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Old 02-21-2010   #76
Al Patterson
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Originally Posted by JPSuisse View Post
One poster asked why somebody who buys expensive cameras won't pay for software... Actually there are good reasons:

1.) A good film camera does not require me to purchase an update every 3 years when I change operating systems! I bought CS and shortly upgraded to Tiger 10.4. Acrobat never did work properly again.... Now, who's ripping whom off here!?

2.) My film camera does not collect information about me and require data to be sent to the manufacturer to "reactivate" what I purchased. Why should I pay for an invasion of privacy?

3.) I'm using a Lightroom 2 now, but since Adobe won't support PPC processors anymore, I'm changing to Bibble 5 now that it supports the M8. Here, software companies are working together to force this continual cycle of upgrades down my throat! Alas, the Captialist business model at it's best.

Actually, in my view, software is much less valuable than hardware from a customer point of view, because REAL hardware should last without having to pay for updates...

Grrr.

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You do know that the only reason you need to upgrade the hardware is that software designers will eventually write some bloated code that will require you to upgrade, after it sucks up every CPU cycle you have and then some, right?

Yes, I'm sort of kiddng, but my older desktop, which ran fine when I bought it, now has trouble keeping up when both McAfee and MicroSoft go on the web to get their updates at the same time. I blame Bill Gates...
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Old 02-21-2010   #77
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Originally Posted by wgerrard View Post
I have a twenty-something nephew. As far as I know, he doesn't own a camera, but he has a pirated copy of PS on his laptop. Go figure.

The characterization of PS as a professional tool is important. Amateurs and professionals have different needs. They also have different skills and knowledge levels. If an amateur just wants to resize his images, make them look better and palatable for web posting, then PS is a whole lot of unnecessary hassle. Adobe recognized the difference between the amateur and the pro markets when they launched PSE. That's something they would not have done if "amateur" PSE posed any threat to "pro" PS.
Sure, if we try to define "what is really necessary" in our little semi pro/advanced amateur photo world we end up with a pin hole camera and Wall Mart processing. The software part of photography is just as important as the camera itself today.
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Old 02-21-2010   #78
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Originally Posted by wgerrard View Post
I'm glad you posted that. It clarifies matters. I'm especially intrigued by this:

We maintain 2.5 times as many field marketing employees in Europe as in North America to support our creative business at a certain level of quality across local markets. However, the revenue per employee is smaller, so the overall costs per unit of revenue is 4:1 in Europe compared to North America.
Sorry, but no, I don't believe that is true. As Olsen said: We can drop the language part; we talk of English versions only, we can drop the tax part [we talk of tax free prices]. Which leaves us with 'nothing' substantial as arguments to why a CS4 should cost 30% [actually 83% - $ 500] more than in USA. We Norwegian amateurs have to direct our technical questions, in English, to USA. So, what European field support...?
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Old 02-21-2010   #79
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Originally Posted by Spoks View Post
Sure, if we try to define "what is really necessary" in our little semi pro/advanced amateur photo world we end up with a pin hole camera and Wall Mart processing. The software part of photography is just as important as the camera itself today.
I qualified my statement about what amateurs need. And the usefulness of pirating PS when you don't use a camera escapes me.
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Old 02-21-2010   #80
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Originally Posted by wgerrard View Post
The sales tax where I am is something like 7.5 percent. The legislature sometimes levies "temporary" increases of a fraction or so, and everyone whines and bitches. Yet, ask someone if they'd be willing to cut anything that actually impacted their lives and the answer is "no". They are quite happy to advocate cutting spending on services that benefit someone else.
No sales taxes where I live,, but they do take more in income taxes than the three surrounding states...

Many people seem to like the "free" government goodies paid for by others.

And I'm with those who say that one should use open software rather than pirate commercial products.
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Old 02-21-2010   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSuisse View Post
One poster asked why somebody who buys expensive cameras won't pay for software... Actually there are good reasons:

1.) A good film camera does not require me to purchase an update every 3 years when I change operating systems! I bought CS and shortly upgraded to Tiger 10.4. Acrobat never did work properly again.... Now, who's ripping whom off here!?

3.) I'm using a Lightroom 2 now, but since Adobe won't support PPC processors anymore, I'm changing to Bibble 5 now that it supports the M8. Here, software companies are working together to force this continual cycle of upgrades down my throat! Alas, the Captialist business model at it's best.

JP

Apple and Adobe did not force you to upgrade. That was your choice. Buying a software upgrade is directly analogous to buying an upgraded or new model of a piece of hardware. Buying an M9 doesn't render an M8 inoperable.

It's pretty difficult these days to find parts and mechanics for a Model T Ford.
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Old 02-21-2010   #82
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Sorry, but no, I don't believe that is true. As Olsen said: We can drop the language part; we talk of English versions only, we can drop the tax part [we talk of tax free prices]. Which leaves us with 'nothing' substantial as arguments to why a CS4 should cost 30% [actually 83% - $ 500] more than in USA. We Norwegian amateurs have to direct our technical questions, in English, to USA. So, what European field support...?
The Adobe statement does not mention taxes, and mentions languages only in relation to increased costs. The European field personnel it mentions are marketing, not support, staff.

Fundamentally, if you are arguing that Adobe products should cost no more in Europe that in America, you need to explain why other American products also cost more in Europe. Or, for that matter, why I can buy a book from Amazon in the U.S. for $20 while Amazon.UK will sell it to me for $30.
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Old 02-21-2010   #83
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Good products but they suck on customer service and keeping verions current.
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Old 02-21-2010   #84
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It's a no-win situation for Adobe. They charge a lot because they have to protect themselves from losing money to pirated software, however, if they made it cheaper, maybe more people would feel less a need to get a pirated version.

Personally, I do think their prices are a little outrageous... even more-so if they are charging double abroad. However, I pay for it because I need it for my job (Art Director) and it's the "industry standard". Personally, if Corel can make a whole suite of software for a fraction of the price and still survive I believe Adobe can to... they just choose not to.

As for alternative, there ARE some decent ones for the person who doesn't want to spend a fortune. I've heard Pixelmator is very good. iPhoto will do quite a bit for the person that just wants the basics. Gimp provides more control and is free. Have a friend who swears by PaintShop Pro. I hear the latest version of Aperture is fabulous. I've used the Corel stuff (for my job) and find it fairly powerful and similar to Photoshop and Illustrator/InDesign. Are they all as good as photoshop? Depends on what you need to do. I'd say for a lot of people they are, depending on your skill-set and needs. Some are even a lot more user friendly.
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Old 02-21-2010   #85
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Originally Posted by Al Patterson View Post
Many people seem to like the "free" government goodies paid for by others.
If you pay taxes, those "goodies" are not entirely "paid for by others. Few of us would want to live in a society to which government provided no services.

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And I'm with those who say that one should use open software rather than pirate commercial products.
So am I. I don't pirate, and I really wish open software paid as much attention to interface and usability as to software freedom. Software freedom is of no use to me if the software is hard to use and ugly. Or, not even available. I planned to run Ubuntu Linux on my PPC iMac when Apple upgraded its OS, but the Ubuntu developers abandoned iMac development. So, now I'm using an Intel iMac.
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Old 02-21-2010   #86
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Originally Posted by wgerrard View Post
The Adobe statement does not mention taxes, and mentions languages only in relation to increased costs. The European field personnel it mentions are marketing, not support, staff.

Fundamentally, if you are arguing that Adobe products should cost no more in Europe that in America, you need to explain why other American products also cost more in Europe. Or, for that matter, why I can buy a book from Amazon in the U.S. for $20 while Amazon.UK will sell it to me for $30.
Then you must explain to me how Canon and Nikon can sell their cameras to the same price (tax free) in Oslo as in Tokio (or Abu Dabi, New York etc etc.). Surely, read closely, taxes are mentioned. Adobe has been caught in the act! Now we will see what they will do.
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Old 02-21-2010   #87
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Originally Posted by DRabbit View Post
It's a no-win situation for Adobe.

Personally, I do think their prices are a little outrageous...
How would you react if the Adobe product you were depenant on cost $ 1,100 in USA, but only $ 600 in - say, Norway...?
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Old 02-21-2010   #88
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How would you react if the Adobe product you were depenant on cost $ 1,100 in USA, but only $ 600 in - say, Norway...?
Now, were I able to depreciate or expense the purchase as a business expense on my taxes, I wouldn't care.

However, as a consumer who couldn't sink the expense in my business?

I'd buy Elements or get some freeware...
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Old 02-21-2010   #89
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If you pay taxes, those "goodies" are not entirely "paid for by others. Few of us would want to live in a society to which government provided no services.



So am I. I don't pirate, and I really wish open software paid as much attention to interface and usability as to software freedom. Software freedom is of no use to me if the software is hard to use and ugly. Or, not even available. I planned to run Ubuntu Linux on my PPC iMac when Apple upgraded its OS, but the Ubuntu developers abandoned iMac development. So, now I'm using an Intel iMac.
My point regarding "free" goodies comes from the realization that I paid NO taxes last year, as my income was too low to actually pay any taxes other than SSI, so I was freeloading upon my prior years taxes and others. Well, maybe my gas taxes paid to fix the roads, but you get my point.

I agree with you re: freeware/shareware, but using the quirky products is the price you pay for not buying commercial software.
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Old 02-21-2010   #90
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do you guys realize that everything is priced differently everywhere
what, are you gonna whine to the mayor about how housing prices aren't exactly the same everywhere
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Old 02-21-2010   #91
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do you guys realize that everything is priced differently everywhere
what, are you gonna whine to the mayor about how housing prices aren't exactly the same everywhere
Well, here in the USA, two people can walk into the same car dealership, use the same salesman, and not pay the same price. While I do understand that the folks in the EU wonder why some countries pay twice as much than others for the same product, it is what it is.

Ah well, with all the snow and cold here in the Northern Hemisphere, we seem to be engaged in a time honored game of complaining about things we can't change.

At least until it is warm enough to go out and take some photos.
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Old 02-21-2010   #92
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My point regarding "free" goodies comes from the realization that I paid NO taxes last year, as my income was too low to actually pay any taxes other than SSI, so I was freeloading upon my prior years taxes and others. Well, maybe my gas taxes paid to fix the roads, but you get my point.
I am in the same situation. I was laid off in October last year and have gone on unemployment compensation since. A major part of my income this year will be the hefty tax return from last year. It is at least 10,000 $. Here in Norway you are not obliged to pay income tax on anything less than 72.000 NOK (about $ 12,200) which will reduce my tax drastically this year.
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Old 02-22-2010   #93
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As registered user of LR I was offer by Adobe a few month later to buy CS3 (CS4 was not yet avaliable) with 50 % discount. I think that it was a valid offer and I bought it. Most of people I know (I'm speaking of amateurs, like me) use "not official" copies. They are ready to pay many Euros for a camera or a lens but not for a piece of software. I think it is a cultural aspect to consider and pay for the work of other (in this case Adobe's people). My question is: are the other clever or am I stupid ?
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Old 02-22-2010   #94
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Originally Posted by wgerrard View Post
Apple and Adobe did not force you to upgrade. That was your choice.
If your computer fails after a few years, you generally can not do anything but upgrade - often you cannot even purchase the same device ot components after half a year. What's more, Adobe artificially forces upgrades through its raw suport strategy - raw converter updates are not made available for anything but the latest version, so you must upgrade whenever you buy a new camera.

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Old 02-22-2010   #95
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Originally Posted by wgerrard View Post
I have a twenty-something nephew. As far as I know, he doesn't own a camera, but he has a pirated copy of PS on his laptop. Go figure.

The characterization of PS as a professional tool is important. Amateurs and professionals have different needs. They also have different skills and knowledge levels. If an amateur just wants to resize his images, make them look better and palatable for web posting, then PS is a whole lot of unnecessary hassle. Adobe recognized the difference between the amateur and the pro markets when they launched PSE. That's something they would not have done if "amateur" PSE posed any threat to "pro" PS.
Problem is, that 80-90% of the books about photo editing use Photoshop examples. That's where the demand for Photoshop comes from. People want to learn photo editing and the first thing they learn from the books is that they absolutely need Photoshop. In those books they normally don't even mention PSE.
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Old 02-22-2010   #96
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Well, here in the USA, two people can walk into the same car dealership, use the same salesman, and not pay the same price. While I do understand that the folks in the EU wonder why some countries pay twice as much than others for the same product, it is what it is.

Ah well, with all the snow and cold here in the Northern Hemisphere, we seem to be engaged in a time honored game of complaining about things we can't change.

At least until it is warm enough to go out and take some photos.
If you look at Europe you see a maze of nations with different tax tariffs and price differences. Cars are heavily regulated. I can not buy/import a car from, say, Sweden without going through a long process which ends up with that I have to pay 30,000 $ in taxes. At least.

Add then different prices on cigarettes, booze and beer due to different tax tariffs. Or different prices of pork meat, beer or cheese due to different regimes regarding agricultural subsidies.

Borders can differ from hardly any control at all. Like between Norway and Sweden. Or with long cues of people where everybody is checked. But where the narcotics smugglers drive pass the whole cue and drive across the border with hardly no hindrance. Like between the Baltic states (the equaliant to Central America).

Take beer. A carton with 24 cans of 0,33L costs 'about' NOK 500 (ranging from 480 to 520) here in Oslo, Norway. The same carton costs 'about' SEK 300 (NOK245) in Sweden, which is one hours drive from here. The same carton costs DKK 200 (NOK 220) in Denmark. But; hold on your hat: The same carton costs 6,80 (NOK 55) in Flensburg, Germany - as long as it is German brands. We are allowed to take 'one' carton per adult person across the border to Norway, while the limit when crossing the border between Germany and Denmark and Denmark and Sweden is practically unlimited.

Taken then pork meat, cigarettes, booze, petrol etc. etc. Environmental organisations argue that a harmonisation of prices/taxes only here in Scandinavia would reduce traffic "considerably".
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Old 02-22-2010   #97
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If you look at Europe you see a maze of nations with different tax tariffs and price differences. Cars are heavily regulated. I can not buy/import a car from, say, Sweden without going through a long process which ends up with that I have to pay 30,000 $ in taxes. At least.
....
Love it, change it or leave it.
With your arguments (I would even call it whining) you clearly show that you are a "leave it" guy. Why don't you pack your things and move to the holy land of low taxes?

You are from Norway? Then your example about buying a car does not fit for the majority of the other european countries because your country choose not to be part of "economical europe". Inside "core Europe" what you describe is absolutely possible.
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Old 02-22-2010   #98
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Love it, change it or leave it.
With your arguments (I would even call it whining) you clearly show that you are a "leave it" guy. Why don't you pack your things and move to the holy land of low taxes?

You are from Norway? Then your example about buying a car does not fit for the majority of the other european countries because your country choose not to be part of "economical europe". Inside "core Europe" what you describe is absolutely possible.
There is the same tax regime in Denmark (which is a part of EU) regarding cars, - but even worse. Cars cost an additional 15 - 20% in Denmark compared to Norway. All due to higher taxes. The same high car tax regime you will find in Finland which is also a part of EU. More or less: All car producing nations in Europe have no or little car tax while the non car producing nations seem to tax them considerably. Interestingly; Denmark is the country where you can buy the cheapest cars on export - tax free. Russians seems to understand this....
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Old 02-23-2010   #99
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