A tough decision...

[pevelg]

The majority of my shooting style is landscape. I love to get out and take long nature walks, go hiking, etc., etc. Ever since my first encounter with medium format, I've had a deep longing for the experience. I've recently sold my 5000 ED scanner, my Elmar Macro, and some other gadgets that has helped me get back on track money wise and with some to spare. My plan is to buy a Mamiya 7ii.

Ok, thats the background, now my question: What should I do with my 35mm system when I go to MF (probably within a month)? I own the M6TTL, plus the 35mm Ultron. I still want to keep a 35mm body, but I am thinking that the M6TTL is too much of an investment for the purpose it will serve; basically a backup camera and one that I can shove film through without worrying about the 10 shot limit of the Mamiya. As the rough value of the M6TTL is around ~1300, I am thinking of selling it and replacing it with another RF 35mm camera. I plan to keep the 35mm Ultron. So what camera should I get to replace the M6? I've had experience with the R3M, Zorki 4k, and FED 5. Here are some of my requirements:

1. Decent rangefinder/viewfinder (I will be using 35mm mostly, so EBL is not too critical)
2. Film loading no harder than the M6
3. LTM or M-mount (LTM preferred)
4. Cheap!!! (Preferably sub $250)
5. Reliable. I'd almost go to the Zorki due to the nice viewfinder, but the one I had seemed poor quality and needed a CLA after several months use (and it was purchased from Oleg, a reputable repairman in Ukraine).
6. I love my M6 and it's solid construction and feel, but I am willing to loose this for a cheaper camera. Never the less, I would like solid construction.
7. Non-battery dependent. Battery OK if used for lightmeter
8. Built in light meter is not necessary as I have a Gossen Pro S, but it would be nice
9. Lever film winder. So no FED 2

Now a likely recommended camera would be the Bessa R, but I would also like to hear about other cheaper options. Thanks.

[pevelg]

Reasons why the FED2 is out: Knob film winder and also no slow shutter speeds. I want something that is easy to use, something I can take anywhere any time. The Mamiya will be my serious body, the ____ for everything else.

I can probably keep the M6 and be financially OK, but I think it is just overhaul for what I need. It will be a grievous parting though.

The Canon P has caught my eye, but that would mean I'd need a new flash unit as my SF-20 does not have a flash cable option. It also runs a little high, making a Bessa R more likely.

[FX trading]

Get a user M3, M2 or M4-2- easily available for around $400 on eBay

[thomasw_]

Originally Posted by FX trading

Get a user M3, M2 or M4-2- easily available for around $400 on eBay

Well get the M2 if you only want to shoot the 35 focal length if you do change. But I suggest you be content with your current body if it is not necessary financially to downgrade.

[pevelg]

My thought is that with the money saved I can be that much closer to buying a medium format scanner or an extra lens for the Mamiya. This is indeed a tough decision for me.

EDIT: I will be watching ebay and looking at M2, M4, and Canon P cameras. So far though, only the canon seems to be close to what I wish to pay. Anyone use the P on the forum? How is it?

[drewbarb]

Huh. Take a look at large format. If you are going to use a tripod, why bother exposing a smaller negative? The gear costs about the same as medium format, (sometimes less!); the weight of a 4x5 field camera is barely more than the average medium format SLR (though RF's are lighter). But the main thing is the negatives- they are so much larger than even medium format. Plus, you get movements for perspective control and creative effects.

Except for the odd roll with the Holga or an old fashioned folder, I gave up medium format years ago. I hang onto and shoot plenty of 35mm, for carry around, hand-held shooting, but I use LF for almost everything else.

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by drewbarb

Huh. Take a look at large format. If you are going to use a tripod, why bother exposing a smaller negative? The gear costs about the same as medium format, (sometimes less!); the weight of a 4x5 field camera is barely more than the average medium format SLR (though RF's are lighter).

Dear Drew,

True, and the big negs can be scanned on inexpensive flat-beds; but the down-side is that the film holders are big, heavy and bulky (remember that the OP was worried about a 10-shot reload on the Mamiya); they are inconvenient to load and unload; and film development is much more of a hassle. To take your own argument further, don't piddle around with 4x5: if you want real advantages, switch to 5x7 inch.

But to address the original question (italics used in the hope people will read beyond the first para), anyone used to an M6 is likely to find a lesser camera to be, well, lesser. Bite the bullet (or hit the credit card) and stick with the M6. In a year or two, the extra cost will have been forgotten and you'll have top-flight kit instead of a compromise. A friend gave me this advice 20+ years ago, and I've always found it excellent: the quality stays, long after the price is forgotten.

Personally I'd go for a 'baby' Linhof Super Technika (IV or V) and two (or more) RF backs: all the movements of LF, the quality and convenience of MF, a coupled RF, and rapid changing of backs. But again, I assume the OP is set on the Mamiya 7.

Cheers,

Roger

[rolo]

Originally Posted by pevelg

basically a backup camera and one that I can shove film through without worrying about the 10 shot limit of the Mamiya. Thanks.

A basic misunderstanding on your part. The Mamiya 7 is a 20 shot camera, with the option to limit it to 10 shots, at your choosing. Makes a big difference and provides a much more useable camera.

The Mamiya is much closer to a 35mm rangefinder, in terms of operation. However the limit of f4 is extremely restrictive for hand held use in low light. The output however is much closer to 5x4 when bracketing and your real life scanner options are taken into account.

In my experience with MF and LF, a dedicated MF film scanner produces far superior results than a flat bed scanner and 5x4 film. Obviously, if you are happy to pay for drum scans nothing will compare with LF.

[pevelg]

The Mamiya 7 is a 20 shot camera, with the option to limit it to 10 shots, at your choosing.

Last time I checked, there were only 2 slide films available in 220 format, so that rules out the 20 shots.

I will not be going the LF route as that pretty much completely rules out hand holding.

After searching for HOURS upon HOURS, I still can't seem to settle down on a M6 replacement. Some cameras come close, then I come to dislike a certain feature. So, as some of you adviced, I will be keeping my M6. Tonight it is raining and thundering like no BOSE speaker can ever achieve... Thus I am taking out my M6TTL and trying to learn to capture lightning.

I guess I'll have to wait until next year to buy my dedicated MF scanner (Nikon 9000).

[payasam]

If your main or only lens will be a 35 mm, you might also consider the Bessa L with accessory finder.

[benlees]

How about a Bessa T and a decent flatbed scanner (Epson V500)? You could bet both for less than $450.

[Arvay]

Take a look at Canon Vt or 7
It seems to suit all your requirements

[spysmart]

I think your making a mistake selling the M6 ... certainly without first living with the Mamiya 7 for a while.

When I started using a Hassy 501, I sold a body and wide Leica lenses to pay for a CF 40 f/4 : Big mistake, now after a few years, I've sold the 40 and bought back the Leica lenses.

The fact that you bought a fast lens - the Ultron, means that some point you felt a need for low light shooting or photographing friends and family and for that job the M6 is the right tool.

Keep the M6, start with one lens on the M7-ii and keep shooting while saving up for the 9000ED

[pevelg]

But to address the original question (italics used in the hope people will read beyond the first para), anyone used to an M6 is likely to find a lesser camera to be, well, lesser. Bite the bullet (or hit the credit card) and stick with the M6. In a year or two, the extra cost will have been forgotten and you'll have top-flight kit instead of a compromise. A friend gave me this advice 20+ years ago, and I've always found it excellent: the quality stays, long after the price is forgotten.

Thank you and everybody else for the advice. I am keeping the M6TTL.

The fact that you bought a fast lens - the Ultron, means that some point you felt a need for low light shooting or photographing friends and family and for that job the M6 is the right tool.

I did my first night shoot with it a couple weeks back for "Relay for Life," a cancer awareness/fund raiser for cancer research. It started at 7p.m. and lasted until 7a.m. (I only made it until 5a.m.). When I reached into my camera bag, I realized I only had Velvia 100. Rats!!! I used two rolls while it was light out and then jogged a couple blocks to Walgreens and got some of there 800 film. I shot at ~f1.7, ~1/15 of a second. The results were horrible. I still need to get the Velvia processed which should turn out good. With the 800 film, it was way to grainy. Though the pictures were properly exposed, the slow shutter speed lead to several blurry shots, and those that were not were just too grainy. I am looking into getting b&w film, 800 (pushed two stops?) if I plan to do night shooting again with the Ultron. Man, a Nocti would be nice!

I just purchased the Mamiya 7 body and am now deciding on the lens to accompany it. Most likely the 65mm.

[gb hill]

I think you made a good decision to keep the M-6. You probably would of regretted it down the road.