M9 conceptual sketches

[Harry Lime]

I put these together and was curious to see what people think.
The first approach is more traditional in nature.

Spec: Traditional design

- Heavy duty weather sealing to protect against dust and moisture.

- 'AE-L' lock button

- '-/+' button for adjusting exposure compensation and ASA (holding down
'set' button and -/+ adjusts asa)

- Much stiffer indents on the power/shooting mode lever

- 512 or 1024 Point RGB matrix metering, integrated in to the RF unit.

- Auto-ASA exposure mode. Camera adjusts asa so the shutter speed does not fall below a user specified speed.

- Live view

- Full Frame sensor if possible

- 16MP - 21MP. Preference for dynamic range over resolution.

- Uncompressed 16bit color

- No AA filter

- IR filter over sensor

- 5 fps max

- Optional heavy duty power pack (uses 2 x M8 style batteries for a total of 3)

[Tuolumne]

Crop factor?

/T

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Tuolumne

Crop factor?

/T

Hopefully full frame...

If that's still not possible, were back to APS-H (x1.33)

[Harry Lime]

This is the more modern design:

Spec Modern:

- Heavy duty weather sealing to protect against dust and moisture.

- 'AE-L' lock button

- '-/+' button for adjusting exposure compensation and ASA (holding down
'set' button and -/+ adjusts asa)

- Dial switch on rear for on/off/continuous/selftimer

-OLED readout on top plate showing shutter speed, shooting mode, frame counter, battery level etc.

- 512 or 1024 Point RGB matrix metering, integrated in to the RF unit.

- Auto-ASA exposure mode. Camera adjusts asa so the shutter speed does not fall below a user specified speed.

- Live view

- Full Frame sensor if possible

- 16MP - 21MP. Preference for dynamic range over resolution.

- Uncompressed 16bit color

- No AA filter

- IR filter over sensor

- 5 fps max

- Optional heavy duty power pack (uses 2 x M8 style batteries for a total of 3)

[marke]

Cool, Harry. How about a thumb rest?

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by marke

Cool, Harry. How about a thumb rest?

That's a tough one.

Obviously we no longer have an advance lever and it's not coming back.
Thumbs up! may block the AE-L and EV compensation buttons.

I though about a thumb rest that pivoted out of the top plate, but I'm not sure how crowded it is in there...

Hopefully the edges of the AE-L or EV buttons will provide some grip.

It's a tough one. It would be simple to add a small thumb and palm rest to the back of the camera, but everyone would probably freak out, because it would change the shape of the body...

[Faintandfuzzy]

Interesting. I think the battery level indicator is kind of a waste, but maybe people will like it. I would like to see just a bit more of an indent and extension....kind of like a small grip to make it a bit more stable in hand.

A 16 mp sensor is all that is needed for a camera designed to be handheld. Any more than that is wasted unless you're using a tripod all the time. For me, huge dynamic range as highlight latitude is more important to gid rid of that digital look. A 16 bit A/D convertor and 12+ stops would be nice. Improved metering to better work with the increased DR and latitude would be welcome.

Oh heck....just give me Tri-X and an M7 and I'll be happy.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Faintandfuzzy

Interesting. I think the battery level indicator is kind of a waste, but maybe people will like it.

On the battery pack? That's so you can check the level, without it being attached to the camera.

I would like to see just a bit more of an indent and extension....kind of like a small grip to make it a bit more stable in hand.

Well, I didn't want to get lynched for changing the body shape. I guess you could add a grip, like Tom A is working on.

A 16 mp sensor is all that is needed for a camera designed to be handheld. Any more than that is wasted unless you're using a tripod all the time.

I wanted a little more resolution for cropping.

For me, huge dynamic range as highlight latitude is more important to gid rid of that digital look. A 16 bit A/D convertor and 12+ stops would be nice. Improved metering to better work with the increased DR and latitude would be welcome.

Oh heck....just give me Tri-X and an M7 and I'll be happy.

I hear ya brother. 12 stops and 16it (or more).
Still shooting Tri-X...
;-)

[sonofdanang]

Originally Posted by Faintandfuzzy

Interesting. I think the battery level indicator is kind of a waste, .....

Well, firm/software battery life predictors are excellent. I work in the extreme cold quite often and the only way to avoid all kinds of problems is to know when to switch (nods to those who remember the Tareyton ads) batteries.

Full-frame will have to be the spec. And spend, spend, spend on that A-D converter....

[35mmdelux]

Must be FF and sub $5000.

[Bill Pierce]

[quote=Harry Lime;977380]I put these together and was curious to see what people think.

Harry -

I'm deeply flattered that you chose to put the M9 thread on this subsite, subdivision or whatever you call it on the rf forum. I really think there have been some amazing and intelligent threads as of late.

I'm also grateful because I have been working like mad and haven't had an intelligent thought in a week.

Bill

[kuzano]

[quote=Bill Pierce;977422]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I'm also grateful because I have been working like mad and haven't had an intelligent thought in a week.
Bill

My work does not require intelligence either!!

[dfoo]

I would rather a jog wheel for exposure compensation, and a similar wheel on the opposite side of the camera for ISO.

[ali_baba]

my issues are as follows.

i find that i use my shutter finger to move the ss dial when metering.

i find that i use my thumb (and a thumbs up) to hold the camera (i use an m8 handgrip as well).

I don't think putting those controls where the thumb rests is a good idea at all.

if you give back the advance lever that's one thing, as it can be used to hold the camera. yet as is this just wouldn't work for me at all.

i think the wheel should be out front and the thumb space should be a grip or advance lever for a true discreet mode.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by ali_baba

my issues are as follows.

i find that i use my shutter finger to move the ss dial when metering.

i find that i use my thumb (and a thumbs up) to hold the camera (i use an m8 handgrip as well).

I don't think putting those controls where the thumb rests is a good idea at all. if you give back the advance lever that's one thing, as it can be used to hold the camera. yet as is this just wouldn't work for me at all.

i think the wheel should be out front and the thumb space should be a grip or advance lever for a true discreet mode.

Well, I highly doubt that the advance lever is ever going to come back, so we may as well forget about that.

I don't think the buttons on the rear of the top plate will be a problem.

For one thing we hold the camera with two hand, cradling it from below to operate the lens. Your thumb can probably rest just ot the left of the AE-L button or between it and the EV buttons.

The AE-L and EV buttons are supposed to be right under your thumb, so you can operate them without taking your eye from the viewfinder. The problem with putting EV compensation on a dial is that you then need to look at the EV compensation readout in the viewfinder, which forces you to take your eye off the action. If instead EV comp. is operated by a button, you simply count the amount of clicks you are making and know exactly how much you have changed exposure. One click equals a change of -/+ 0.5 EV. Two click would mean -/+1 stop. A dial doesn't allow that sort of blind control. That's one thing I hate about my D700 and the lever on the R8/R9.

[dfoo]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

If instead EV comp. is operated by a button, you simply count the amount of clicks you are making and know exactly how much you have changed exposure. One click equals a change of -/+ 0.5 EV. Two click would mean -/+1 stop. A dial doesn't allow that sort of blind control. That's one thing I hate about my D700 and the lever on the R8/R9.

I don't know about the D700, but the 5d jog wheel is "clicky". Therefore with a wheel it would be the same thing... count the clicks. The advantage of a wheel over buttons is clear. Harder to accidently push, one control instead of two, easier to operate blind.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by dfoo

I don't know about the D700, but the 5d jog wheel is "clicky". Therefore with a wheel it would be the same thing... count the clicks. The advantage of a wheel over buttons is clear. Harder to accidently push, one control instead of two, easier to operate blind.

I was a Canon shooter for several years (1-V) and had a 5D, before I sold it and went Nikon (D700), because I really disliked the EOS ergonomics.

One particular problem was that the dials would move quite easily, if brushed up against. The large dial on the back of my 1-v/EOS controlled shutter speed or AF points and every time you let the camera rest against your body, it would move change your settings. You could lock it, but that was a PIA in practice.

You're right that you can count the clicks on a dial wheel, but it's much harder to do, especially when you are moving or in the of the middle action. Just imagine yourself trying to delicately spin that dial one click, 2mm, while you are being pushed by a crowd at a demonstration and trying to keep track of the action. I've done it and it stinks. Pressing a button is faster and more intuitive.

It is surprisingly difficult to accidentally press one of the these button. I know that from shooting with both EOS bodies and the D700. Both the AE-L and EV buttons would have a rim that surrounds them, making it difficult to activate them, unless you deliberately intend to. The current buttons on the M8 need this rim, because they are very easily depressed by your palm when the camera is gripped.

[victoriapio]

I like ALMOST every suggestion, but would vote against the additional space required by "super battery" array. Keep the body small, small.

Great ideas and a very interesting thread.

O.C.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by victoriapio

I like ALMOST every suggestion, but would vote against the additional space required by "super battery" array. Keep the body small, small.

Great ideas and a very interesting thread.

O.C.

Thanks.

The external battery pack would be optional for heavy duty or prolonged use. Wedding shooters and journalists would probably want it. It should be no bigger than a Leicavit or Rapidwinder.

Without the optional battery pack the camera would be the same size as an M8.

[samoksner]

I don't think it needs any menus at all.

Have a nob for shutter speeds, a nob for ISO and MAYBE a selector for preset WB, no auto WB to keep internal computer stuff to a minimum. A selector switch for RAW, JPG, RAW + JPG and that's it. So what, we've added 2 nob /lever/selectors compared to an M6?

I don't need an LCD to see what I shot, i don't see what i shoot on film! It's a leica, with no mirror blackout, their is no reason to not know what you got when you got released the shutter. And to be honest, I don't see what I need an LCD for on my Canon 5D except to look at images (and I only do that because it's irrisistable to not look at what I just shot, but when my LCD was broken and I had no image review, I was almost glad)

If the sensor could be 1.3 or better crop that would be awesome, i can deal with 1.3x. As for frames, i would love to be able to select frames ONE at a TIME. The lever can individually select 28,35,50,75,90,135 (or the equivalent considering the magnification). I hate having my 35 frame crowded by some junk in the middle, but then again, I'm quite used to my M6 so this is very minor. How about a little red light that comes on in the very far corner of the rangefinder when i only have space for 25 pictures left on the card?

I don't need AE, don't need a top LCD, or a back LCD, just the usual M7 meter readout in the rangefinder as long as shutter speeds are displayed.

I would love to have a shutter crank, so that it doesn't make that sound the M8 makes right after taking a picture. Winding the crank could be like turning the camera ON so that we don't encounter the issues that the M8 switch had (swithcing from S to C and worse to self timer). A good old style self timer, the wind back on a spring type, works for me. A crank would also alow for better grip like we are used to on film M and act as an ON OFF switch, pull it out for ON, keep it in for OFF.

I don't however, care much for the bottom plate design of the M8, I understand the legacy behind it, and it's fine on my M6, but for digital, it's overkill, however, if it means Leica will save money by producing less parts by keeping the bottom plates generic, that's fine.

You don't need to make it out of brass, make it out of the polycarbonate stuff the use for Canon / Nikon digital cameras since no one is going to keep one of these for as long as they keep an M3 or any film M. If it's simple and made with a cheaper exterior, Leica will sell more and will be able to afford to make newer models more often. They could even sell the brass top and bottom plates for an extra $750 if they want to those who feel like they need it. How much can some brass plates cost? Cheaper materials since digital is not timeless.

I don't need 15fps, in fact i'd rather the camera save some electronics and not bother with multiple fps in the first place. After all, it's a leica, not a canon. As far as I'm concerned, I don't need burst at all.

I don't need shooting modes modes, or anymore flash control then i have on an M6 TTL.

The frame counter can stay

I really don't see the use of a rear LCD unless i totally forgot something, i would rather not have it use up batteries, cost more to manufacter and make the whole thing bulky.


If it's priced at $2500 and not made quite as well as an M3 , so what? As long as it's built as well as quality DSLRs are today, I would buy 1 the day it's announced. I would sell all i can the day i get it in my hands and buy a second one the day after that.
I think most people feel this way, keep it simple and consider it's purpose, it's a digital, not a timeless M3. It's a camera for everyday people that appreciate Leica glass, not for collectors, collectors won't keep a company alive, photographers will. If everyone who bought a M9 if it came out tomorrow, also bought an M10 in 4 years and an M11 4 years after that, Leica would be doing just fine.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by samoksner

I don't think it needs any menus at all.

Sorry, but almost nobody is going to buy a digital camera without an LCD display.It's just not going to happen and it's really not all that practical.

[Harry Lime]

Hey Bill

I tried to design it as a 'shooters camera'. Something that would be a viable tool for a modern day PJ, documentary or street shooter. In light of that where else to go but here for good feedback?
;-)

I have no illusions that Leica will see this and adopt any of these ideas. I'm not even sure how closely they listen to the gang at Magnum or other pros who are shooting M8 these days. It certainly doesn't seem so, judging from their recent actions.... But then again I consider the M8 a stop gap design that Leica had to rush out the door in order to stay in business... Hopefully the S2 points to the future and the M9 will be a very different beast (although I do have some beef about the S2 ergonomics...).

Feli

[Avotius]

What is the purpose of taking out TTL metering and putting it in the RF mechanism? It would make the RF even more complicated then it already is and non TTL metering systems are easily fooled by light coming from sources above the camera, ie. my old mamiya 6 would always get confused by sun shining on the meter that was not shining on the scene, ie in shadow areas.

Dont take out TTL metering, its just a step backwards. Also get rid of the white balance sensor thing, we dont want that

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Avotius

What is the purpose of taking out TTL metering and putting it in the RF mechanism? It would make the RF even more complicated then it already is and non TTL metering systems are easily fooled by light coming from sources above the camera, ie. my old mamiya 6 would always get confused by sun shining on the meter that was not shining on the scene, ie in shadow areas.

Dont take out TTL metering, its just a step backwards. Also get rid of the white balance sensor thing, we dont want that

Never intended to take out TTL metering for flash. It would probably be a dual metering system. TTL for the flash would probably remain inside the mount, as it currently is.

Unless you place the matrix meter sensor on a lollypop (in front of the shutter) like in the CL and M5, there is not other place to put it but in the rangefinder. The M does not have a mirror like an SLR, that the sensor can meter off of or though. The only mirror it has is in the RF unit.

In practice the whole metering system would be transparent to the user, just like it is now. The only difference that you would notice is that your exposures would be almost always dead on, even in tricky lighting situations.

[digitalintrigue]

Add a molded grip on the front and have a thumb-rest on the back, leaves room for the buttons.