Opinions, Please. Luftwaffen Leica IIIc....Restore Or Keep In Wartime Shape ?

[murrayb53]

I've wanted a Luftwaffe Leica Outfit for some time and have finally completed a small set. This set includes a '42 IIIc with all markings fully intact, a 35mm Luftwaffen Elmar, and a Gray Luftwaffen Everready Case.

The camera appears as though it had seen its share of use. There are a couple patches of vulcanite missing, the remaining is dried out, the slow speeds are out, and a couple dings. The higher speeds fire but who knows as to their accuracy and the RF is in fine shape.

It's not a pretty camera, but then when you really think about it, you kinda want a wartime issued camera to have seen some....action, however this camera was on the wrong side of the action. It really does make you "go back" and think of where and what it had been and seen.

The Collector in me wants to replace the vulcanite, repair the shutter, and possibly pop a couple dings, but the Historian says to leave it as-is. It's in this direction I'm leaning.

What's your opinion ?

Steve

[Steve Bellayr]

Leave the exterior alone. A CLA for the shutter speeds would be fine. Having spoke with museum curators in the past their opinion is always the same: do NOT do anything that is NOT reversible.

[FrankS]

Well, you asked for opinions...

I self-edited. OT

(I'm not saying that my opinion on this is the only or best, or that you should listen to it, but you asked.)

[Ducky]

[quote=FrankS;922415]
I'm not into war "collectables" from such a dark time for humanity, so I'd just sell it off.

quote]
OT but I don't think that was a fair comment to make to the OP. Dark times happen, it's just a camera.
I don't know about value but I'd be tempted toward a full accurate restoration.

[jarski]

edit: deleted..ot.

[eli griggs]

If you leave it as is, it's a just a relic, however, if you restore it to working condition it's a camera; which do you want more?

Eli

[murrayb53]

Hi Frank,

I fully understand and respect your position.

Steve

[lubitel]

This object is relatively rare, represents a part of history and should stay that way. whether that history is "dark" or not is irrelevant. If you wanted a Leica IIIc to photograph with I am sure you wouldn't have gotten a Luftwaffe Camera.

[murrayb53]

Correct. I have no plans to use it.
It's just an automatic reflex to clean, and restore.

Steve

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by murrayb53

The Collector in me wants to replace the vulcanite, repair the shutter, and possibly pop a couple dings, but the Historian says to leave it as-is. It's in this direction I'm leaning.

What's your opinion ?

Steve

Argh. Don't touch it! It's history.

Would you take dings out of the 'Spirit of St Louis'?

[bmattock]

Note: I am posting this only after some considerable deliberation. I am not trying to stir things up or start a fight. I felt compelled to answer, though...

When I was a kid, I often saw ads in the back of comic books, surplus dealers selling 'genuine unissued Rommel goggles' for a couple bucks. The ad urged us to 'imagine you are the Desert Fox, blitzkrieging through North Afrika in your tanks corps' or words to that effect. The kid in me thought it was pretty cool. I asked my dad for a pair of those goggles.

I never got over the hurt look he gave me. He told me my two of my grand-uncles fought the Japanese in the South Pacific, and one of my grand-uncles died in France, fighting against Germans. He asked me why I would want to own something that had been created to help German soldiers kill Americans. Just goggles? Sure, goggles never killed anyone. Nor did a camera, unless it was used as a blunt instrument, I guess. But it's tainted, from my point of view. My dad's lesson took - I'd throw it in the trash can. My 2 cents.

[monkeypainter]

Sure, goggles never killed anyone. Nor did a camera, unless it was used as a blunt instrument, I guess. But it's tainted, from my point of view.

¿Tainted?

When german or japanese warbirds perform at airshows people see what they are: magnificent machines perfectly designed. You can not blame these airplanes for the horror and evil of that times.

The guy that used to operate that leica was, probably, a good man just trying to survive to talk to his wife and childre, one more time. Maybe he volunteered for the Luftwaffe's documentary service just to avoid beeing rafted for a SS-sturmtruppen pack of psychopats.

This camera is just a beautiful piece of history.

[bmattock]

Originally Posted by monkeypainter

¿Tainted?

When german or japanese warbirds perform at airshows people see what they are: magnificent machines perfectly designed. You can not blame these airplanes for the horror and evil of that times.

The guy that used to operate that leica was, probably, a good man just trying to survive to talk to his wife and childre, one more time. Maybe he volunteered for the Luftwaffe's documentary service just to avoid beeing rafted for a SS-sturmtruppen pack of psychopats.

This camera is just a beautiful piece of history.

IMHO, no one collects Nazi memorabilia because it makes them think of a decent honest man just doing the best he could during a horrible time in the world's history. They collect it because of the cache and allure of the symbol of Nazism.

I have full sympathy for the plight of the hapless German who was conscripted and did his duty to his country as best he could - we cannot choose our nation of birth, or some of the circumstances of our lives. I just do not honor the symbols that represent that era.

If the camera was just valued for its 'historic' significance, then civilian Leicas from the same era would command the same prices - they don't. People collect them because of what they symbolize.

I do not honor those symbols. They were symbols of hatred. They belong to the past - the dishonorable section.

Sorry, just my opinion.

[bmattock]

Originally Posted by Pitxu

Geez, you americans have got to get over this sh!t.

I drink coffee most days with a german, his dad was in sub-marines in the north atlantic.
My dad was on the convoy ships from new york to england.

I don't hate Germans, or the people who served in the war. You mistake my beliefs. I merely find no worthy purpose in honoring the symbols of the former enemies of my country. I'd have coffee with your friend, too. If he showed me his prized collectible WWII-era Nazi flag, I'd blow my nose on it.

[bmattock]

Originally Posted by Pitxu

Would you do the same to a confederate flag?

Yes indeed.

[monkeypainter]

Originally Posted by Pitxu

I drink coffee most days with a german, his dad was in sub-marines in the north atlantic.
My dad was on the convoy ships from new york to england.

My grandfather flew with the germans of the Condor Legion during the spanish civil war. I have some photos of him in uniform, with some medals carrying svastikas.

He was a good man.

[bmattock]

Originally Posted by monkeypainter

My grandfather flew with the germans of the Condor Legion during the spanish civil war. I have some photos of him in uniform, with some medals carrying svastikas.

He was a good man.

I would not doubt it. You mistake my dislike for the symbols of hatred with how I feel about Germans or even Germans who fought in WWII against the Allies.

I would have been thrilled to have met someone like your grandfather, to talk to him about his experiences, how he felt about it, what it meant to him - that's history, that's worth preserving. If, on the other hand, he wanted to sell me one of his medals with a Swastika on it, I'd decline. Not the person - the symbol.

[jody36]

if u dont want camera send it to me.

[xayraa33]

I would get it CLAed and would run some film through it.
Leica Tom Eitnier would be the man to get advice from if you choose to get it professionally restored.

[monkeypainter]

I would have been thrilled to have met someone like your grandfather, to talk to him about his experiences, how he felt about it, what it meant to him

Well, he didnt't like very much to talk about the war. He had very bitter memories, he saw (and felt) a lot of hate. And never got completely rid of it.

[bmattock]

Originally Posted by monkeypainter

Well, he didnt't like very much to talk about the war. He had very bitter memories, he saw (and felt) a lot of hate. And never got completely rid of it.

My g-uncles never talked about the war, either. I didn't know them all that well. The last one died not too long ago. He was an atheist, she wasn't - he became one during the war. I visited him after his wife died a few years before he did, and he was very cranky about all the calls and cards and visits he had been getting. "She's dead, she's not in heaven, she's just gone, and her body is dust. That's it." When he went, his will stipulated no services of any kind. He gave all his money to a veteran's organization. I think about him from time to time, and wonder if he was right about there being no hereafter or not. I guess we'll all find out.

[LeicaTom]

Originally Posted by murrayb53

I've wanted a Luftwaffe Leica Outfit for some time and have finally completed a small set. This set includes a '42 IIIc with all markings fully intact, a 35mm Luftwaffen Elmar, and a Gray Luftwaffen Everready Case.

The camera appears as though it had seen its share of use. There are a couple patches of vulcanite missing, the remaining is dried out, the slow speeds are out, and a couple dings. The higher speeds fire but who knows as to their accuracy and the RF is in fine shape.

It's not a pretty camera, but then when you really think about it, you kinda want a wartime issued camera to have seen some....action, however this camera was on the wrong side of the action. It really does make you "go back" and think of where and what it had been and seen.

The Collector in me wants to replace the vulcanite, repair the shutter, and possibly pop a couple dings, but the Historian says to leave it as-is. It's in this direction I'm leaning.

What's your opinion ?

Steve

Steve,

Send me some photos of the damage/wear on the camera and I`ll let you know what I`d do. Send to my email: winkermeister@aol.com

My 1943 IIIC K has had a full CLA and also vulcanite repair with 100% original 1943 parts, it was in good condition to start with but was`nt operational, having the camera work 100% just increases the value of it, but it has to be done correctly.

Haven`t they restored the Mona Lisa once or twice now, or something like that? So you are not destroying history when you attend to a camera if it`s done properly, It`s all about conservation and proper care or restoration processes, you don`t destroy history you find a way to perserve it while also making an item functional at the same time.
(museums do it all the time)

Drop me a line when you can

Tom

[eli griggs]

bmattock, I know how you feel. I collect old battle rifles and I won't add a Nazi marked firearm to my collection until I find one with capture marks, Soviet, British or ours; a symbol of an evil confronted and lain to waste.

Nazis were all about symbols and though a tool is just a tool, a symbol is powerful because of the ideals it espouses. Nazis used images from day one to communicate those ideals and millions died because of those whom took up their 'vision'.

If any doubt that, that power still exists ,then take a moment to reflect why items like cameras and firearms that carry those Nazi symbols sell for outrageous prices when compared to identical items that do not.

Yes, there is history there, but too often there is a reverence given to these things that comes close to admiration for my taste. If it is a tool, repair it, use it, to do otherwise pays homage of sorts to those whom committed the most foul acts in the name of those exact symbols and ideals.

As to Americans getting over this, compared to the centuries of continuous and petty feuds of Europa, I'd say we're rather forgiving of our enemies and their trespasses.

ELi

[bmattock]

Originally Posted by eli griggs

Yes, there is history there, but too often there is a reverence given to these things that comes close to admiration for my taste. If it is a tool, repair it, use it, to do otherwise pays homage of sorts to those whom committed the most foul acts in the name of those exact symbols and ideals.

I would never accuse a person who collects such memorabilia of harboring any secret motives or admiration for Nazis or any such thing (although it must be said that those few people who DO admire them also often collect that sort of ephemera). I am just averse to the symbols, which, as you said, were powerfully manipulated. Hitler himself understood symbolism greatly, and the symbols of his power were carefully chosen and manipulated.

I also understand that during the various wars fought during the founding of modern-day Israel, the Israeli government did not hesitate to use Nazi weapons - actually, anything they could get their hands on. However, it certainly was not due to any fascination with Nazis. In their case, a tool really was a tool.

The test I use on myself is this - if I owned a WWII-era German camera that was military and so marked, would I feel uneasy or ashamed to show it to my best friend, who also happens to be Jewish? Could I share my pride in ownership of it with him? If not - then no, I don't want it.

[Morris]

Originally Posted by eli griggs

I collect old battle rifles and I won't add a Nazi marked firearm to my collection until I find one with capture marks, Soviet, British or ours; a symbol of an evil confronted and lain to waste.

It must be remembered that the word "evil" has purely religious connotations and should not be used in a secular sense.

The guy who wielded your firearm or camera also wore a belt buckle inscribed with the words "Gott Mit Uns". (God be with us.)

Who's side do you think God was on?