A continuation of observation on some photos - Page 3

TPPhotog · 10-03-2005

You have my sympathies

Sorry folks for digressing ......back to on topic

Goodyear · 10-03-2005

Late to this after a busy weekend away from the keyboard...

First, this is Jorge's site and he can do whatever he likes.

However, I would have to respectfully disagree with him if he continued to disallow these photos (all the ones neils posted as being deleted) from the gallery.

As some have alreqady observed, I don't see how it's possible to make an image without bias. We each always bring our own views with us in everything we do.

Whether or not I sympathise with the protesters, I found the series interesting and informative (as I found ManGo's from London).

If context is to be a deciding factor, then surely the series provides the context? If these images were meant to be read in isolation, they would be presented in isolation.

StuartR · 10-03-2005

Well, you said to answer honestly, so here is my take. I find it a little shocking and disappointing that there was even consideration that the photos should not be shown. Photographers of all people should be sensitive to the topic of censorship. It seems to me that these were very clearly journalistic/documentary style photographs, but even if they were explicitly political photographs, what would be wrong with that? Again, journalistic photography is about showing what is going on in the world, whether you agree with it or not. Would we be having this conversation if one of our members documented a anti-Israeli rally in Gaza, abortion protestors in front of a Planned Parenthood, a Neo-Nazi rally in Moscow or Muslim rebels in Xinjiang? These are all very touchy issues, but that is all the more reason to photograph them, learn about them and deal with them from an informed position. It's life, and if you don't agree with something it doesn't mean you should hide it away and put on your blinders.

Obviously this is Jorge's house, so if he does not want to show them, that is his call, but I think it has not been set out anywhere that political or otherwise difficult images should not be posted. I would imagine that anyone old enough to post on this forum is old enough to be confronted with opposing viewpoints and deal with them appropriately. If that is to just not look at the photos, fine, but to take something down because someone doesn't like to see their country or public leader is criticized seems misguided to me.

taffer · 10-03-2005

Well, after crossing thru a solar eclipse I get here and find all happens while Im sleeping...

Images per se never started a fire, afaik, there was always an ignition process. Of course if you remove 'problematic' photos, you can be getting rid of the wood, but as long as the lighter is still there, a potential fire may always start. I think we're all mature and civil enough to keep this place as it is, the best RF site on the net by far.

After all, that's OUR obligation and the least we can do to let Jorge know how much we appreciate the opportunity he gave us to enjoy such a superb community.

mac_wt · 10-03-2005

These are good pictures. They don't seem manipulated or photoshopped to me, so they just depict what bystanders could have seen at the moment it happened.
Everybody can add his/her own (political) story/opinion to these pics. For some they will show rightfull protest, people excercising their freedom of speech, democracy in action. For others they will show naivity/stupidity or unpatriotic attitude. The political content is in the mind of the viewer, not in the photos.
There are some beautifull landscapes in the gallery. Are they a political statement pro or contra environmentalism?

Wim

MacDaddy · 10-03-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlw

Wow, now you're going to have people curious about what kind of incindiery stuff I wrote! How about if I just tone it down a little, like this?

Although I consider myself an unabashedly flag-waving, pro-military, anti-insurgency American, and I strongly disagree with the views being expressed by the people in the pictures, there's nothing about the pictures themselves that I find offensive. They're just pictures of people holding signs. If somebody wants to put them in his or her personal gallery, I don't see anything wrong with it. Leave 'em be, that's my vote.

As Jim is, I'm a patriotic son of America, but that comes with the understanding that the freedom of dissent is what makes this country great! While I DO personally find some of the photos personally offensive, I support Neil's right to post them WITH THIS PROVISO..that SOME sort of commentary or "fair warning" should have accompanied them. I WOULD like to hear more from Neil about his intent—photojournalism, or personal political statement? Perhaps some clarification would douse the flames of passion we've all exhibited in the last 24 hours a bit. I personally also agree with Jorge that personal political views and commentary should be kept to a minimum on this forum. Otherwise, I'd be forced to start posting gallery shots of our soldiers and their families doing COUNTER protests to the ones Neil documented. Just my 2 cents!

Roman · 10-03-2005

OK, guys that's it; just opened up a thread and found yet another act of clearly biased, one-sided censorship; some of the deleted photos (no, not of the 4 posted above, but of the 11 Neil mentioned) were among the best (and I#M thinking of best in photographic terms) in his documentation.
I'm outta here; some of you have my e-mail if they want to stay in contact, I'll go over to the gallery now and delete my pics, and then terminate my membership (if that is possible).

Roman

TPPhotog · 10-03-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacDaddy

...... While I DO personally find some of the photos personally offensive, I support Neil's right to post them WITH THIS PROVISO..that SOME sort of commentary or "fair warning" should have accompanied them. I WOULD like to hear more from Neil about his intent—photojournalism, or personal political statement? Perhaps some clarification would douse the flames of passion we've all exhibited in the last 24 hours a bit.......

He owes you NO explanation what so ever as to his politics or beliefs. If he was to do that then everything he posted could and would be judged by some as political statements.

Roman don't let those that want to take over and censor everything that they don't agree with drive you out. You have many friends here with the same open mindedness as yourself.

Roman · 10-03-2005

I'm sorry Tony, but this is not the first time this has happened here, and the censorship here is ALWAYS biased into one direction - there are quite a few pics in the gallery that I (and many fellow non-Americans) find just as disgusting (like all the 'stars'n'stripes' in peoples' frontyards) that have not been removed, whereas any hint of criticism against 'W' is immediately censored, that's too much for me.
I already deleted a few albums in my gallery, I still have some up because I don't have any copies of those scans on my current computer, and want to transfer them over to my Flickr site, which I will do this evening (I'm already late for work, I will have to run in a minute).
You may catch me over at photo.net in the Classic Camera, Leica and Darkroom forums, and I'll have to check out what Flickr has to offer forum-wise, but I#M outta here once I've transferred my pics.

Roman

TPPhotog · 10-03-2005

Roman I see where you are coming from and why. There's no way I want to miss your views or pictures so I'll see you over on the Flickr (already bookmarked). Your going to be very missed here by many people. Have a good shift, I'm on a late myself soon!

Hektor · 10-03-2005

I think something important has emerged here.

Much of the debate has been whether these pictures should be posted or not, - this is a side issue.

THE REAL ISSUE IS WHETHER RFF SHOULD EMPLOY CENSORSHIP OR NOT, AND SHOULD IT BE ON A DEMOCRATIC BASIS ?.

I say it should, Jorge is a responsible person and it's "his" site until he says it isn't.
If I were him I would be guided by my peers (especially RFF members).

I say censorship is appropriate on RFF, I'm happy that Jorge excercises it, and there should be a thread for members to record their assent, dissent, complaint or congratulations , for Jorge and the rest of us to read if we wish.

Jorge, you have my full support. Carry on - your'e doing a great job.

Regards to all, John C. Birmingham UK.

Hektor · 10-03-2005

p.s. I think Joe is doing a good job too and deserves our appreciation.

Nick R. · 10-03-2005

They looked like photojournalism to me. If photos like these are pulled does that mean that our level of discourse shall never rise above the infantile?

If we're going to mature as a site and have our photos judged with some level of scholarship then we have to get past being offended by shots like these.

FrankS · 10-03-2005

I sent Roman a PM but it looks as though he has made up his mind.

So what do you say, Jorge? Can the photos remain in Neils gallery with maybe a disclaimer? I really don't want to leave. This site is the best thing since.... the M6.

Toby · 10-03-2005

I think this has got out of hand. From what I read in the first post the general worry was that the site would become over run with political images and or political argument or general rancour. As far as I am concerned an upload from one day's shooting is not cause for concern. As I said earlier, if Jorge is worried about any individual's agenda he should keep an eye on him - but these pictures are light years from that kind of situation ,at the moment the cure is 10 times worse than the disease because as far as I can see there is no problem I'm all for nipping things in the bud but this could end up being ridiculous

dmr · 10-03-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by varjag

Jorge, with all due respect, you overreact. This forum has been the greatest photography site I had an opportunity to hang out until this point: don't ruin it.

I agree. This is another clear case of "It ain't broke, don't fix it."

SolaresLarrave · 10-03-2005

Jorge, you're doing fine... Just let things run their course and don't fret too much. We're adults, we can behave. By making a visible disclaimer you'll be relieved from any interpretive responsibility about the photos in the gallery.

varjag · 10-03-2005

It is indeed Jorge's site and he is the master here. However it doesn't invalidate the concerns of those opposing the censorship.

This site is called rangefinderforum, and attracts the corresponding membership, who, to be fair, also greatly contribute to making this site interesting and a worthy place to visit. Nothing in the name suggests a political bias, and sorry, by censoring out certain photographic content you do make a transition from being neutral to politically biased. If being apolitical is the real aim, write it straight in the forum rules, in bold typeface, that all protest or political documentary submissions are not accepted (like all the photography sites already do in the place where I live).

I am sad to see Roman go, but my initial impulse was along the same line. What stopped me is that I still hope that the situation can be handled gracefully and Jorge's decision can be influenced by the members (otherwise we wouldn't have this poll running).

oftheherd · 10-03-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roman

I'm sorry Tony, but this is not the first time this has happened here, and the censorship here is ALWAYS biased into one direction - there are quite a few pics in the gallery that I (and many fellow non-Americans) find just as disgusting (like all the 'stars'n'stripes' in peoples' frontyards) that have not been removed, whereas any hint of criticism against 'W' is immediately censored, that's too much for me.
I already deleted a few albums in my gallery, I still have some up because I don't have any copies of those scans on my current computer, and want to transfer them over to my Flickr site, which I will do this evening (I'm already late for work, I will have to run in a minute).
You may catch me over at photo.net in the Classic Camera, Leica and Darkroom forums, and I'll have to check out what Flickr has to offer forum-wise, but I#M outta here once I've transferred my pics.

Roman

Goodby and God bless you Rolman. I always look forward to your posts. They are always interesting to me due to the experience you have and your articulation of your answers. Sure sorry to see you go though, especially in light of the fact that Jorge is asking for opinions, which implies he is willing to make a change in the way the forum is run, at least as far as "censorship" is concerned. I would have thought perhaps you would wait to see if he changed to a mode more acceptable to you. He is obviously open to it.

I am surprised I missed what started this even though I popped into the forum several times over the Friday and the weekend. I am not sure I want to give an opinion, but I will. Politics in the RFF? Well, on the one hand it is going to happen in some photos, intended or not. (And by the way, I haven't see an explanation by the photographer on that, which he isn't particularly obligated to do.) Photos of political statements are in one sense political statements. They can be for or against the photographed statement.

Are political statements appropriate for the RFF? That that is indeed a difficult question! Even if a photographer tries to be honestly journalistic, it will raise the hackles of many, who disagree with the statement that is photographed. There is an old saw about not discussing politics or religion. There is a reason for that old saw. Politics and religion often bring emotional responses more than logic. There is little of logic or science to either topic for most people.

Well, I guess my take is that politics is of marginal value in the RFF. Still, photographs are, and if they depict political events some times, that may be something we can tolerate, especially if the photographs are offered more as photographs than as statements. If someone posted photographs with blatant political commentary and asked for critique of their abilites as a photographer, even as to the photographs political impact, I might feel adult enough to answer on that basis. If I told that person that I felt he went to far, I would hope I could say it was because he accomplished his goal, and that part of my response was admittedly personally emotional or political. If not, shame on me, but understand it is a sensitive issue. If the photographer cannot accept my commentary, shame on him, but as I said, it is a sensitive issue. As I said, politics are of marginal value in the RFF imho.

Now, if I may be permitted, I think that raises another issue for people to contemplate, but perhaps not comment on here. I don't remember seeing too much of a political nature in photographs pertaining to politics of Europe, Africa, Latin America, or Asia. Of course, as I have mentioned before, I don't look that much at the galleries. My loss no doubt. If it is there, this point is invalid. What I am getting at is why feel so bad when we in the USA talk about ourselves, and comment on our politics, pro or con, and debate whether or not politics are appropriate in the RFF, or worse, make decisions about that, and leave the rest of the world untouched? Well, as I said, I think politics are of marginal value in the RFF at any rate. I don't intend this to bate anybody, nor to take this further, just thought I would throw it out for people to think about. Jorge or mods, feel free to delete my whole post or this paragraph if you feel it appropriate to do so.

Roman, again, sorry to see you go, especially over this. Well, politics just don't seem to be appropriate to the RFF. Now all that needs to be decided is what is politics. Good luck to the decision makers.

rover · 10-03-2005

Journalistic (and I am not reading all these post before stating my feeling).

There are no images that could be taken at an event like this that could not be interpreted as biased. That in no way means that the event and opinions and passion of the demonstrators should not be shown or considered, personally or publicly.

VinceC · 10-03-2005

"Let truth be the prejudice" W. Eugene Smith

I'm also late to this but also believe the photographs are not offensive. In fact, having not attended any anti-war rallies, I found them rather informative.

The fact that these photos strike such a chord with the prowar, pro-president people shows their value.

In my youth, when I was an American soldier stationed in Germany, I sometimes spent my weekends photographing anti-American rallies in Bremen and Bremerhaven. This was the early 1980s, when nuclear missiles were a big issue in Europe. I don't think my images of the protesters were biased one way or another. The bias was in choosing to photograph the rallies. And I had to be particularly careful, because I had the sense that some in the crowd might have worried I was a Military Intelligence operative in their midst instead of someone trying to teach himself photojournalism.

Some years later, about 1990, I was living in Germany and making my living as a reporter and photojournalist. I attended a pro-Nazi rally in the newly accessible eastern Germany. At one point I was deeply immersed in a very unruly crowd. Some very tough looking leather-clad characters were threatening a well-dressed young woman of college age. As I pushed myself into the center of this action with my rangefinder cameras, I suddenly understood that the young lady was the Nazi and the tough-looking folks were anti-Nazis. She was shouting that she too had rights to express her views until someone in the crowd punched her and gave her a bloody nose. My newspaper ran a series of pictures something along the lines of "Nazi gal gets decked." I also was chased some blocks for taking photographs of various pro-Nazi marchers who weren't afraid to march in public but who didn't want their march recorded for posterity. There also was perhaps a bias on part of the photographer to attend and record this event. A photographers whole job is to look at the world and focus on only those fleeting moments that catch his or her biased eye.

Anyway, rangefinder cameras were largely responsible for the development of modern photojournalism, so there is always a place for photojournalism on a forum such as this.

formal · 10-03-2005

These look like journalistic type photos, but they are also making a political statement. I think all documentary photography has some objective and therefore, makes a statement and is biased. It is up to the view to exercise critical analysis.

They belong in the gallery.

varjag · 10-03-2005

Vince, are your rally/protest shots accessible anywhere?

MacDaddy · 10-03-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by TPPhotog

He owes you NO explanation what so ever as to his politics or beliefs. If he was to do that then everything he posted could and would be judged by some as political statements.

Roman don't let those that want to take over and censor everything that they don't agree with drive you out. You have many friends here with the same open mindedness as yourself.

censorship |?sens?r? sh ip| noun the practice of officially examining books, movies, etc., and suppressing unacceptable parts : i.e; details of the visit were subject to military censorship. —Webster's International Dictionary
..and WHERE did you get the idea I was suggesting censorship? I'm merely stating the fact it would help ME understand what he was trying to portray if he'd given some indication what was going on and IMHO, would help defuse this type of flaming rhetoric! When I start posting, I expect to add either titles or comments that indicate my thought processes in taking a particular photo or series of photos as I think it would help you as viewers to understand my perspectives a bit more! Merely indicating it was his photojournalistic photos of the event would, again, IMHO, have given some clarity to what was being portrayed. I'm sorry you misunderstood what I was trying to suggest as a rational alternative, NOT censorship!

VinceC · 10-03-2005

>>Vince, are your rally/protest shots accessible anywhere?<<

I'm afraid not. I did most of my work in the pre-Internet era. I also moved to a new house earlier this year, and nearly all my negatives and prints are in storage. I was planning to get them sorted out this autumn and will hopefully post a few RF shots in my gallery.