Every so often...

srtiwari · 09-01-2009

I have bought and sold many items here on RFF, (as well as on PN) and the overall experience of these transactions has been quite satisfying. One gets to "meet" and correspond with new people, both parties get what they set out for, and one gets a chance to "deal" with people in a more personal way, however "virtual" this might be. Any hurdles are usually overcome quite amicably.
Every so often however, things don't go too smoothly, and no amount of "working it" helps. One is left with a bad taste in one's mouth, and a dilemma as to how best to deal with the situation, and how best to look approach future transactions.

Several months ago I bought a Hassy which caused me some pain. After weeks of not hearing from the seller, it finally arrived, in nowhere the condition it was described as. I was never able to communicate with the seller who weeks later, sent me a brief, seemingly guilt-ridden note that asked "Did you really not get the Kit ? I'm sorry". I finally sold the kit at a loss of several hundred dollars.

Unfortunately, last week a similar problem occured- I bought an M4 described as "Like New", a description repeated to me upon my specifically asking about the cosmetic condition, as I was looking for a collector grade piece. Well, the camera arrived with bright-marks, a fine superficial scratch on the top plate, and a sharp ding on the side. My attempts to contact the seller for a resolution have been to no avail, except for one quick response telling me that "it was a 40+ yr. old camera". I believe almost anyone on RFF would have graded it closer to a User/Exc, let alone a "Like New", Exc ++, or even Exc+. (I did consider posting pictures here, but thought the better of it).
At this point, there is a PayPal claim filed, and I await further word.

This is truly disappointing in a community such as RFF, where one comes as much for the camaraderie as the trading. It is bad enough to feel cheated, but worse when it happens amongst supposed "friends". Since public floggings and the "tar and feathers" routines are no longer acceptable, I wish there was a better way to deal with these occurrences.
My reason for starting thread was mainly to "Vent" my frustration, since there might not be any other recourse. But I was also curious if others have encountered this, and how they have dealt with it. In the end, I might just need to remind myself that " It takes all kinds..." ,chalk it up to experience, and move on without becoming too cynical.

Subhash

Avotius · 09-01-2009

Yeah I know the feeling. A few months ago I bought an Exakta and a Retina from a seller and though said to be in very excellent shape when I got them that was far far far from the case. The seller neglected to mention the massive haze in the retina's lens and the stiff focus of the exakta lens not to mention the viewfinder which looked like someone took a knife to the ground glass and put several gashes in it.

In the end I was out 175 dollars and the seller never responded to any of my emails or pm's. I think here on RFF we have to start looking at people who drop by just to sell things more cautiously or we risk getting taken advantage of more and more.

Rayt · 09-01-2009

Always ask for high resolution detailed pictures. If seller won't send them then don't buy it. This kind of crap happened to me too many times and I am sure to many of us. This is why online used camera dealers are still doing a brisk trade despite the auction site, et al. A pathetically funny story: a seller advertised an item as Excellent, scratch free and working perfectly. It arrived being none of those and also heavily brassing. He then argues that he was being truthful because heavy brassing is not the same as scratches. LOL. So I am out a few hundred.

Vic · 09-01-2009

Sorry to hear of this mishap.

(1) As Ray said, always ask for high resolution pictures from ALL angles, and full descriptions of condition, including all major and minor defects, stating clearly what your expectations are, and if not met, would be a deal breaker.
(2) Most important: If you don't know the seller, always pay with Paypal using your Credit Card. Then you have full protection.
(3) Only buy via other methods of payment from people you've dealt with before and whom you trust.

Do you have any way of getting your money back?

Jamie Pillers · 09-01-2009

The posts above that suggest that by using PayPal and your credit card you somehow have protection. This is NOT true. Only if you conduct the transaction through an eBay sale AND use PayPal do you have protection. Transactions here at RFF are not recognized by PayPal as anything they need to protect.

I had that experience recently. I filed a complaint with them about a deal gone bad here at RFF. PayPal's response was simply that they would 'watch' that seller in the future and if other bad sales occur they might resort to pulling that person's PayPal previledges.

Chriscrawfordphoto · 09-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie Pillers

The posts above that suggest that by using PayPal and your credit card you somehow have protection. This is NOT true. Only if you conduct the transaction through an eBay sale AND use PayPal do you have protection. Transactions here at RFF are not recognized by PayPal as anything they need to protect.

I had that experience recently. I filed a complaint with them about a deal gone bad here at RFF. PayPal's response was simply that they would 'watch' that seller in the future and if other bad sales occur they might resort to pulling that person's PayPal previledges.

That's why you use a credit card to pay through paypal. Then your bank or card issuer will take the money from Paypal, and there's nothing Paypal can do about it....so Paypal will have to take it back from the dishonest seller if they want to get back the money your card issuer took from them.

ron1945 · 09-02-2009

i agree with chris but it does leave abad taste in the mouth,do you name n shame? put it down to experience?or curse the seller out?we take people at face value on rff,and that is how it should be.i say make them resolve the problem or find some way to stop them selling on rff

K14 · 09-02-2009

Beware of the people who have 0 posts on this forum that try to sell their products. They have no intention of RFF integration with the community here. That is #1 on my check-list when I'm shopping here.

Thardy · 09-02-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by ron1945

i agree with chris but it does leave abad taste in the mouth,do you name n shame? put it down to experience?or curse the seller out?we take people at face value on rff,and that is how it should be.i say make them resolve the problem or find some way to stop them selling on rff

I take a look at the classifieds every so often and see something i like, but then I notice that the seller has just joined and has zero history here (those zero posters seem to have nice gear for sale) . A person has to be a member of the community before shaming would have an effect.

ron1945 · 09-02-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thardy

I take a look at the classifieds every so often and see something i like, but then I notice that the seller has just joined and has zero history here (those zero posters seem to have nice gear for sale) . A person has to be a member of the community before shaming would have an effect.

methinks i am to trusting but cant help myself! i like to be truthful and expect the same from others am i complete fool,or aint i finished yet?

Jamie Pillers · 09-02-2009

Chris, have you tried this? It sounds right. I maintain a cash balance in my PayPal account to buy stuff on-line, so my credit card is not used unless I buy something that exceeds the cash balance.

kshapero · 09-02-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie Pillers

The posts above that suggest that by using PayPal and your credit card you somehow have protection. This is NOT true. Only if you conduct the transaction through an eBay sale AND use PayPal do you have protection. Transactions here at RFF are not recognized by PayPal as anything they need to protect.

I had that experience recently. I filed a complaint with them about a deal gone bad here at RFF. PayPal's response was simply that they would 'watch' that seller in the future and if other bad sales occur they might resort to pulling that person's PayPal previledges.

Jamie, I hope I am one the guys on your good list.

Jamie Pillers · 09-02-2009

ABSOLUTELY! Anyone willing to admit that they are acting like a 'smarty pants' is alright by me. :-)

kshapero · 09-02-2009

Being that I will be 60 in a month, I have had my share of being ripped. I, also, have the opposite. On numerous occasions with KEH, I have bought an item in Bargain condition and darn if I didn't get near mint. I agree with previous posters about that really nice stuff here from posters with zero or 1 post. Beware.

Thardy · 09-02-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikonhswebmaster

Ditto with eBay, read feedback, even one bad one can mean trouble for you,

Ain't that the truth.

OurManInTangier · 09-02-2009

I'm very lucky that every transaction, admittedly not that many, here at RFF ( and on Ebay) have gone swimmingly.

I came very close to making an offer on a latest version 50mm Summicron in the classifieds here not so long ago but 'bugged out' when I noticed the seller had one post...which was to flag up his/her ad.

I can only agree with Fred/Photomoof/NikonhsWebMaster's sage and all encompassing advice - don't be in a rush, there'll be other examples.

The vigilante in me would like to see dodgy sellers exposed but my brain overides this kneejerk reaction and makes me think of those that may have extenuating circumstances for their lack of communication, poor description etc etc. Generally we have a very good community vibe here and I would not like to see someone driven out for a mistake. I think anyone who comes along to make a quick buck at the expense of a (fellow) member will soon be found out and disappear...I just hope that this can be done before they get to walk away with someone elses hard earned cash.

I'm too scaredy-cat to sell any gear as I really struggle to honestly grade any of it, I've given a few things away, had some stolen(

,) broken others and don't tend to buy too much so thankfully I'm not bogged down in gear!

srtiwari · 09-02-2009

I'm glad some of this is being aired out, as I suspect these glitches occur more often than most people think. And the truth is that there is no real recourse if one gets genuinely "scammed". Although the actual ad is publicly visible, the rest of the transaction often takes place privately by PMs etc. I wouldn't mind all my transactions- either as Buyer or seller- being conducted more openly, with all details from beginning to end, visible to everyone that cares to know. That might encourage the parties concerned to be completely honest and extra careful.

FrankS · 09-02-2009

Sorry to hear about your troubles.
I'm buying a camera from Raid and I couldn't feel more comfortable about it.

oldoc · 09-02-2009

Makes a difference when you deal with someone you are familiar with. My experiences have been good.
I have bought, sold, and traded. I am sure the bad deal awaits, but nothing like on ebay.
Seems every time I sell something, it has to go to Australia. Nerve wracking trip, usually. Fortunately for me and for Never Satisfied (Andrew) and others (Rob), the experience has been fine.
I won't ship anything of significant value without insisting on sending higher res photos.
I think that the seller has huge responsibility to make sure the buyer gets AT LEAST what they bargained for. Shame not all others work that way.
Sorry for your lousy experience...

ZeissFan · 09-06-2009

One of the problems is that people don't know how to properly grade items.

The term "mint" is used all too frequently here and then qualified with except for a small mark, except the shutter sticks at slow speeds or something else.

This misuse of the word "mint" has the effect of falsely increasing the other grades to the point where "good" means anything from sort of beat up to no visible rust.

The term "absolutely mint" should be banned. It's either mint or it's not. It's like being absolutely pregnant. You're either pregnant or you're not.

And physical damage should always be noted.