the top) and quiet gold plating. And maybe a diamond embedded in the shutter release. No sense in overdoing it!

As an aside (you are no doubt more knowledgeable than I) are there many or indeed any presentation Leicas to leading Nazis?. As I recall, Rommel's IIIc was 375,000 but you could hardly call him a red-hot Nazi.

Mit freundlich Grueßen.

R.
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Old 04-27-2010   #14
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Quote:
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As I recall, Rommel's IIIc was 375,000 but you could hardly call him a red-hot Nazi.
Why not? He owed his career to his proximity to the Nazi Party, no matter how things finally turned out.
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Old 04-27-2010   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
not true. the pic shows the K on the top plate.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Wartime-Leica-II...item3cac068671


why would you think the camera is "de-milled" and where did you get that term? This thread is the ONLY usage that google shows of anyone referencing a "de-milled" Leica IIIc on the internet.

Stephen
Stephen,

Excuse me, the photos are'nt that great, I missed seeing that K , SORRY ~ but it sounds like you want to argue with me.......there's really no reason to.

I think you should respect the fact that Dr Leo and I have been researching these cameras for over 6 years now, and very few people here or even online , know much about the full historyof these Leica K shutter cameras, (that's ANOTHER reason why my Leica book is being published) ~ and not knowing what a De-milled camera is, I'm not surprised ~ there's no place online, while there's no one interested in cameras that are'nt original or have been greatly modified as this one has been, there was an English website years back that had a few of these cameras listed, and explained that quite a few cameras were sent back to the factory to be stripped down and rechromed, same thing happened to many other WW2 Nazi items, try to find a Waffen SS typewriter that survived being used by the US Army and to come through the DRMO, without the SS keys being snipped away with a wire cutters......

demilitarized : ~ to rid of military characteristics or uses

I don`t think, I KNOW that this camera WAS a GREY PAINT CAMERA, from the original Leica records, I have from the factory, there were NO chrome cameras produced in the #389xxx K series of cameras built by Leitz in 1943.

Stephen, I own an all original matching numbers 1943 camera, and the 1942/43 Leica IIIC K issues are some of the most important cameras in my research, I have all the original 1942 Chrome issue numbers researched (they are no where near the #389xxx K series).

Sadly this camera is only a few numbers away from my camera, and would have been a Grey Paint IIIC K with a Dark Red Shutter curtain K stamp

Here's the REAL thing, for those of you who might have deep pockets......at Leica Shop Wien

https://www.leicashop.com/vintage/iiic-grey-p-60.html







That's a nice base plate......I could use that

Tom
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Old 04-27-2010   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
Dear Tom,

Nah, the green lizard skin is over the top. Just stick with a discreet, tasteful 'Eva Broun Eigentum' engraving (and of course a Reichsadler on the top) and quiet gold plating. And maybe a diamond embedded in the shutter release. No sense in overdoing it!

As an aside (you are no doubt more knowledgeable than I) are there many or indeed any presentation Leicas to leading Nazis?. As I recall, Rommel's IIIc was 375,000 but you could hardly call him a red-hot Nazi.

Mit freundlich Grueßen.

R.
Well, I think that her EB "butterfly" on the left side of the Top Plate would be pretty, no Reichsadler, while Eva didn't really have political interests, she took all that rather naively, I think the Soft/Subdued Gold Plating is about right, and the Xenon too, while she would have wanted the most expensive and fastest lens possible at the time, ~ kill the green lizard skin huh??? ~ well maybe a golden reddish brown Snakeskin leather????? (like a Leica Luxus) but, I DO like the idea of the diamond embedded in the shutter release.......I think I'll look for a good Polish craftsman for this project LOL!!!!!!

Eva so much as history has remembered was a "Rollei" gal, Hofmann kept her rolling in 120 film LOL!!!!!!!!

Rommel had a few Leica's, he was an avid Photographer, the factory issued some cameras to promi German doctors and professors during the war, but Nazi big shots, I'm not aware of, Heindrich Hofmann had a bunch of cameras, the most famous survivor was a IIIB with a MOOLY motor that a Munich collector owned a few years back............I saw the camera at a special display in Frankfurt back in 1994.

Tom
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Last edited by LeicaTom : 04-27-2010 at 20:26.
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Old 04-28-2010   #17
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Dear Tom,

Is it merely my faulty memory, or is there some variation in the shades of grey of Luftwaffen Leicas? I've only ever owned one, but I've handled others. I don't think I've paid much attention in the last 25 years though.

Also in the realms of possibly faulty memory -- 30+ years in this case -- I seem to recall the late Colin Glanfield remarking on a IIIf coversion from a grey IIIc. Sure, not all grey IIIc are K, but it's close enough to ask the question. Any thoughts on this?

There's a good story behind my IIIc. I was in R.G. Lewis in the very early 1980s and a man was trying to sell them an old Leica. The assistant was saying, "Nah, can't do anyfink until the boss gets back from lunch." The would-be seller was saying, "But I have a train at two o'clock."

I asked the assistant if he would mind if I made an offer for the camera. He was delighted, as it made his job much easier. The seller suggested £100: camera, feldgrau case, matching and engraved Elmar lens, the lot. I agreed perhaps too readily. He then said, "You've got to buy the other Leica at the same price." I was hesitant but it was a IIIf RD DA with a Xenon... I frogmarched the seller to the bank.

Last of all, an aside: George Gordon Carr used to bake his painted cameras in his mother's kitchen oven. He was still living with his mother in the early 70s. After she died, he married, but my parents had moved away by then.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 04-28-2010   #18
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Why not? He owed his career to his proximity to the Nazi Party, no matter how things finally turned out.
I guess the way things finally turned out was why Roger pointed out that he was hardly red-hot...
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Old 04-28-2010   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
Dear Tom,

Is it merely my faulty memory, or is there some variation in the shades of grey of Luftwaffen Leicas? I've only ever owned one, but I've handled others. I don't think I've paid much attention in the last 25 years though.

Also in the realms of possibly faulty memory -- 30+ years in this case -- I seem to recall the late Colin Glanfield remarking on a IIIf coversion from a grey IIIc. Sure, not all grey IIIc are K, but it's close enough to ask the question. Any thoughts on this?

There's a good story behind my IIIc. I was in R.G. Lewis in the very early 1980s and a man was trying to sell them an old Leica. The assistant was saying, "Nah, can't do anyfink until the boss gets back from lunch." The would-be seller was saying, "But I have a train at two o'clock."

I asked the assistant if he would mind if I made an offer for the camera. He was delighted, as it made his job much easier. The seller suggested £100: camera, feldgrau case, matching and engraved Elmar lens, the lot. I agreed perhaps too readily. He then said, "You've got to buy the other Leica at the same price." I was hesitant but it was a IIIf RD DA with a Xenon... I frogmarched the seller to the bank.

Last of all, an aside: George Gordon Carr used to bake his painted cameras in his mother's kitchen oven. He was still living with his mother in the early 70s. After she died, he married, but my parents had moved away by then.

Cheers,

R.
Yes, there's IIIC "normal bearing" cameras in Luftwaffe Grey paint also, built in 1942. ~ I've sold a few of these cameras from WW2 "BRINGBACK" estates.

Tom
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Old 04-28-2010   #20
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no proof, but if you note the factory had some problems with chrome contamanation around cameras #470xxx into the #500xxx series cameras (sharkskin) era, and it's really really hard to find a IIIC of that era that's got mint chrome., without peeling, flaking, spotting etc.

If you look really close at the chrome under the shutter speed dial it looks very poor, could be that it was a aftermarket job....

This is a camera that I'm so surprised has gotten so much attention, that camera for sale at the Leica Shop is a very nice one, wonder why no one's remarked on that one?

Tom
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WW 2 Leica Historian and Rare Military Leica Camera and Lens Consultant Services (for Civilian and Military Engraved Leica IIIC "Stepper" and IIIC K models made between 1940 to 1946)

I'm a Retro PinUp Photographer using vintage M39/LTM Leica/ CZJ Sonnar/ Nippon Kogaku and Canon lenses with a Leica M8 Digital
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http://www.modelmayhem.com/118

Last edited by LeicaTom : 04-28-2010 at 10:51.
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About Ball Bearings
Old 05-03-2010   #21
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About Ball Bearings

I recall from the now-defunct IIIcK thread (I think we can call this one "the IIICK Thread in Exile") that some Leicas had one kind of ball bearings, and later ones had "half race" bearings. I understood "half race" to mean that the balls were not fully encased, but instead were visible on one side of the bearing. (Point #1: is that right?)

Next, I was having this discussion via email with my IIIc technician, John, who says that the actual difference is that in the first application of ball bearings to the IIIc, the cameras had ball bearings on the top and bottom of a shaft (I think he said main shaft); and also on the top and bottom of two tension rollers.

John said that in the later design, he sees the ball bearings only at the top of the one shaft, while all the other points have bushings. My comments about "half-race" meaning that the bearings were not fully enclosed, did not make sense to him.

Am I having a false memory, here?

Another thing: in my notes, I have two slightly different ranges for "half race" cameras: 391800 to 397600; and also 392800 to 397607. Does anyone know which range is correct?

Thanks!

Rob
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Old 06-09-2010   #22
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What about the paint jobs on the grey IIIcK's? In the demised thread we had come to a conclusion as to what paint was used and what stuff was used on the fillings of the engravings. Anybody who can recall?
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Old 06-10-2010   #23
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What about the paint jobs on the grey IIIcK's? In the demised thread we had come to a conclusion as to what paint was used and what stuff was used on the fillings of the engravings. Anybody who can recall?
Johan,

I just posted something about this at this thread......

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...threadid=91172

The paint was Luftwaffe aircraft paint RLM 75 and the engravings were filled with white paint, which after a few years turns a creamy eggshell type color.

Tom
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Last edited by LeicaTom : 08-25-2010 at 06:33.
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Recovering a wartime IIIc in vulcanite
Old 09-28-2010   #24
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Recovering a wartime IIIc in vulcanite

John,

in another thread I read in a post of yours that it is possible to re-cover a wartime IIIc in vulcanite with the original 1944 pattern, and it might even be possible to have the right coat or RLM paint on it.

Can you share some details on that? I might be interested to have a chrome 1943 IIIc re-covered with vulcanite.


Also, I wasn't aware that the wartime vulcanite had a different pattern from the 'regular' vulcanite.

Anyone that can show me photos of the 'normal', the 'wartime' and the 'restored wartime' vulcanites? I'd like to compare them so I can decide if my plan is worth the trouble...
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Old 09-28-2010   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzardkid View Post
John,

in another thread I read in a post of yours that it is possible to re-cover a wartime IIIc in vulcanite with the original 1944 pattern, and it might even be possible to have the right coat or RLM paint on it.

Can you share some details on that? I might be interested to have a chrome 1943 IIIc re-covered with vulcanite.


Also, I wasn't aware that the wartime vulcanite had a different pattern from the 'regular' vulcanite.

Anyone that can show me photos of the 'norma', the 'wartime' and the 'restored wartime' vulcanites? I'd like to compare them so I can decide if my plan is worth the trouble...
Johan,

Tom is really your expert on these things, I only know a very small amount about this. The early IIIb and IIIc production had (I think) the same pattern as the IIIa, this changed in 1942/43 (?) to a slightly "looser" pattern that was then common until late in the war years. I'm unsure whether there was then a different run from 1944/45 to the end of the IIIc, but before the post-war sharkskin.

I'm sure Tom will correct me here - Tom?

I have a chrome 1945 IIIc K (non-stamped) that has the correct period pattern in new vulcanite courtesy of CRR. Peter has reformulated the covering to use a non-rubber resin and has the ability to apply the correct pattern when he applies it. I don't know the full details, but it is worked into a thin sheet and then applied to the shell at about 150 deg C - the pattern applied by pressing down hard with a hot iron and a silicon "master".

When it comes back, it's a little soft, but hardens over a couple of months and looks just like the original. Smells a little different though, probably due to not having rubber in the compound. Peter has obviously done a lot of research into this, as he can also re-vulcanise a tired curtain to give it a few more years of useful life (maybe 10+ ?).

I'll try to get some shots of the new covering posted later in the week.

My marked K is from 3 days before D-Day, and grey, so the plan is to get Peter to recover it and then respray with the RLM 75 - I had a batch made up a while ago (genuine cellulose lacquer). Peter will spray if you want, but I wanted to do that myself. the chrome one should probably have grey vulcanite too - the original was believed to be grey - hence trying the grey kid skin to see what it looked like, but there is not enough depth in the pattern for my liking. maybe that one will get sprayed too, we'll see......

Hope that helps
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